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Wow CCP, you are really rolling the dice on the economy
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#181 - 2012-04-06 05:45:01 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
OMNOMNOM

Incoherent hisec forum warrior tears. These are only going to get better and better as these changes land and the jita camp starts.

This Jessie guy is priceless. Well worth the nerfs just for the last few pages of forum posts, screw economic repercussions I'll happily vote for further nerfing everything purely for more of his impotent whinging on the forums.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#182 - 2012-04-06 05:46:11 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Darth Tickles wrote:
OMNOMNOM

Incoherent hisec forum warrior tears. These are only going to get better and better as these changes land and the jita camp starts.

This Jessie guy is priceless. Well worth the nerfs just for the last few pages of forum posts, screw economic repercussions I'll happily vote for further nerfing everything purely for more of his impotent whinging on the forums.


There are some things ISK can't buy. They're pretty much all available on the GD forums, though.

\o/

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#183 - 2012-04-06 16:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:



Are you suggesting that High Sec income is currently equal to null sec income for any SP level?


Are you seriously suggesting that the guy who earns 1 million isk an hour and whose only expense is ammo needs the same ISK as the guy who earns 10 million an hour but has to replace clones and implants (all part of the isk sink) on almost a daily basis, not to mention ships?

Oh you make a lot more in nullsec. But you spend a hell of a lot more too. That is unless you really are a "null bear" and log off every time someone shows up in local. So you may go on about the "riches" to be had in nullsec, but I'm damned if I know, after alliance fees and sov fees and replacement costs and hauling costs and fuel costs, how you actually get to keep those riches. Money comes in, money goes out. It doesn't stick around for very long. But boy do I have more fun than I did shooting rats or rocks.

EDIT: Oh and PS - after reading some more posts, I used to "make" a lot more money mining ice in high sec. Expenses were the occasional Mackinaw. Income was a fixed 60 million an hour (or more, during the ice interdiction) with 6 accounts. Do that for 10 hours a day for a couple days a week and money is no longer a problem. In null it's almost impossible to multibox 6 accounts and live, it's certainly impossible to mine with 6 accounts because by the time you get set up some roam fleet or cloaky camper is cruising through. Null has to be approached differently.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#184 - 2012-04-06 19:14:29 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Darth Tickles wrote:
You're working with false premises here.

They don't really care about inflation because it's not game-breakingly high and it's not a real world economy. What they care far more about is risk/reward balances, mining as a player-run task, and the devaluation of acquiring ships. Those are the reasons why you're seeing the drone change and the bounty adjustments. Again, they want ships to be harder to get than they are now.

Possible ISK sinks are a whole other matter, and a distant second in importance to balancing the actual output of the economy in a way that promotes generally better gameplay.


lol Darth are you trying to use the Dark side powers to read CCP's minds? If so U are doing a bad job. CCP doesn't care about inflation because its not game wreaking?? if so that's pretty short sided on CCP's part especially with the intro of a possible huge ISK faucet (drones)

Nice to see what they care for & sure there's no lip service in what you are saying they care for Roll
CCP would be VERY, VERY short sided if they where wanting ships to be harder to get than they are now for newbies because they'd be seeing ALOT of unsubs from them... if CCP DEVs were smart they'd make the tier 1&2 BC's & BS's easier to get but look at the HUGE cost spikes in Drakes!!! If CCP was making the tuffer hi end BS+ ships & T3's ( and super CAPs) to get then it'd be a much wiser route but I foresee the mineral loss not appreciably making them as expensive a difference then the lower end ships percentage wise.

I hope there is a piece in the economy that CCP is currently keeping close to their vest and will release on the 24th with the rest of Escalation because without a ISK sink or bounty nerf there'll be ALOT of turbulence ( although I guess some rocky economic period would add somespice to the game as long as it isn't hurting subsscriptions )
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Adunh Slavy
#185 - 2012-04-06 19:21:57 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
if CCP DEVs were snart they'd make the tier 1&2 BC's & BS's easier to get but look at the HUGE cost spikes in Drakes!!! If CCP was making the tuffer hi end BS+ ships & T3's to get while then it'd be a much wiser route for a gal to reach but I foresee the mineral loss not appreciably making them as expensive a difference then the lower end ships/



And the result would be more money in the system with prices dropping further. Eventually the only thing worth doing would be shooting rats in high sec. That would kill the sandbox and turn it into an amusement park.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#186 - 2012-04-06 19:51:33 UTC
A starting player, with 1-2 mill sp that went out mining for a drake say.. 6 months ago, would have to mine for X hours in a mining cruiser to get his drake. That would net him 30 mill isk.

