These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Titan changes - update

First post First post First post
Author
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#661 - 2012-04-06 19:40:46 UTC
Lanasak wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Greyscale:

What about removing DDs, reducing Titans bonus to XL weapons to a flat 125% (and leaving XLs unchanged), and adding a new class of turrets specifically for Titans that allow them to do similar DPS to their current XL setups but with 2-4x the gun signature size. Then go through the DB and douple/quadruple the size of capship sig radii as appropriate to match.


By "flat 125%" do you mean 25% per level or "ahahaha **** your titan V skill" 125% role bonus?



I was thinking role bonus 125% to XLs, with a %/level bonus for the new XXLs, but you could do a per level bonus for both, I guess.
MisterAl tt1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#662 - 2012-04-06 19:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: MisterAl tt1
Double, sorry
Psihius
Perkone
Caldari State
#663 - 2012-04-06 23:25:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Psihius
I do not know if this was mentioned, but for this:
Quote:
- Introduce an attribute that lets us scale turret damage based on raw unmodified sig radius, and set this to approximately capital-size on XL weapons

You will effectively kill capital farming in Wormhole space, because Sleeper Guardians have a base sig of 350 and turrets have 1000 sig resolution. Right now you can hit them pretty solid - just slow them down with webs and shoot. But if you throw 3-4 ships with 2-4 painters each it does wonders with the damage and ability to track targets. Down side? You need like ~10 real people to pull it off (not 10 characters, but really around 10 living persons sitting at their computers and doing stuff).

So my point is - the resulting signature should count, not the base signature (and this partially makes those solo multi-boxer life in C5-C6 much harder and encourages people interaction). If people want to shoot subcaps from titans - they will have to bring support with painters. Together with correcting the tracking it should force people to bring webbing ships on the field too (and they have to get pretty close to the targets).
Ripard Teg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#664 - 2012-04-07 05:26:02 UTC
Quote:
- Stop people from refitting their ships while they're being targeted.


Ben Booley and I talked this over and we have an alternate solution.

Stop people from refitting their ships when they have an aggression timer. This will stop aggressive Titans and Dreads from refitting while still allowing bait / cyno / triage carriers not being aggressive to do so.

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.

Ripard Teg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#665 - 2012-04-07 05:36:34 UTC
Oh, and on the larger issue: Greyscale, I respect you, but you're not thinking this through.

Refitting in mid-combat is an emergent game-play mechanic that encourages creativity and player skill over skill points and blobs. You should be encouraging this and pushing it down to smaller alliances and corps (through a Tender-class ship, for instance, plug plug), not removing it where it exists today. Your statement that corps and alliances should be using SMAs as forward refitting points unfortunately shows that you don't understand how combat refitting as a tactic is being used in the field.

SMAs are fine for wormholes and for massive sov invasions. But sometimes you just want to get 20 friends together and roam 20 or 30 jumps into the other guy's space and cause a little havoc. A roaming gang is already at a massive disadvantage thanks to the defeders's POSs, stations, ability to reship and refit, free repairs, jump bridges, intel, etc etc etc. What's wrong with giving the people doing the roaming the maximum number of advantages possible when they get there?

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#666 - 2012-04-07 06:54:02 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
Oh, and on the larger issue: Greyscale, I respect you, but you're not thinking this through.

Refitting in mid-combat is an emergent game-play mechanic that encourages creativity and player skill over skill points and blobs. You should be encouraging this and pushing it down to smaller alliances and corps (through a Tender-class ship, for instance, plug plug), not removing it where it exists today. Your statement that corps and alliances should be using SMAs as forward refitting points unfortunately shows that you don't understand how combat refitting as a tactic is being used in the field.

SMAs are fine for wormholes and for massive sov invasions. But sometimes you just want to get 20 friends together and roam 20 or 30 jumps into the other guy's space and cause a little havoc. A roaming gang is already at a massive disadvantage thanks to the defeders's POSs, stations, ability to reship and refit, free repairs, jump bridges, intel, etc etc etc. What's wrong with giving the people doing the roaming the maximum number of advantages possible when they get there?

You need to write a post about this ... being on page ∞ of this thread, it likely is not going to get read. One of your posts is likely to catch the eye of someone at CCP and it should/could get passed onto to CCP Carebear Greyscale.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#667 - 2012-04-07 07:10:43 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
Quote:
- Stop people from refitting their ships while they're being targeted.


Ben Booley and I talked this over and we have an alternate solution.

