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the importance of T2 BPOs
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Eva Volkova
Perkone
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-04-06 14:17:05 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
Crappy ships and mods will not be manufactures as they have no value.
BPO are not causing this.



Crappy ships and mods will be manufactured if someone buys them above cost.

The are selling above BPO cost below Invention cost.

EvA
Eva Volkova
Perkone
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-04-06 14:24:23 UTC
Gizan wrote:
im currently one of the guys producing absolutions off invention. my build cost is 127mil right now, and they sell for 210, should invetion be nerfed cuz im making 70~ mil/ship?


Proof?

If data isnt wrong u better sell the components.

http://www.eve-market-guide.com/t2item.php?id=22448

EvA
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2012-04-06 14:25:19 UTC
Kenshin Tzestu wrote:
More like BPO owners can undercut people trying invention to the point that they exit the market.


Only on low-demand items, and since margins on low-demand are going to be poor anyway, why do you even bother?


On low-demand stuff, margins are low so trying invention on that field was already a bad idea.

On high-demand stuff, the volume coming from T2 Bpos is only a small fraction of the total volume, and has little effect on prices.

Anyone who think his invention margins would skyrocket, should T2 Bpos be removed, need to be locked in a padded cell.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#44 - 2012-04-06 14:35:32 UTC
Eva Volkova wrote:
Gizan wrote:
im currently one of the guys producing absolutions off invention. my build cost is 127mil right now, and they sell for 210, should invetion be nerfed cuz im making 70~ mil/ship?


Proof?

If data isnt wrong u better sell the components.

http://www.eve-market-guide.com/t2item.php?id=22448

EvA


think you missed the part where he had moons produce the mins to make it. was that your intention?

OMG when can i get a pic here
Eva Volkova
Perkone
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-04-06 15:08:47 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
[quote=Eva Volkova][quote=Gizan]im currently one of the guys producing absolutions off invention. my build cost is 127mil right now, and they sell for 210, should invetion be nerfed cuz im making 70~ mil/ship?

think you missed the part where he had moons produce the mins to make it. was that your intention?



I said he better of selling the mins if he wants to loose money its his call.

EvA
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-04-06 15:27:29 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
I've known at least 2 people in RL that stopped playing EVE as a direct result of T2 BPO's. Why would they want to play a game where some chosen player gets to mis an entire step of gameplay? T2 BPO is the reason I would never touch manufacture with a barge pole.


I call utter bull****. If you can't even converse honestly don't bother posting.
Kalipoli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-04-06 16:00:13 UTC
You know whats really crazy, you dont have to buy T2 items, and you damn well dont HAVE to manufacture them. There is good isk to be made on even T1 so personally this whole argument is screwed up by some non-carebears who want cheaper stuff and have absolutely no experience with industry.

If you cant make isk doing industry, 1: you are doing it all wrong 2: your spreadsheets suck and or dont exist.

T2 BPOs are worth keeping in game so that people who dont need to be playing EVE have an actual reason to rage quit. Im sorry but we just dont like people who *****.
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-04-06 16:04:21 UTC
Eva Volkova wrote:
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
Crappy ships and mods will not be manufactures as they have no value.
BPO are not causing this.



Crappy ships and mods will be manufactured if someone buys them above cost.

The are selling above BPO cost below Invention cost.

EvA


If inventors didn't undercut BPO owners and sell at 0 margin, that would NOT be a problem
Also, given that T2 BPO are such a gold mine, why did most orignal owners sell theirs?
Eva Volkova
Perkone
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-04-06 16:52:17 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:


If inventors didn't undercut BPO owners and sell at 0 margin, that would NOT be a problem
Also, given that T2 BPO are such a gold mine, why did most orignal owners sell theirs?


Inventors arent undecuting bpo. bpo are undercuting inventor because they have better magin.

If u are able to sell something for the profit of 2x3 years and someone buys it why not.

But thats no the point.

The point is.
- If BPO T2 are great then introduce them again.
- If BPO are a problem remove them from game.

The first owner of the BPO was the one that got the free money. If he whants to give it free o charge 10 billion dosent make the sistem better or worse.

We have two systems BPO T2 and Invention.

Thats not fair or right in any way.

If you whant to keep the BPO make their final product more expensive than the one you can get from invention and problem will be solved.

BPO T2 more expensive but no need of invention.

Invention cheaper than the BPO.

EvA
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#50 - 2012-04-06 17:44:57 UTC
Eva Volkova wrote:

The point is.
- If BPO T2 are great then introduce them again.
- If BPO are a problem remove them from game.

EvA


the answers are.
- The lottery was a mistake, invention is better and is working as intended
- There not a problem

OMG when can i get a pic here
Eva Volkova
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-04-06 18:37:24 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:


the answers are.
- The lottery was a mistake, invention is better and is working as intended
- There not a problem


how can the lottery be a mistake and not the bpo ?
Invention isnt working as intended because a small % of players using BPO t2 sell a big% of the market.
And with invention you cant compete with them.
Telling me that with invention you can make money is the same that telling me that killing rats gives you money and what?

We need a system where invention can compete in every market.

If you seem BPO T2 are good lets find a way to reintroduce them.

- Make a system so everyone has a chance to get BPO T2
- Or change BPO T2 so they are more expensive than invention (still give an advantage of no spending time doing invention)

In a game we need to look what best for the system not what is best for us.

And in no way having free card its good for anyone.

They are removing R&D agents in the same way so will be a great time to think about removing/changing/reintroducing BPO T2



EvE
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#52 - 2012-04-06 19:22:14 UTC  |  Edited by: qDoctor Strangelove
Eva Volkova wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:


the answers are.
- The lottery was a mistake, invention is better and is working as intended
- There not a problem


how can the lottery be a mistake and not the bpo ?
Invention isnt working as intended because a small % of players using BPO t2 sell a big% of the market.
And with invention you cant compete with them.
Telling me that with invention you can make money is the same that telling me that killing rats gives you money and what?

We need a system where invention can compete in every market.

If you seem BPO T2 are good lets find a way to reintroduce them.

- Make a system so everyone has a chance to get BPO T2
- Or change BPO T2 so they are more expensive than invention (still give an advantage of no spending time doing invention)

In a game we need to look what best for the system not what is best for us.

And in no way having free card its good for anyone.

They are removing R&D agents in the same way so will be a great time to think about removing/changing/reintroducing BPO T2



EvE



Guess I should not feed the Troll, but hey.....

The T2 BPO's have seeded the market with affordable T2 items across the board. High demand items was priced way up there, so, invention came to fix it, and the fix worked.

Now, should a single BPO be able to feed 2000 items a month into the market? For Warp Disruptors, this is not to bad, because they blow up all the time. Laddar ECCM Projector II however, well, there have maybe been sold 2000 of them since 2006 all in all, most to collectors.

Cut the rates that a product can be produced and the problem of T2 BPO's that you describe goes away. Make the production time of both T1 and T2 go up by 500%. The only thing it can not fix is your envy of people that invested their isk and bought the sensor booster T2 BPO at 1.2 billion isk, or the T2 ENAM at 1 bisk.. I know I envy the people that bought them for this amount back in the days..
Eva Volkova
Perkone
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-04-06 19:34:30 UTC
It isnt about envy. Its about the rules we must play with. We all play and love this game i and i would love to play in a system where everyone plays with the same rules.

CPP decided BPO T2 wasnt a good system and decide to remove it from the game.

The problem of the BPO is that they give an advantage to the ones that uses them and that they dont get destroyed with it use.

you have two systems to produce T2 items (the same final product).

The old system that CPP didnt like and the new one (invention).

If you whant to have two systems you should (in a game enviroment) balance them.

One without any work producing more expensive items (BPO T2).

And another with more work and less expensive item (Invention).

And then reintroduce BPO T2 and let people decide.

EvA
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#54 - 2012-04-06 20:26:10 UTC
Eva Volkova wrote:
It isnt about envy. Its about the rules we must play with. We all play and love this game i and i would love to play in a system where everyone plays with the same rules.

CPP decided BPO T2 wasnt a good system and decide to remove it from the game.