Today, he will get 50 mill isk for the same work.

If he then sell the drake, the new player will be at an advantage because he has more isk to buy mods, invest in blue prints or speculate in mods.


The loser here is the isk heavy lazy NULL bear that is to cool to mine, do not salvage his rats and have a high-sec incursion alt. HIS work just got cut 50%.

If he instead now go out and mine along with 500 of his friends, in NULL sec, well, then he will to profit, and help drag the price on minerals down. As long as the NULL bears are 'to cool to work', they have to live with the fact that inflation will eat up their stash of ISK.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#187 - 2012-04-06 20:38:12 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:


lol Darth are you trying to use the Dark side powers to read CCP's minds?


No, I'm following fanfest presentations and dev blogs so I actually know what I'm talking about.
bornaa
GRiD.
#188 - 2012-04-06 21:40:23 UTC
I am all for higher prices.
Maybe now we will see and smaller ships that noone used because they had too much money.
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2012-04-06 22:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
A starting player, with 1-2 mill sp that went out mining for a drake say.. 6 months ago, would have to mine for X hours in a mining cruiser to get his drake. That would net him 30 mill isk.

Today, he will get 50 mill isk for the same work.

If he then sell the drake, the new player will be at an advantage because he has more isk to buy mods, invest in blue prints or speculate in mods.


The loser here is the isk heavy lazy NULL bear that is to cool to mine, do not salvage his rats and have a high-sec incursion alt. HIS work just got cut 50%.

If he instead now go out and mine along with 500 of his friends, in NULL sec, well, then he will to profit, and help drag the price on minerals down. As long as the NULL bears are 'to cool to work', they have to live with the fact that inflation will eat up their stash of ISK.





Mining for new players is already stupidly better than Mission Running. New player can wipe in a Level 1 mission before he upgrades to a destroyer(assuming he knows a destroyer exists). If the new player doesn't understand you can warp out in seconds and just how fast you can die, he is guaranteed wipes. Many wipes. Without "max" frigate and skills, Lvl 1 missions can blow up a frigate fast and that is exactly the kind of situation a new player is in.

New player doesn't buy Targetting skill? Well that is a GOTCHA. Now he kills ships fairly slowly, having to cumbersomely change locks, and continually retarget as ships die. Yes, you don't notice it with Target-4 and six simultaneous locks, but new players do.

Progression in mission is also broken. Without the skill Connections-3, even a newbie with a Cruiser has to grind Level 1's to get Level 2's. With Connections-3 he starts out at Level 2s. No explanation.

And any other of dozens of skill fails.

The missions also pay about 1/3 of what a new player(1 day old) can make mining. If a new player gets racial mining frigate, level 1 industrial, and jetcan mines he can easily make 800,000 ISK/hr.

Even with a destroyer, it is doubtful that a new player will beat mining Veldspar in 1.0 space.

So missions have already been kind of nerfed.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#190 - 2012-04-06 22:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Darth Tickles wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:


lol Darth are you trying to use the Dark side powers to read CCP's minds?


No, I'm following fanfest presentations and dev blogs so I actually know what I'm talking about.



Funny how 2 people can listen to the same thing then come to opposite conclusions in may diiferent ways, huh? Do you really think CCP's actions which are doubling the price of Drakes making them more tuff to get is thier intention? Right now the highest end ships (Titans ) prices are not anywhere close to doubling like with Drakes ( probably dropping in price lately, no? They'll I bet not be more difficult to purchase & I bet after the next nerf thier prices won't increase appreciably due to lack of demand ( not becuase the lack of minerals but lack of usefullness compared to pre nerf )
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Adunh Slavy
#191 - 2012-04-06 22:30:25 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:

So missions have already been kind of nerfed.


That thought right there, is the light at the end of the tunnel. Stick with it.

BTW, since that noob is not shooting rats, none of that ISK came into the economy either. Idea

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
The Racketeer
Doomheim
#192 - 2012-04-06 23:38:43 UTC  |  Edited by: The Racketeer
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Who would have thought that the (grand name) Military Inferno Patch would be the best industry patch ever. Twisted


"Industry stimulus package"

It increases PvP witch will increase ship losses and increases mineral value through loot and drone poop nerfs all at the same time.
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2012-04-06 23:47:55 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Montevius Williams wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:
You want to make changes for some kind of perception that the economy is broken.

OK, I get that. But nobody in their right mind would change so many things in such a complicated system in such short order as you are. I already posted a thread with the changes that are happening in the next 7 weeks, and now I read about the elimination of meta 0 items from loot drops. Yes, I recognize this merely moves the wealth from the mission runners to the miners and industrialists.