Stop people from refitting their ships when they have an aggression timer. This will stop aggressive Titans and Dreads from refitting while still allowing bait / cyno / triage carriers not being aggressive to do so.


Because everyone enjoys shooting a thing and then having to wait 15 minutes to refit their ship regardless of what's going on at the time.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#668 - 2012-04-07 07:14:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mechael
I'd be in favor of modifying in-space fitting so that it comes with some sort of timer. Instant fitting should only be an option when docked. Armor plates shouldn't be able to magically and instantly appear on your ship just because you're sitting next to a carrier (or a Tender, which is a great idea!)

I'd say that being immobilized for the duration of the fitting operation (say, one minute? 30 seconds? 5 minutes? open for debate?) would be a good compromise. The farther we can take this concept away from "push / to switch weapons" while still keeping this cool emergent tactic in the game the better.

EDIT: You could think of it as having a pit crew. How quickly they can change out a ship's modules. Could be based on ship sizes, it being easier (faster) to change fittings with smaller ships, or few modules changed out. Could even be a skill for it, if that sounds reasonable. Carriers could have faster refit times than Tenders (assuming CCP adds in Tenders.) And so on, so forth.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.

Ripard Teg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#669 - 2012-04-07 07:14:47 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:
Quote:
- Stop people from refitting their ships while they're being targeted.


Ben Booley and I talked this over and we have an alternate solution.

Stop people from refitting their ships when they have an aggression timer. This will stop aggressive Titans and Dreads from refitting while still allowing bait / cyno / triage carriers not being aggressive to do so.


Because everyone enjoys shooting a thing and then having to wait 15 minutes to refit their ship regardless of what's going on at the time.


Sorry, good call. Meant a 60 second aggression timer, not the full 15 minute timer.

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.

HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#670 - 2012-04-07 19:15:35 UTC
Mechael wrote:
I'd be in favor of modifying in-space fitting so that it comes with some sort of timer. Instant fitting should only be an option when docked. Armor plates shouldn't be able to magically and instantly appear on your ship just because you're sitting next to a carrier (or a Tender, which is a great idea!)

I'd say that being immobilized for the duration of the fitting operation (say, one minute? 30 seconds? 5 minutes? open for debate?) would be a good compromise. The farther we can take this concept away from "push / to switch weapons" while still keeping this cool emergent tactic in the game the better.

EDIT: You could think of it as having a pit crew. How quickly they can change out a ship's modules. Could be based on ship sizes, it being easier (faster) to change fittings with smaller ships, or few modules changed out. Could even be a skill for it, if that sounds reasonable. Carriers could have faster refit times than Tenders (assuming CCP adds in Tenders.) And so on, so forth.

This might well work better, and since the intention is to make supercap refitting less practical without neccessarily impacting smaller classes to the same extent, the refit timer could even scale according to the ship size (it takes longer to move those modules into place when the fitting slot is 10km away at the other end of the hull).
Raivi
Perkone
Caldari State
#671 - 2012-04-07 19:21:42 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:
Quote:
- Stop people from refitting their ships while they're being targeted.


Ben Booley and I talked this over and we have an alternate solution.

Stop people from refitting their ships when they have an aggression timer. This will stop aggressive Titans and Dreads from refitting while still allowing bait / cyno / triage carriers not being aggressive to do so.


Because everyone enjoys shooting a thing and then having to wait 15 minutes to refit their ship regardless of what's going on at the time.


Sorry, good call. Meant a 60 second aggression timer, not the full 15 minute timer.


Problem with that idea is that once the crimewatch changes come into effect, repping someone with aggression will give you the 60 second aggro timer (this is a good change but it makes using aggro timers for refitting less helpful).
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#672 - 2012-04-08 05:54:59 UTC
HELIC0N ONE wrote:
This might well work better, and since the intention is to make supercap refitting less practical without neccessarily impacting smaller classes to the same extent, the refit timer could even scale according to the ship size (it takes longer to move those modules into place when the fitting slot is 10km away at the other end of the hull).

Makes sense. Considering how fast a carrier can move, and the size of a titan, replacing it's armor membrane or something would take a while.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

SOG Soap
Thunders Claw Fleet
Fraternity.
#673 - 2012-04-08 07:02:23 UTC
Titan sucks!!!!
Sigras
Conglomo
#674 - 2012-04-08 19:12:08 UTC
Is there any way that we can get CCP to reconsider their position on removing combat refitting as an option for pilots?