The problem of the BPO is that they give an advantage to the ones that uses them and that they dont get destroyed with it use.

you have two systems to produce T2 items (the same final product).

The old system that CPP didnt like and the new one (invention).

If you whant to have two systems you should (in a game enviroment) balance them.

One without any work producing more expensive items (BPO T2).

And another with more work and less expensive item (Invention).

And then reintroduce BPO T2 and let people decide.

EvA


1: CCP had seeded the number of BPO's that was to be seeded. That is why they stopped.
2: No BPO's is ever used up, live with it.
3: Invention is for the masses, and it only requires some small work to do and ISK.
4: T2 BPO requires you to get hold of items, then make items and sell, pretty much like any other activity.
5: Reintroduce T2 BPO's?? that will ruin invention for ever, making it totally BUST for the masses.


in short, you must be in Test.
Eva Volkova
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-04-06 21:24:06 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:


1: CCP had seeded the number of BPO's that was to be seeded. That is why they stopped.
2: No BPO's is ever used up, live with it.
3: Invention is for the masses, and it only requires some small work to do and ISK.
4: T2 BPO requires you to get hold of items, then make items and sell, pretty much like any other activity.
5: Reintroduce T2 BPO's?? that will ruin invention for ever, making it totally BUST for the masses.


in short, you must be in Test.



1. they stop because it wasnt a good system.
3. So in short BPO T2 are good for the elite and not for the masses ?
4. invention too + you have to do the invention so they allways are more expensive and cant compete.
5. Not if we change how BPO T2 work. If BPO are more expensive to produce but able to mass produce and Invention less expensive no mass produce. You have a choice.

this is more of the same. I have mi toy and dont whant anyone to broke it i want mi "i win button for industry".

Lets move all to invention o lets build a system that can work in unison wich each other. And after that re introduce BPO T2.

If the BPO are good lets all have them if not remove them or change them. I dont like good for me not good for anyone else.

EvA
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#56 - 2012-04-06 23:43:24 UTC
Eva Volkova wrote:
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:


1: CCP had seeded the number of BPO's that was to be seeded. That is why they stopped.
2: No BPO's is ever used up, live with it.
3: Invention is for the masses, and it only requires some small work to do and ISK.
4: T2 BPO requires you to get hold of items, then make items and sell, pretty much like any other activity.
5: Reintroduce T2 BPO's?? that will ruin invention for ever, making it totally BUST for the masses.


in short, you must be in Test.



1. they stop because it wasnt a good system.
3. So in short BPO T2 are good for the elite and not for the masses ?
4. invention too + you have to do the invention so they allways are more expensive and cant compete.
5. Not if we change how BPO T2 work. If BPO are more expensive to produce but able to mass produce and Invention less expensive no mass produce. You have a choice.

this is more of the same. I have mi toy and dont whant anyone to broke it i want mi "i win button for industry".

Lets move all to invention o lets build a system that can work in unison wich each other. And after that re introduce BPO T2.

If the BPO are good lets all have them if not remove them or change them. I dont like good for me not good for anyone else.

EvA


T2 BPO's was seeded in a fixed number.
it was not stopped because it was BAD, it stopped because they were done seeding.

Also, T2 BPO's are for heavy industrial investors... (not you) and veterans that never 'cashed in'
Eva Volkova
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-04-06 23:52:05 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:


T2 BPO's was seeded in a fixed number.
it was not stopped because it was BAD, it stopped because they were done seeding.

Also, T2 BPO's are for heavy industrial investors... (not you) and veterans that never 'cashed in'


When they introduced invention cpp said they wasnt happy how the lottery was handled.

why?
why no a new system?
why scared of change?
What is better with this sistem?
What advantages have this sistem instead of the one i have talked about?

EvA
Stella SGP
#58 - 2012-04-07 03:46:15 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Grossvogel
Eva Volkova wrote:
When they introduced invention cpp said they wasnt happy how the lottery was handled.

why?
why no a new system?
why scared of change?
What is better with this sistem?
What advantages have this sistem instead of the one i have talked about?

