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Now that the botters and RMTers are banned...
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Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
#181 - 2012-04-06 13:04:23 UTC
Vanir Tsero wrote:
You clearly don't understand what "Pay to Win" actually is.

Pay To Win is where you pay real money for ships that are not obtainable in game with Isk.

For Example:

If CCP Sold a Tech 4 Battlecruiser for $25.00 That is considered Pay to Win.
If CCP Sold Tech 3 Ammo for $15.00 for a count of 5,000 That is considered Pay To Win.

If CCP Sold an In-Game item for $20.00 that can be traded in game for in-game currency... That is NOT Pay To Win.
Why? Because it gives noone an advantage. The 600,000,000 ISK I got from selling the Plex on the market, 7,000 other players just made by running Incursions for a few hours.

Your ignorance bothers me for some reason. :(


I actually like to see pay to win in this game, since you can lose it all! That's why I don't bother for PLEX. I really like to enjoy killmails telling the story of a precious and exclusive T4 Dreadnought ripped apart. I can already feel the bliss of someone's tears rolling down rich cheeks. I am worried about non-destructable designer jeans though...

Odyssey: Repacking in POS hangars for modules +1,  but please for other stuff too, especially containers. Make containers openable in POS hangars.
Deryk Kyeld
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2012-04-06 13:05:52 UTC
LOL OP you're a loser, stop worrying about how people use their IRL money to pay to play internet spaceships. Anyone who thinks selling PLEX for ISK gives you an unfair advantage is an idiot. You're foregoing a month of play-time and being payed in ISK for it , where's the disadvantage to others outside that transaction?
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#183 - 2012-04-06 14:16:49 UTC
I thought the idea of the game was to have fun? If someone has limited funds or time in RL and CCP offers them a legitimate way to get some ISK to spend on having fun in the game, who cares.

I'm against people buying advantages with RL cash, I've seen it in other games and heard people gloating about it, but I don't see a problem with PLEX, it counters the ISK sellers, gives CCP revenue, helps people to continue playing the game and allows those selling the PLEX/GTC to simply enjoy the game in the same was as someone who went out to grind the ISK with no particular advantage.

If I felt that there were special perks being afforded with PLEX/GTC then I'd be against them, but if it allows others to keep playing and allows those using them to make up for their lack of time in the game, why not, everybody wins in the end.

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#184 - 2012-04-06 17:07:19 UTC
GondriA wrote:

why plex is a form of pay to win?



There will always be a significant percentage of players (read n00bs) who fervently believe that bigger ships and shinies = automatically winning every fight. These are usually the people who need to be ganked a little more, so that they learn that just like in real life, you get ahead through who you know and who your friends are, and how many of them you have.

Now you just go ahead and drop those dreads on someone's POS. The dreads with officer modules you bought with PLEX. Pay to win, right? Except the guy knows someone who has a certain alliance that specializes in supercaps on "speed dial" and those guys are bored and always looking for an excuse to gank with their Nyxes and Titans... and suddenly "pay to win" turns into "ohsheet cyno, 40 subcaps, we're bubbled and here come the fighter bombers...."

Noobs will never understand that ISK has always been irrelevant in EVE. EVE is won through skills and more importantly - friends.
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#185 - 2012-04-06 20:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Aranakas
There's a difference between buying a game of monopoly for $20 and the banker suddenly declaring in the middle of the game that he'll accept $20 bills for $1000 in game money. It ruins the spirit of the game. The fools who give the banker their money may think they've won, but all they've done is cheated themselves AND the other players and made a crooked banker a little richer.

And if isk isn't winning the game, I don't know what is. EVE is always sold as an economy game. If there's no reason to have isk, why do alliances fight over tech moons? Obviously having isk in this game goes some way towards winning whatever anyone's definition is.

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#186 - 2012-04-06 21:37:22 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
There's a difference between buying a game of monopoly for $20 and the banker suddenly declaring in the middle of the game that he'll accept $20 bills for $1000 in game money. It ruins the spirit of the game. The fools who give the banker their money may think they've won, but all they've done is cheated themselves AND the other players and made a crooked banker a little richer.

And if isk isn't winning the game, I don't know what is. EVE is always sold as an economy game. If there's no reason to have isk, why do alliances fight over tech moons? Obviously having isk in this game goes some way towards winning whatever anyone's definition is.



