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why do all amarr ships only get one bonus?
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#61 - 2012-04-06 19:33:25 UTC
PVP Harbi would cap itself out in about 4 mins. It doesn't even have rof bonus. Just think what would happen to Zealot, Armageddon or Abso.
Ashley SchmidtVonGoldberg
Doomheim
#62 - 2012-04-06 19:34:55 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Roime wrote:
Because of ~Scorch~



And Tachyon beams.



Both of these.

My nightmare with tachs can take down a mach


My nightmare with Scorch can take down a mach


(cannot be used in conjuction)

Standing in for Karn Dulake who was banned for saying bad words
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#63 - 2012-04-06 19:43:21 UTC
Gitanmaxx wrote:
I don't need years of experience to know that 2 ship bonuses is better than 1. And that with a combination of two you have more design elements to play with when developing and distinguishing ships. I have this thing called simple logic and the ability to do first grade math.


Actually, you need a deeper understanding of combat mechanics, situations, and all attributes of a weapon to say that it is "better", not just first grade math. Something you don't appear to have.

Gitanmaxx wrote:
by your own explanation you've proved my point. Every weapon system has downsides, but only amarr ships racial weapon is completely crippled by not dedicating one of their two ship bonuses to fixing an issue without actually adding a benefit.

So don't meander down your little rabbit hole of trying to say I'm arguing amarr needs a buff, or needs more damage, or that one little number somewhere needs changed. It's an idea, not a specific number somewhere I'm referring to. And that idea is that the devs are going to have trouble making amarr ship designs unique or role defined when they only ever have one single ship bonus opposed to the two that they can mix and match for other races. The capacitor bonus on amarr ships is a lame way to fix a not so great design.

A more creative, logical, and effective way of balancing lasers other than making one poor design decision to fix another poor design decision.


Okay, let's compare to a popular race that gets ~two bonuses~: Minmatar. Which commonly autocannon-fit ships have a damage bonus? Rifter, Thrasher, Stabber, Rupture, Bellicose, Cyclone, Hurricane, Tornado, Typhoon, Tempest, Maelstrom.

Oh, what's that? Looks like all Minmatar ships have a blanket bonus to low AC damage to make ACs workable! Funny, just like the cap bonus on Amarr ships! The other bonuses vary between tracking, falloff, or optimal range to give variety in roles.

Maybe that's a fluke. Let's check out the Caldari hybrid platforms! Which ones have an optimal range bonus? Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh, so... all of them? Huh! It's almost as if Railguns are only good on Caldari ships and not the other races' ships because it is only on Caldari ships that they can take full advantage of their range.

What about these pesky laser ships? Which ones have a cap bonus? Punisher, Coercer, Omen, Maller, Prophecy, Harbinger, Oracle, Armageddon, Apocalypse. Seems reminiscent of the Minmatar line-up! What about that second bonus, does it provide variety too? Well, it varies between armor tank, damage, and optimal range, so it looks like it!

The only exception is the Abaddon, which, while it is a wonderful mainline ship with its armor tank and damage bonus, has well-known cap problems, and even at perfect skills firing 8 mega pulse lasers makes it dry out in less than 5 minutes.

The lesson of the day? A ship's role is not usually defined by both of its bonuses! One of the bonuses of T1 ships just makes the weapon system it's supposed to use viable, while the second defines the role of the ship. This is as true of Amarr as it is of other races. Working. As. Intended.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#64 - 2012-04-06 19:45:43 UTC
Gitanmaxx wrote:

Where as with other races you have more to play with to come up with unique concepts or create ships that aren't black and white better or worse than each other but that fill different roles.
- the ship with speed bonus and tracking bonus for hit and run
- the ship with repair bonus and range bonus for a slow ship of the line feel
- the ship with drone damage and targeting range bonus


Those ships do not exist. Please stop pulling things out of your ass.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-04-06 19:50:17 UTC
^

No **** he was saying it would add more variety/role if they were... Hypothetical... Rather than the status quo of Cap, damage, resists, and range.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#66 - 2012-04-06 20:02:14 UTC
Kattshiro wrote:
^

No **** he was saying it would add more variety/role if they were... Hypothetical... Rather than the status quo of Cap, damage, resists, and range.

T1 ships are simple and general-purpose, not focused on specific roles. Look at T2 ships with their 4 bonuses for specific roles.

The Rupture is a general-purpose gunboat (damage, firing speed). The Muninn is a sniper (damage, firing speed, optimal range, tracking).

The Stabber is a general-purpose fast cruiser (firing speed, speed). The Vagabond is a kiting ship (firing speed, speed, falloff, damage).

The Omen is a general-purpose gunboat (cap usage, firing speed). The Zealot is a sniper (cap usage, firing speed, optimal range, damage).

The Maller is a general-purpose heavy cruiser (cap usage, resistances). The Sacrilege is a heavy active-tank brawler (damage, resistances, cap recharge, firing speed)

I should also mention that role is not defined purely by the bonuses, but also by the slot layout, base stats, and CPU/PG availability. Even if it wanted to, a Stabber would fail at sniping, as a Maller would fail at kiting, as a Caracal would fail at tanking.

Deal with it.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2012-04-06 20:08:13 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Gitanmaxx wrote:

Where as with other races you have more to play with to come up with unique concepts or create ships that aren't black and white better or worse than each other but that fill different roles.
- the ship with speed bonus and tracking bonus for hit and run
- the ship with repair bonus and range bonus for a slow ship of the line feel
- the ship with drone damage and targeting range bonus


Those ships do not exist. Please stop pulling things out of your ass.



You're right dip ****. If you stopped being a cross eyed inbred fool and could read you'd know I was showing an example of how much more design leeway they'll have with ships if they aren't tied down to this need to fix the bad capacitor design on lasers.

But that wouldn't suit your "EVERYTHING MUST BE ABOUT NERFS OR BUFFS AND YOU MUST WANT ONE OR THE OTHER ALL THE TIME!" mentality you devolved ape.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2012-04-06 20:09:24 UTC
Kattshiro wrote:
^

No **** he was saying it would add more variety/role if they were... Hypothetical... Rather than the status quo of Cap, damage, resists, and range.

Looking across T1 combat focused hulls, most races have a limited variety of bonuses, not just amarr:
Gallente: Repair and damage with tracking and MWD cap bonuses on one hull each
Caldari: Range, damage, and resist
Minmatar: Damage and repair with one hull having a speed bonus
Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2012-04-06 20:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Gitanmaxx
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Gitanmaxx wrote:
I don't need years of experience to know that 2 ship bonuses is better than 1. And that with a combination of two you have more design elements to play with when developing and distinguishing ships. I have this thing called simple logic and the ability to do first grade math.


Actually, you need a deeper understanding of combat mechanics, situations, and all attributes of a weapon to say that it is "better", not just first grade math. Something you don't appear to have.

Gitanmaxx wrote:
by your own explanation you've proved my point. Every weapon system has downsides, but only amarr ships racial weapon is completely crippled by not dedicating one of their two ship bonuses to fixing an issue without actually adding a benefit.

So don't meander down your little rabbit hole of trying to say I'm arguing amarr needs a buff, or needs more damage, or that one little number somewhere needs changed. It's an idea, not a specific number somewhere I'm referring to. And that idea is that the devs are going to have trouble making amarr ship designs unique or role defined when they only ever have one single ship bonus opposed to the two that they can mix and match for other races. The capacitor bonus on amarr ships is a lame way to fix a not so great design.

A more creative, logical, and effective way of balancing lasers other than making one poor design decision to fix another poor design decision.


Okay, let's compare to a popular race that gets ~two bonuses~: Minmatar. Which commonly autocannon-fit ships have a damage bonus? Rifter, Thrasher, Stabber, Rupture, Bellicose, Cyclone, Hurricane, Tornado, Typhoon, Tempest, Maelstrom.

Oh, what's that? Looks like all Minmatar ships have a blanket bonus to low AC damage to make ACs workable! Funny, just like the cap bonus on Amarr ships! The other bonuses vary between tracking, falloff, or optimal range to give variety in roles.

Maybe that's a fluke. Let's check out the Caldari hybrid platforms! Which ones have an optimal range bonus? Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh, so... all of them? Huh! It's almost as if Railguns are only good on Caldari ships and not the other races' ships because it is only on Caldari ships that they can take full advantage of their range.

What about these pesky laser ships? Which ones have a cap bonus? Punisher, Coercer, Omen, Maller, Prophecy, Harbinger, Oracle, Armageddon, Apocalypse. Seems reminiscent of the Minmatar line-up! What about that second bonus, does it provide variety too? Well, it varies between armor tank, damage, and optimal range, so it looks like it!

The only exception is the Abaddon, which, while it is a wonderful mainline ship with its armor tank and damage bonus, has well-known cap problems, and even at perfect skills firing 8 mega pulse lasers makes it dry out in less than 5 minutes.

The lesson of the day? A ship's role is not usually defined by both of its bonuses! One of the bonuses of T1 ships just makes the weapon system it's supposed to use viable, while the second defines the role of the ship. This is as true of Amarr as it is of other races. Working. As. Intended.



so if it was working as intended then why in the dev blog and the eve fanfest did CCP speak about how ship roles aren't defined well enough and very early design decisions have restricted their ability to be more creative with ship design leading to so many ships that aren't flown? Sounds like you're the only one who thinks it's working as intended.


This is hypothetical conjecture in the spirit of the dev blog about lack of variety and issues with half the ships having no clear role or reason to even fly. And one of the big factors to this in my opinion, for amarr particularly, is that every ship must have a bonus to cap on lasers to even make them usable. That's a bad design choice. Simple as that.

"but but scorch. but but damage. but but..." then change those things as well to fit the philosophy and fun, not limit everything because one type of ammo would be OP if you changed ships to be more varied.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-04-06 20:32:27 UTC
Gitanmaxx wrote:

so if it was working as intended then why in the dev blog and the eve fanfest did CCP speak about how ship roles aren't defined well enough and very early design decisions have restricted their ability to be more creative with ship design leading to so many ships that aren't flown? Sounds like you're the only one who thinks it's working as intended.

Most of those comments centered around the tiering of ships by design IIRC and the lack of any specific benefit with choices within a race and not the viability of one race in particular due to a specific bonus. You are applying some broad statements in ways they may not even have been intended.
Gitanmaxx wrote:

This is hypothetical conjecture in the spirit of the dev blog about lack of variety and issues with half the ships having no clear role or reason to even fly. And one of the big factors to this in my opinion, for amarr particularly, is that every ship must have a bonus to cap on lasers to even make them usable. That's a bad design choice. Simple as that.

And there are people who disagree. Caldari range and Gallente damage bonuses are designed around much the same principle of making their weapons useable in the face of other weapons systems with superior range to blasters(everything else) and superior DPS to rails(again, everything else). It's fundamentally no different.
Gitanmaxx wrote:

"but but scorch. but but damage. but but..." then change those things as well to fit the philosophy and fun, not limit everything because one type of ammo would be OP if you changed ships to be more varied.

Those things as they are represent the philosophy of lasers as I understand them:
Good damage
Great range for short range weapons
No ammo for T1, reduced consumption for T2/Faction
Greatest optimal which means better damage projection than weapons which rely on falloff for range
Best tracking at optimal, which means better damage application
Very cap hungry to balance this - Some hulls give a bonus to reduce this strain on the ships ability to leverage the other advantages
Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2012-04-06 20:38:26 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Gitanmaxx wrote:

so if it was working as intended then why in the dev blog and the eve fanfest did CCP speak about how ship roles aren't defined well enough and very early design decisions have restricted their ability to be more creative with ship design leading to so many ships that aren't flown? Sounds like you're the only one who thinks it's working as intended.

Most of those comments centered around the tiering of ships by design IIRC and the lack of any specific benefit with choices within a race and not the viability of one race in particular due to a specific bonus. You are applying some broad statements in ways they may not even have been intended.
Gitanmaxx wrote:

This is hypothetical conjecture in the spirit of the dev blog about lack of variety and issues with half the ships having no clear role or reason to even fly. And one of the big factors to this in my opinion, for amarr particularly, is that every ship must have a bonus to cap on lasers to even make them usable. That's a bad design choice. Simple as that.

And there are people who disagree. Caldari range and Gallente damage bonuses are designed around much the same principle of making their weapons useable in the face of other weapons systems with superior range to blasters(everything else) and superior DPS to rails(again, everything else). It's fundamentally no different.
Gitanmaxx wrote:

"but but scorch. but but damage. but but..." then change those things as well to fit the philosophy and fun, not limit everything because one type of ammo would be OP if you changed ships to be more varied.

Those things as they are represent the philosophy of lasers as I understand them:
Good damage
Great range for short range weapons
No ammo for T1, reduced consumption for T2/Faction
Greatest optimal which means better damage projection than weapons which rely on falloff for range
Best tracking at optimal, which means better damage application
Very cap hungry to balance this - Some hulls give a bonus to reduce this strain on the ships ability to leverage the other advantages



That was actually a well spoken argument against what I was saying. thank you.

I do disagree though that this isn't the kind of thing the devs are referring to. Yes the tier system is one aspect but they talk about how several ships can't even fit what they are supposed to fit to fill their role and several ships are redundent and pointless because others are better in every way so why use some ships. And to that point, part of that problem is caused I think by these old design choices like making every amarr ship have to have a cap bonus to lasers or it's simply impossible to use them, therefore limiting the variety of design choices they can make when creating and balancing amarr ships.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2012-04-06 20:42:42 UTC
Something to keep in mind when talking about "Amarr" is that Amarr ships are completely ******* useless and ******.

But scorch is completely overpowered. It evens out to mediocrity.

Also, gotta laugh at people talking about Tachs. 2 Ships can use them effectively, one of them isn't even an amarr ship. The other has been in the game less than three months.

Right now Scorch is the crutch upon which almost all "mainline" Amarr ships use in PvP and PvE.
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2012-04-06 21:09:46 UTC
I love Amarr ships, even though I don't have lasers trained up very high.

Every time I see a ship with "-10% energy weapon capacitor use" and no other weapon bonus, I just use projectiles on that ship.

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2012-04-06 21:10:41 UTC
Voith wrote:
Something to keep in mind when talking about "Amarr" is that Amarr ships are completely ******* useless and ******.

But scorch is completely overpowered. It evens out to mediocrity.

Also, gotta laugh at people talking about Tachs. 2 Ships can use them effectively, one of them isn't even an amarr ship. The other has been in the game less than three months.

Right now Scorch is the crutch upon which almost all "mainline" Amarr ships use in PvP and PvE.



that's kinda what I keep hearing too. And even the people who defend the design always say "but scorch." Any gamer or developer knows that something like that is a very bad design to limit so much all because one thing is OP. How about fixing that one thing instead.
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#75 - 2012-04-07 05:10:55 UTC
blah blah blah, maybe what we need is to buff the CAP reduction bonus on amarr ships for lasers to 15%, this way you keep the lasers on the the amarr ships, but they can at least use their own weapon properly.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#76 - 2012-04-07 05:16:20 UTC
Basically lasers are no longer as effective as they need to be to justify the bonuses on Amarr ships.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-04-07 06:18:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Voith wrote:
Also, gotta laugh at people talking about Tachs. 2 Ships can use them effectively, one of them isn't even an amarr ship. The other has been in the game less than three months.


Paladin, Nightmare and Oracle.

So, this is nerf Scorch thread after all?

The thing some of you don't see is that cap bonus is needed. If it gets replaced with something else you have to use cap rigs and mods just to be able to use your guns.

That means:
- lower damage (cap mods instead of damage mods)
- lower tank (cap mods instead of tank mods, not really a problem with resist bonused hulls)
- lower utility (cap mods instead of web, tracking mods or whatever you want to use your mid slots)

If you use too many slots for cap, you're doing it wrong. But let's put 4 cap rechargers to Apoc and 3 CCCs, that's a great fit!
Cyrina Manto
RBS Inc.
#78 - 2012-04-07 06:18:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyrina Manto
Once again, all the people too lazy to train t2 lasers whine in a thread.

Lasers have a higher range of engagement than almost any other weapon system. Projectile weapons have terrible damage due to falloff mechanics. The EFT damage number only applies at 2-3km, and its 1/2 of that by 15km usually.

*edit*
Its actually fairly balanced, I maybe would make lasers with scorch rely a little more on falloff. Keeping the same range but making damage at extreme ranges a bit less.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#79 - 2012-04-07 06:22:18 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
The only exception is the Abaddon, which, while it is a wonderful mainline ship with its armor tank and damage bonus, has well-known cap problems, and even at perfect skills firing 8 mega pulse lasers makes it dry out in less than 5 minutes.

Ah yes, the Abaddon, well loved by ~elite pvp~ because being able to use it well means you have succeeded at eve.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2012-04-07 06:34:46 UTC
Some laser ships are very excellent. Most are mediocre at best and the rest are completely hopeless. I could go on and on about this and that but it's been done 34592475945 times already.

This pilot has 100% perfect fitting skills and capacitor stuff are maxed out. It's as good as it gets. I still struggle to fit an Armageddon or Omen properly. Please, don't coerce my geddon down to a meta 4 medium cap booster and j5b tackling gear when Im all 5 at fitting. That ain't right. It's downright insulting tbh!

A point I'd like to make is Harbinger vs Hurricane. More specifically, welpcane vs copy cat harbinger. Please, copy cat the welpcane fit onto an Harbinger. Subdue 425mm IIs for Heavy Pulses IIs. Both ships share the exact same slot profile (8-4-6) so it should work just fine, right? Wrong! See that fitting margin? Harbinger is waaaay out of everything. Meanwhile, 'cane enjoys more than a 100 more DPS, selectable damage type and all the capacitor it wants to spend on driving the neuts, better align time and better top speed. Harbinger don't have any of that. Capping itself out means zero DPS on top of all. What's up with that?

It feels wrong...

Another example: Nightmare vs Mealstrom. Nightmare enjoys a 5% bonus to tracking per level. Maelstrom does not. Compare the base stats of an "all 5" Nightmare with Mega Pulse (multifrequency) vs a Maelstrom (EMP). 25% bonus to tracking ought to account for something, right? It doesn't. Nightmare only beat Maelstrom by a silly little 0.002. One billion ISK of that? *****, please!! I said already, it's downright insulting!

There's many ways to "fix" lasers. As a start, one need to understand that they are stuck with a 100% predictable damage profile, heavy fitting constraints as well as an heavy burden on the capacitor. Only the likes of Apocs and Zealots have the cap to fool about. The cap of these two should be the base for all laser ships. They may not have mids to go bunkers on ewar, but they need to be able to really count on their capacitors.

That's my 0.01 ISK

It knows what you think.