EvA

Many moons ago when T2 Bpo was the only way of producing T2 items, cartels formed. They offer ridiculous amounts of isk to buy up all the BPOs of the same item and controlled the prices. Peasants then had to pay 20 mil ISK for a cargo expander and 300 mil ISK for a HAC. Back then peasants whined for a good reason because cartels could control both volume and price.

CCP wanted to keep T2 manufacturing distinct from T1, but didn't like to continue with the lottery because these cartels would just keep buying up the BPOs and continue plundering the peasants. They wanted a system where anyone could participate and more importantly, scalable as EVE population grew. Thus, Invention was born

The populace of New Eden rejoiced as Invention was introduced and quickly smashed the Cartel's grip on the T2 market. Now T2 items is in abundance and everyone could afford them. A noob no longer had to save for days just to spend 20mil ISK for a cap recharger, mind you this was back in the days when LP stores didn't offer as much Faction mods

As you can see Invention is working as intended and it is not a typo error for invented BPC to carry -4 ME/-4 PE by default.

Let's keep these discussions civil, shall we? — ISD Grossvogel
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#59 - 2012-04-07 07:32:41 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Grossvogel
Stella SGP wrote:
Eva Volkova wrote:
When they introduced invention cpp said they wasnt happy how the lottery was handled.

why?
why no a new system?
why scared of change?
What is better with this sistem?
What advantages have this sistem instead of the one i have talked about?

EvA

Many moons ago when T2 Bpo was the only way of producing T2 items, cartels formed. They offer ridiculous amounts of isk to buy up all the BPO of the same item and controlled the prices. Peasants then had to pay 20 mil ISK for a cargo expander and 300 mil ISK for a HAC. Back then peasants whined for a good reason because cartels could control both volume and price

CCP wanted to keep T2 manufacturing distinct from T1, but didn't like to continue with the lottery because these cartels would just keep buying up the BPO and continue plundering the peasants. They wanted a system where anyone could participate and more importantly scalable as EVE population grew. Thus, Invention was born

The populace of New Eden rejoiced as Invention was introduced and quickly smashed the Cartel's grip on the T2 market. Now T2 items was in abundance and everyone could afford them. A noob no longer had to save for days just to buy a 20mil ISK for a cap recharger, mind you this was back in the days when LP stores didn't offer as much Faction mods

As you can see Invention is working as intended and it was not a typo error for invented BPC to carry -4 ME/-4 PE by default.

Let's keep these discussions civil, shall we? — ISD Grossvogel


This post almost made me cry.
I remember mining in a probe with Miner I's and carg expanders for weeks. And I could not use a jet can because noone I knew had a hauler. That was 80 m3 ore per minute. Then, after some weeks of mining when I had a Rupture, I got hold of some named miner lasers, so I got 88 m3 ore per minute...

fast forward ... I do missions ... get R&D points.

fast forward even more, I get some real ****** T2 prints

And then, now, 10 years later, after spending 1500 USD on each active account from 2003, there are people crying about my isk printing press.

Newsflash : according to an EVE tool I have, my total value of ALL items in EVE, after 10 years with 3-6 clients is... just about 100 billion isk all together. I guess 25-30 billion would be my T2 prints, the rest various items spread around.

for years I would get between 200 million and 400 million isk a month in profit with 6 prints. That is something like making 50 mill isk a month per print, and I do not think that is so terrible.
Eva Volkova
Perkone
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-04-07 08:25:10 UTC
you reply to mi post but you dont answerd mi questions.
i just think invention should given better items than BPO T2 because its more time consuming. More time= better results.

So please troll all you whant but eve has changed it allways is changing and thats good.

Ravens where number one but missiles change and get a nerf.
Vagabons pilgrims a nanocanes where a must but a nerf came.
titans are seem very powerfull and they have receive nerf after nerf.

Whats so important of BPO T2 that cant be changed in any way.

Ok lets keep it as they are but buff invention. whats the problem you have buffing invention?

- they should be a diference between using a 0me /0pe BPO and a full researched one.
- why not have a chance of having better BPC T2?. Better than a BPO T2 full researched. Its only a BPC and will run out but will give you something new and will be fun (like getting an officer loot in pve).

Lets make industri a better place. Lets static and with more change.

EvA