The problem with the example above is not that you would be giving the banker $20 to hand out money, you would be giving a different player $20 to give you his money. You are paying another player for his time at the game, but potentially putting him in a low money situation. You are paying for teamwork, hiring help, however you want to call it out, but the banker (ie CCP) is not throwing out money at random.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#187 - 2012-04-06 21:48:46 UTC
Giving someone $20 to give you his monopoly money is still cheating and if you did that in a real game, you'd get kicked out by the other players (or at least, not invited back).

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#188 - 2012-04-06 22:56:37 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
Giving someone $20 to give you his monopoly money is still cheating and if you did that in a real game, you'd get kicked out by the other players (or at least, not invited back).


Why do you bother paying your sub if you don't view EVE as a 'real game'?

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.
Ai Shun
#189 - 2012-04-06 23:07:26 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
Giving someone $20 to give you his monopoly money is still cheating and if you did that in a real game, you'd get kicked out by the other players (or at least, not invited back).


Thus far the majority of players responding in this thread disagree with you. And CCP, by making PLEX available, does as well. The rules of this game is different to Monopoly.

You don't have to like the rules of EVE. You just have to accept that others will and will use those rules.
Hatch Nasty
Tempest Trinity
#190 - 2012-04-06 23:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Hatch Nasty
Micheal Dietrich wrote:

To use your own expression at the beginning of the thread; I worked for my money. With that said I'll spend it however I want whether it be ammo (which would be about 20 .308 rounds), Plex, or blow and hookers.


Exactly. And lest anyone think my personal priorities misplaced, I assure you good people they are not.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/hatch/priorities.jpg

EDIT TO ADD: I *wish* EVE was my most expensive hobby.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#191 - 2012-04-06 23:42:52 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
Giving someone $20 to give you his monopoly money is still cheating and if you did that in a real game, you'd get kicked out by the other players (or at least, not invited back).


Yeah, just like if you spent $20 in a poker game to get more chips, it's still chea.... oh wait, no it's not.

Different game, different rules, much like EVE.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#192 - 2012-04-06 23:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Aranakas
Ranger 1 wrote:
Aranakas wrote:
Giving someone $20 to give you his monopoly money is still cheating and if you did that in a real game, you'd get kicked out by the other players (or at least, not invited back).


Yeah, just like if you spent $20 in a poker game to get more chips, it's still chea.... oh wait, no it's not.

Different game, different rules, much like EVE.


Poker chips are essentially cash, except the casino can tax you when you cash them back. EVE isn't a gambling game or CCP would let you cash out your isk.

The goal of both monopoly and EVE is to get rich (for many players), and it is advertised as an economy game. Except not playing EVE gives you the advantage because you can make more money out of game than in it. If EVE isn't an economy game and wealth confers no advantages, It's false advertising, and CCP might as well fire that economist they keep on staff and stop posting all these figures and market details.

Once again, in simple terms:

DOES WEALTH CONFER ANY ADVANTAGES?

Yes: PLEX is pay to win
No: EVE is not an economy game

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#193 - 2012-04-07 00:08:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Corina Jarr
Aranakas wrote:

DOES WEALTH CONFER ANY ADVANTAGES?

Yes: PLEX is pay to win
No: EVE is not an economy game

Yes: you can more easily replace losses.
No: doesn't give you a lick of skill, and you will likely lose everything if you think more money = win.


An advantage does not = win. It just gives you a better chance than if you did not have that advantage.

EDIT: also EVE isn't an economy game, it is a PvP game. It just has a nifty economy along with it.
GondriA
A Totally Anal Conceited Organization
#194 - 2012-04-07 00:13:09 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
[quote=Ranger 1][quote=Aranakas]
No: EVE is not an economy game


Another mistake u do but that i will let u to learn that in time....
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#195 - 2012-04-07 00:29:37 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Aranakas wrote:

DOES WEALTH CONFER ANY ADVANTAGES?

Yes: PLEX is pay to win
No: EVE is not an economy game

Yes: you can more easily replace losses.
No: doesn't give you a lick of skill, and you will likely lose everything if you think more money = win.


An advantage does not = win. It just gives you a better chance than if you did not have that advantage.