But are you planning on changing SO many things simultaneously, you will be introducing chaos into the economy.
Sure, eventually it will all settle and new equilibriums reached.

But at what cost? How many subscribers are going to throw their arms in the air with frustration and pack it in?
You might get them all back, maybe. I would suggest why risk it?

Slow down the process. Change things slowly, iteratively. Not all at once.
If a real life economist suggested making all these changes in such a short span in a 400,000 person economy, they would be fired on the spot. No one knows, especially you CCP, about where this is all going to lead. And many of us don't like change and uncertainty. No real life economy does, and Eve's economy is complex enough to emulate one.


If they are getting rid of meta 0 items from loot drops, that would be amazing. Stop letting mission runners bypass two professions at once (miners, manufacterers).



So the solution to ISK inflation is to reduce the product inputs of High Sec even more. That's not the way the real economy works. Jesus. I mean for people who ramble on and on about "player driven economy" they don't know the first thing about how an economy actually works. Yes, yes, let's FURTHER REDUCE the real product input of High Sec, that'll reduce inflation for sure!

But it does benefit Null Bears, so I suppose that makes it okay.

It will make, by itself, INFLATION WORSE.



Bottom line is, EVERYTHING in EVE needs to be player made. Why should I, as a manufactuer, have to deal with NPC's dropping the same **** I build. It's hard enough trying to sell stuff and competing against other players. Mission runners have it WAY to easy. I mean damn, they get

-Standings
-LP
-Bounties
-Salvage
-Minerals
-Loot
-Mission rewards

Im not saying take away loot, but they should not be getting the same loot that a industrialist can make. It doesnt make sense.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Jita Alt666
#194 - 2012-04-06 23:55:53 UTC
Industry Buff = Mission Ratting nerf.
Charles Case
State War Academy
Caldari State
#195 - 2012-04-06 23:57:04 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
You want to make changes for some kind of perception that the economy is broken.

OK, I get that. But nobody in their right mind would change so many things in such a complicated system in such short order as you are. I already posted a thread with the changes that are happening in the next 7 weeks, and now I read about the elimination of meta 0 items from loot drops. Yes, I recognize this merely moves the wealth from the mission runners to the miners and industrialists.

But are you planning on changing SO many things simultaneously, you will be introducing chaos into the economy.
Sure, eventually it will all settle and new equilibriums reached.

But at what cost? How many subscribers are going to throw their arms in the air with frustration and pack it in?
You might get them all back, maybe. I would suggest why risk it?

Slow down the process. Change things slowly, iteratively. Not all at once.
If a real life economist suggested making all these changes in such a short span in a 400,000 person economy, they would be fired on the spot. No one knows, especially you CCP, about where this is all going to lead. And many of us don't like change and uncertainty. No real life economy does, and Eve's economy is complex enough to emulate one.


I always turn to the Imperial Academy for my economic analysis
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#196 - 2012-04-07 00:51:58 UTC
The Racketeer wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Who would have thought that the (grand name) Military Inferno Patch would be the best industry patch ever. Twisted


"Industry stimulus package"

It increases PvP witch will increase ship losses and increases mineral value through loot and drone poop nerfs all at the same time.



"Industry stimulation package" will be interesting since Jita will be burning while Hulkageddon will be raging EvilRollPirate
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#197 - 2012-04-07 11:50:32 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:

"Industry stimulation package" will be interesting since Jita will be burning while Hulkageddon will be raging EvilRollPirate


Yeah, that's going to be an interesting time. Less minerals being trucked in from the drone regions, plus less minerals from the meta-zero module drops, plus miners having to scatter to the four winds and mine in grav sites.

Still, it's player-driven content, which is a good thing (as long as the harvest-build-destroy circle stays balanced).
Falcon Tastic
Doomheim
#198 - 2012-04-07 12:01:05 UTC
If these changes allow mining to become profitable I will happily fly out to the belts and afk mine. At current levels it is not worth it. I am pro these changes.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#199 - 2012-04-07 17:51:54 UTC
Falcon Tastic wrote:
If these changes allow mining to become profitable I will happily fly out to the belts and afk mine. At current levels it is not worth it. I am pro these changes.


Have fun AFK mining during Hulkageddon... I'm suremany will be using their agent locators on you after that post Evil
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
#200 - 2012-04-07 19:19:02 UTC
Time to cry out for the end!

Odyssey: Repacking in POS hangars for modules +1,  but please for other stuff too, especially containers. Make containers openable in POS hangars.