I really dont think such a sweeping change should be made in a "quick, surgical adjustment to solve a specific issue"

Im of the same opinion on the XL gun damage scaling because this is a totally unprecedented change, but that, i can live with. (can we at least get the siege module tracking penalty removed?)

Im just not sure that you guys fully understand the ramifications of what is going on here, or just how critical the ability to refit is to a triage carrier or a dread in siege. I think you many unintentionally be nerfing small gang warfare; i understand the need to balance for the masses, but does that necessitate screwing over the minorities? isnt there a middle ground we can find?
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#675 - 2012-04-08 19:58:42 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Is there any way that we can get CCP to reconsider their position on removing combat refitting as an option for pilots?

I really dont think such a sweeping change should be made in a "quick, surgical adjustment to solve a specific issue"

Im of the same opinion on the XL gun damage scaling because this is a totally unprecedented change, but that, i can live with. (can we at least get the siege module tracking penalty removed?)

Im just not sure that you guys fully understand the ramifications of what is going on here, or just how critical the ability to refit is to a triage carrier or a dread in siege. I think you many unintentionally be nerfing small gang warfare; i understand the need to balance for the masses, but does that necessitate screwing over the minorities? isnt there a middle ground we can find?


IIRC they already said (when they first announced the 50% tracking cut) that siege modules would lose the penalty.

Greyscale are you guys done reading this thread?
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#676 - 2012-04-08 22:11:39 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:


Greyscale are you guys done reading this thread?


Check calendar. Its easter holiday. Greyscale should be back on Tuesday at the latest.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#677 - 2012-04-09 01:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:


Greyscale are you guys done reading this thread?


Check calendar. Its easter holiday. Greyscale should be back on Tuesday at the latest.


Check thread. There have been no dev posts for ~4 days. I wouldn't expect them to be replying on a weekend-- it's the part where they stopped replying during the week that had me wondering.

I'm just wondering if they're still taking comments or if they've got an idea what they want to do now and have run off to do ~*dev magic*~ about it.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#678 - 2012-04-09 02:43:44 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:

I can see the logic behind this suggestion, however it will drastically limit tactical options. How is this for a "mid point":
Non-targeted ships can refit as current mechanics stand
Targeted ships suffer the same capacitor penalties when refitting that ships suffer when off-lining and on-lining modules.


This is interesting.



Yes; this would at least slightly handicap supercaps when refitting in a large battle. I say slightly because with a decent triage fleet supporting you, the energy RRs can cap you up fairly fast. it will depend on the neuting pressure your fleet is under as to how effective this is; if you are under no neuting then you will be able to refit fairly regularly (every few minutes?) but if you are being neuted to hell and back, you will have to choose wisely.

I think that refitting, targeted or not, should dump your cap and any shield extenders you have, just like we w-space denizens suffer when faffing about in w-space.

Since we are on mid-battle logistics, you should not be able to swap ships when targeted; this would eliminate the cowardly orca on the lowsec gate farce which Heretics get into from time to time. Just sayin'
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#679 - 2012-04-09 03:02:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
Ganthrithor wrote:


Check thread. There have been no dev posts for ~4 days.


Easter holiday in Iceland is a 5 day holiday.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#680 - 2012-04-09 05:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
How did a Titan balancing thread get de-railed to a combat re-fitting discussion? So what if supers can refit .. the main problems with supers have nothing to do with that. And before that the discussion got side-tracked into nerfing the titan's guns through tracking/sig res reductions, etc. Seriously, the guns on a titan are nothing compared to the dps and the alpha of the 1 DD alone, which unlike the dread, does NOT require Siege.

Every way I look at it, the problem with the Titan is the DD, specifically the alpha and the dps. The problem with the MOMs is the dps. Hence the term, Supers Online. Flying any other ship, esp. non-super caps, is foolish with the threat of supers, which is everywhere thanks to cynos. Nerfs to super EHP and to log-off escapes certainly helped things a little, but let's look at the real problem. DD is so OP that MOMs can barely afford to be fielded, if it wasn't for their dps. So, I say, DD to structures only and boost dps to main guns to match the dread with the Titan in Siege. Siege enables DD and high gun dps. Similarly for MOMs, make fighter bombers only able to attack/hit structures. When hitting other caps, they must also use fighters. That would reduce the dps a bit while preserving the high dps FBs for strategic sov use in a manner similar to my proposed Titan change above. Both changes would probably be quite simple to make and easy to follow.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein