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New dev blog: Changes to War Mechanics

First post First post
Author
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#561 - 2012-04-06 03:18:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Reppyk wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
He's simply taking the most logical step given the pricing mechanic.
Like he did with the current mechanism. Your point ?
CCP stated that they don't want a "dec shield" (I can quote the CCP Dev during the Fanfest).

What they "don't want" and what they designed into the feature are 2 different things. Again, he's planning ahead to use the feature to its fullest. This game center very much around manipulating mechanics as much as is possible/allowed to achieve your desired ends. This is no different. I am aware they are not fond of dec shields which makes the choice for pricing all the more puzzling. But until they decide it needs changed, the logical thing to do is load up on alts and hike prices.

Point being, if they didn't want corp padding dec shields, they should have designed them into the game (assuming it goes in as stated).
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#562 - 2012-04-06 08:49:27 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Point being, if they didn't want corp padding dec shields, they should have designed them into the game (assuming it goes in as stated).
No. CCP is just clueless.
Check the Q/A of the wardec presentation if you dont trust me. The CCP Dev was surprised when someone asked about the alt paddings. He didnt see it coming.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#563 - 2012-04-06 09:48:52 UTC
Ok, new war evasion technique idea: a mega dummy alliance is created with a bunch of alts that all do nothing (maybe a cyno alliance). Think 20k cyno alts, who cares. If somebody wants to drop a wardec, they leave their alliance and join the mega dummy alliance. A week later the wardeccer has to either pay up 20000*0.5m (yikes) or drop the war.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#564 - 2012-04-06 12:16:18 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
A week later the wardeccer has to either pay up 20000*0.5m (yikes) or drop the war.
2 weeks later. Not one.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

Fyrr Deerdan
E.X.O.
#565 - 2012-04-06 16:46:34 UTC
This looked awefully like a killboard to me. In-game corp/ally killboards and campaign killboards anyone?
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#566 - 2012-04-06 17:06:41 UTC
Pretty sure that the only way wardec changes are going to turn out to be not totally ****** is if CCP Soundwave spends the next month trying to run a highsec wardec corp.

It's not as simple as people think it is.
Yiole Gionglao
#567 - 2012-04-06 18:08:03 UTC
Has the developer answered the new questions? Reading the thead i am concerned that the changes will allow big corporations to abuse the smaller ones and every combat corporation will abuse every no combat one.

I don't want to have to bribe nobody to be able to play the game, it's silly. Ugh

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an alpha / And so it's you

Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
#568 - 2012-04-06 19:02:03 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Point being, if they didn't want corp padding dec shields, they should have designed them into the game (assuming it goes in as stated).
No. CCP is just clueless.
Check the Q/A of the wardec presentation if you dont trust me. The CCP Dev was surprised when someone asked about the alt paddings. He didnt see it coming.


I watched the War system Keynote from Fanfest. I can confirm this^^. Not to mention he was extremely nervous presenting the new proposed system like a Lamb speaking in a room full of Lions. More than nervous just speaking, like he knew the system was heavily favored to Alliances and large Corps yet was still trying to cram the crap down our throats. Hmmm, wonder what type of character he plays in Eve... If he even does play.

Whomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my Autocannons 

GiveMeISK
Need More Bantams
#569 - 2012-04-06 21:30:28 UTC
Have to agree that the war system is broken. But i don't think it is that bad as some dev's think

I would like to see a max on one war dec - lets say 1B IS

Next i would like to see a heavy discount on war dec's where the defender has done damage to the aggressor
Like War dec 's is reduced by the damage done to you by the part you are decing war on
Eq - you kill my Jump Freighter worth 2 B and 2 days later i decleare war on you for free

This should go for ANY damage done in 0.0 /Low/high sec WH space etc and for any thing that goes into a kill mail
If you are on a kill mail even in a n00b ship it counts - and lets just say one week back
This would give the If you hit me - i ( and my friends ) can hit you back when i'am read

But there are a few Good points in this Blog
1) Better Killmails .. allways nice
2) Number of war decs out of the formel - Goood

From point of view the current big problems with wars are
1) Agressor NOT undocking - hiding in mains or the war dec is done by Alts
2) Neutrals help in Highsec wars

Can't see a good fix on 1 - but on 2 give the bandits 24 hours flaging as suspects where the hole eve can kill them even in highsec

The realy bad thing in the blog is
Trying to KEEP corp and members in an aliance that was war deced.
What did you take - a number of wars is done to make corps or alliances go PUFF



Grikath
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#570 - 2012-04-06 23:29:22 UTC
Yiole Gionglao wrote:
Has the developer answered the new questions? Reading the thead i am concerned that the changes will allow big corporations to abuse the smaller ones and every combat corporation will abuse every no combat one.

I don't want to have to bribe nobody to be able to play the game, it's silly. Ugh



You mean: Just as happens on a daily basis currently? sheesh.Roll

Can you get it through your head that there is no such thing as a non-combat corp in EVE. Period?
The Entitlementalists may have created the Myth of Safety, but it's nothing more than that.. a Myth.

Highsec isn't "Safe".  Neither is it a playground for bullies and bottomfeeders. So stop complaining and start playing the game already.

Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#571 - 2012-04-06 23:38:54 UTC
GiveMeISK wrote:

From point of view the current big problems with wars are
1) Agressor NOT undocking - hiding in mains or the war dec is done by Alts


That seems a very selective view on the problem of alts. What about people using alts to haul, scout, run PvE, to avoid the aggressor? Never mind NPC corps which are immune to wardecs.

My point being the use of, and problems of alts is definitely not restricted to the "aggressor" or wardecer, but a universal problem in avoiding consequences that is at least as applicable, if not significantly more so, to the defender or receiver of a wardec.
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#572 - 2012-04-07 03:28:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Yiole Gionglao wrote:
Has the developer answered the new questions? Reading the thead i am concerned that the changes will allow big corporations to abuse the smaller ones and every combat corporation will abuse every no combat one.

I don't want to have to bribe nobody to be able to play the game, it's silly. Ugh


I think the message CCP is sending (but doesn't seem to realize it) is if you don't want to fight in hisec you can't have POSes, and you can't be in a player corp. The first message is fine, the second is kind of silly. Either people want to fight or they don't. If they don't want to fight you can't force them. Leave hisec for ganking and allow a separate mechanic for POS sieges. The whole idea of unsafe safe space and authorized griefing is strange.

The more i think about it, the more im inclined to think that wars should only be allowed to be mutual. POS sieges should be handled separately, or wars should only allow to attack structures (until the corp engages in defense with ships, and even then it should be treated as normal non-permanent aggression). People will evade wardecs by having haulers/miners/other alts and there will be no targets just as before. Ultimately CCP can't allow to grief people anywhere anytime for a fee (wardec individuals), so the whole exercise is moot. People are now forced into an inconvenience - dropping into an NPC corp. Wardec is inherently asymmetric warfare (people who like to grief effectively always have an advantage because presumably they don't mind wasting their time chasing war targets whereas war targets generally don't want to engage), so it's griefing. I don't see a reason why people should be allowed to grief others. This will create an explosion in hauler alts and allow hisec POS removal, nothing else functionally. It will also annoy a ton of people who don't want to engage in wars and make them quit corps. It will not create more engagements, just more irritation. Why defend when you don't want to and you can drop out? Otherwise do mutual only wars. Why have a hisec pos when you can have a losec one? What's the advantage? Any number of people can join the aggressor corp at any time, so effectively there's no heads up on attacker's strength. The only way it would make sense if a restriction was also placed on people joining the aggressor corp for a week.

Actually i think this should definitely be considered - disallow joining the aggressor corp/alliance for a week or have a 5-10% new member cap per week, so at least there's some sort of advance warning of the size of the aggressor, otherwise there's really no advantage in having hisec poses. If the size of aggressor grows over the marging, the war is automatically cancelled and they have to re-declare.

Also i think the fee should be based on max or better yet, a sum of member counts of either aggressor or defender so that big corps would think twice before engaging much smaller targets.

Also quoting from SonicLover's blog:
Quote:

>>who is it for? Is it for large alliances wanting to extent their nullsec wars to empire space? Is it for hi sec entities for settling their differences? Is it to make it easier for people attacking other people that don’t want to fight? Should it be a career path for corporations or even alliances? All or none of the above?

>>With the changes currently in the pipeline we do realize that wars become a bit more hardcore and harder to avoid. But the line that is being drawn in the sand here is that if you’re in a player run corporation, then war is something you must be prepared to tackle. The ally system and the surrender with enforced peace do give options beside just duking it out (or docking for a week), but if you absolutely do not want to be war decced, then the only option right now is to be in a NPC corp. This is not an optimal solution and we might iterate here in the future, but this is the direction we’re taking right now.


I think it's clear that CCP is kind of asking the right questions and does realize that it's a bit silly to put people in player corps at an inherent disadvantage. Quoting again for clarity here:

Quote:
But the line that is being drawn in the sand here is that if you’re in a player run corporation, then war is something you must be prepared to tackle. but if you absolutely do not want to be war decced, then the only option right now is to be in a NPC corp. This is not an optimal solution and we might iterate here in the future, but this is the direction we’re taking right now.


Why?? I think CCP either needs to formulate different objectives before enacting this change (because it doesn't change anything but add annoyance and allow removal of hisec poses). The removal of hisec poses is fine and good. Annoyance is not. So I think for now, at least until the goals of this change are better formulated, CCP should explicitly stick to only allowing hisec pos removal or mutual wars. The enforced annoyance/griefing part of this change is useless since it can be evaded.
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#573 - 2012-04-07 04:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Something else i'm pretty sure CCP is going to run into is a risk of pissing off more people than they think. The proponents of wardec/grief whoever i want are far more vocal than thousands of hisec dwellers who don't even read this stuff so the feedback you are getting here is very disproportionate and is skewed towards hardcore players.