Let's try some Redacto ad Absurdum here.

CCP has stated that they wish to control the price of PLEX so 1 PLEX always sells for a controlled amount.

So if I were some eccentric billionaire and I spent a million dollars on PLEX, that would be 25 trillion isk. I could buy an entire alliance with that much isk. I could probably buy all of them. Now if that's not winning, I don't know what is.

"Good for him". You might say. Sure, someone who spends a million dollars on a videogame can do whatever the hell he liked in his videogame.

But would it be fun? It would **** up the entire economy and probably make the game a mess.

It's only because most people don't PLEX to that extent that the game remains balanced, though it is still an imbalancing factor in the game.

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#196 - 2012-04-07 00:30:53 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
So if I were some eccentric billionaire and I spent a million dollars on PLEX, that would be 25 trillion isk. I could buy an entire alliance with that much isk. I could probably buy all of them. Now if that's not winning, I don't know what is.

That would affect the plex market a good deal, surely.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#197 - 2012-04-07 00:36:49 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Aranakas wrote:
So if I were some eccentric billionaire and I spent a million dollars on PLEX, that would be 25 trillion isk. I could buy an entire alliance with that much isk. I could probably buy all of them. Now if that's not winning, I don't know what is.

That would affect the plex market a good deal, surely.


It would crash the PLEX market. CCP would probably stop selling PLEX at that point so as to avoid further collapse. Then what happens? This mad PLEXer has a monopoly on the PLEX market.

No matter what happens, that much PLEX being bought would **** up the game. It doesn't have to be 1 player doing all the buying to **** it up. In fact, any players doing any PLEX buying fucks up the game, just on a smaller scale.

So what's the point of PLEX? If an infinitely reproducable item is being sold, the logical desire is to sell as much of it as possible. But if CCP sold as much PLEX as possible, it would destroy the game experience of EVE (but it would make them rich). It's inherently a bad system for the players.

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#198 - 2012-04-07 00:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sasha Azala
AureoBroker wrote:
ISK does not garauntee "Win".
PLEX-selling ISK is not different than normal-earned ISK.
And earning ISK is a competitive challenge (can be, though), it's just time-consuming.



^ I agree with this.



Plex for isk is no real advantage.


Who has the biggest advantage, someone who can play 12 hours a day compared to someone who can only play 2 hours, when compared to someone who buys/uses PLEX compared to someone that does not?


Get rid of PLEX and limit game time might make the playing field more level, but I can't see anyone agreeing to that. Unless they only play 2 hours a day and don't buy or use PLEX.


I can't think of an MMO that has a truly level playing field, because it's not just in-game that effects the outcome.



EDIT: Although the last quoted line should read- ISK is not a
Steel Wraith
#199 - 2012-04-07 00:41:40 UTC
Another reason why RMT is not allowed yet Plex is, in addition to RMT encouraging botters, for those who care:

With RMT, because you can convert from $$ to isk back to $$, mmo gold (isk) is sometimes used as currency for various nefarious activities like renting botnets, paying for pay-per-install malware distribution, buying hacked email accounts etc. Using isk this way would be bad for CCP.

--

Anti-plex crowd seems to have retreated to calling selling Plex unfair. Is paying someone else to grind for you fair? Maybe not, but did you forget what game you are playing? Not fair is what makes this game awesome.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#200 - 2012-04-07 00:46:39 UTC
If anything, it equalizes players. Selling PLEX for ISK does give you an advantage, yes, but so does PVE or trading or other methods of direct ISK generation. Someone with a lot of free cash could generate a lot of money, yes, but so could someone with a lot of free time. The current system ensures that people with limited amounts of free time to play can still do things that require money. For people who prefer to do things which earn them lots of ISK (e.g. people who spend a lot of time running missions or incursions or WH sites), it provides something worthwhile to spend money on.

Additionally, it allows characters to have ingame ISK value. Without PLEX, only people with a lot of free money in real life would be able to benefit from alts. With PLEX, you only need a healthy amount of free ingame money or a healthy amount of out of game money.

Finally, PLEX allows people who do not otherwise want to spend RL money on EVE to justify it. I myself am a poor college student™ and while I would be able to afford an account (and definitely would if PLEX didn't exist), my life is made easier by having one less monthly expense.