Instead of this stuff may i suggest to work on an automated team tournament system. That will be way more fun, fair and create plenty of destruction. Not only would people willingly lose their ships but they'd pay for it! The tournament installations could be player built massive structures deployable either in hisec or low/null sec and would consist of an enclosed space (probably a cube of 8 grids 512x512km or something like that like a 256km radius sphere or bigger like 1024km or a more interesting forcefield topology). Once entered, the grid cannot be left until the other party is either eliminated or the time is up (stalemate). There would be tournament entry fees and prizes presumably. Tournament hosts could also tweak rules etc such as 4v4, 8v8 or whatever and assign points to ships etc (player-driven balance). There would presumably be an option to penalize total time spent cloaked. Deploying the tournament cube in hisec would be very expensive but draw bigger crowds. CONCORD would also tax all tournament fees. This could create an interesting dynamic where different tourney hosts compete against each other. The tournament installations would be subject to destruction by wardecs that would now only allow to attack installations. Presumably lo/nullsec tourneys would allow caps and supercaps :)
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#574 - 2012-04-07 04:41:56 UTC
Dream Five wrote:

Instead of this stuff may i suggest to work on an automated team tournament system. That will be way more fun, fair and create plenty of destruction.


Shocked You're trolling right?
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#575 - 2012-04-07 05:02:36 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
[quote=Yiole Gionglao]The whole idea of unsafe safe space and authorized griefing is strange.

Honey, playing the wroooong game hehehehe

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#576 - 2012-04-07 05:07:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
[quote=Yiole Gionglao]The whole idea of unsafe safe space and authorized griefing is strange.

Honey, playing the wroooong game hehehehe


The proponents of wardec/grief whoever i want are far more vocal than thousands of hisec dwellers who don't even read this stuff so the feedback you are getting here is very disproportionate and is skewed towards hardcore players. This doesn't fit with the general direction of CCP trying to make the game more friendly for new players. Presumably there will be an influx of new players with the release of DUST514.

There's only one NOIR and there's thousands of people in hisec who don't want to have anything to do with it/will evade it just as before by dropping to NPC. My point is not that griefing is bad, it's that either don't allow griefing or allow it, rather than make it avoidable.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#577 - 2012-04-07 05:23:26 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
The proponents of wardec/grief whoever i want are far more vocal than thousands of hisec dwellers who don't even read this stuff so the feedback you are getting here is very disproportionate and is skewed towards hardcore players.


Prove it!

While perhaps not a casual forum poster, I do consider myself to be a casual player, and all my characters live in High Sec atm, you do not represent me Dream Five, but as it happens on many issues Alekseyev does. It would be charitable to call your statement that your opinion is the majority view in EVE as conjecture, most would call it bullshit.
Nohb Oddy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#578 - 2012-04-07 07:21:59 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
The proponents of wardec/grief whoever i want are far more vocal than thousands of hisec dwellers who don't even read this stuff so the feedback you are getting here is very disproportionate and is skewed towards hardcore players.

I disagree. The 'hardcore' players are the ones int he game right now blowing ships up, camping gates/stations, taking out PoSes, can flipping, or other griefing/war/PvP this very moment. It is the more 'casual' people like yourself who are being camped into a station 'unable' to leave who are logging onto the forum to voice you words of hate towards these systems while everyone else is in the game learning how to use the system and actually ... well ... playing the game. Therefore, people of your opinion are disproportionate and skewed on these forums.

Nohb Oddy likes you.

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#579 - 2012-04-07 08:41:28 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
[quote=Yiole Gionglao]The whole idea of unsafe safe space and authorized griefing is strange.

Honey, playing the wroooong game hehehehe


Maybe the wrong game is getting the right subscription trends. Roll

It's dumb beyond words to punish people for being in a NPC corp and then punish them for being in a player corp...
bornaa
GRiD.
#580 - 2012-04-07 08:49:10 UTC  |  Edited by: bornaa
Xorv wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
The proponents of wardec/grief whoever i want are far more vocal than thousands of hisec dwellers who don't even read this stuff so the feedback you are getting here is very disproportionate and is skewed towards hardcore players.


Prove it!

While perhaps not a casual forum poster, I do consider myself to be a casual player, and all my characters live in High Sec atm, you do not represent me Dream Five, but as it happens on many issues Alekseyev does. It would be charitable to call your statement that your opinion is the majority view in EVE as conjecture, most would call it bullshit.



People will prove it to CCP when this is released.

People will not change their gameplay stile.
If they like peace and can not get it - CCP will feel it on their wallet.
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)