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Benefit of Passive Hardeners over Active ones?
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Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#1 - 2012-04-06 03:42:42 UTC
Leave out the capacitor factor. It seems that even if you achieve the armor compensations at lvl V, actives are still just slightly better.

Leaving out the capacitor, why should you ever choose passive specific hardeners over active? If the answer is "You shouldn't ever", then should that be changed? (AKA, do passive specific hardeners deserve a buff)
Nedes Betternaem
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-04-06 03:55:23 UTC
For fitting reasons. Thats pretty much the only reason I can come up with.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#3 - 2012-04-06 04:04:13 UTC
For shields, resistance amps provide the possibility of full passive tanks. That's huge.

For armor, fitting is big, especially when one of your options requires no CPU at all.
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-04-06 04:15:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
Azemar wrote:
Leaving out the capacitor, why should you ever choose passive specific hardeners over active?

Leaving out the beef, why should people eat beef steak if they like beef.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#5 - 2012-04-06 04:18:17 UTC
What I am trying to say is, Passive specific hardeners with their lvl 5 compensations should be better than the active versions. Thoughts?
Nex apparatu5
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2012-04-06 04:28:10 UTC
I think you really underestimate the capacitor factor.

Active hardeners provide extra resist, but the enemy can turn them off with neuts. This is why tengu fleets can be massacred by bombers.

In the current game you choose between decent resists all the time and good resists some of the time. If you buff passive hardeners there will be literally no reason to ever fit actives.
Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#7 - 2012-04-06 04:40:03 UTC
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
I think you really underestimate the capacitor factor.

Active hardeners provide extra resist, but the enemy can turn them off with neuts. This is why tengu fleets can be massacred by bombers.

In the current game you choose between decent resists all the time and good resists some of the time. If you buff passive hardeners there will be literally no reason to ever fit actives.



Well yes of course that rings true. But if i've got the armor comp for that type at lvl 5, i didnt train it up to be worse than something i can fit WHILE being stable...
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#8 - 2012-04-06 04:52:57 UTC
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
In the current game you choose between decent resists all the time and good resists some of the time. If you buff passive hardeners there will be literally no reason to ever fit actives.


Pretty much this. If max skilled passives were strictly better, comp skills would be mandatory and actives would be relegated as newb modules.
GreenSeed
#9 - 2012-04-06 04:58:33 UTC
Azemar wrote:
What I am trying to say is, Passive specific hardeners with their lvl 5 compensations should be better than the active versions. Thoughts?

absolutely not. they are passive for a reason.


and you premise of "leaving out the cap" is nonsence. the main reason passive resists even exist is simply because they still run when fully neuted.
Skorpynekomimi
#10 - 2012-04-06 05:02:56 UTC
Because it allows for a full tank even when you don't have time to activate it.

Say you jump through a gate. Your tank is on ALL THE TIME. Jumping didn't deactivate it. It's still working. Damage is still attenuated. You might have time to leg it.

Economic PVP
Archare
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-04-06 05:04:41 UTC
Also there are some fairly cheap faction hardeners which provide equal or better resists to active mods with compensation skills V...
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#12 - 2012-04-06 05:27:22 UTC
Azemar wrote:
Well yes of course that rings true. But if i've got the armor comp for that type at lvl 5, i didnt train it up to be worse than something i can fit WHILE being stable...


You don't train armor comps for cap stability reasons. You train them to get the most out of your omni resist modules and to help you with heavy neuting, where cap stability is impossible anyhow.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#13 - 2012-04-06 06:15:32 UTC
Azemar wrote:
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
I think you really underestimate the capacitor factor.

Active hardeners provide extra resist, but the enemy can turn them off with neuts. This is why tengu fleets can be massacred by bombers.

In the current game you choose between decent resists all the time and good resists some of the time. If you buff passive hardeners there will be literally no reason to ever fit actives.



Well yes of course that rings true. But if i've got the armor comp for that type at lvl 5, i didnt train it up to be worse than something i can fit WHILE being stable...


You have it upside down. There used to be active hardeners (very good resists but if neuted or imsufficient cap then nada) and passive hardeners that were plain crap and only depserate people fitted them... Then they created the comp skill to help passive tanks become more viable. Even that move was questionable and added (in armor) to the proliferation of the buffer tank...

As others have noted capless is a huge advantage. Even before the change you siggest tha passive modules would already be imba if they were also
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Kairos Eunoia
Merchants of the Golden Goose
#14 - 2012-04-06 16:38:47 UTC
@op: You cannot ignore what is most important, the capacitor requirement.

Then you go to say you're cap stable, which then leads me to think you only think of PvE.
It might come as a surprise to you, but the game is not only balanced for pve. Pvp has different concerns one of which is capactior. Like Neuts and stuff.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#15 - 2012-04-06 16:51:02 UTC
Azemar wrote:
Well yes of course that rings true. But if i've got the armor comp for that type at lvl 5, i didnt train it up to be worse than something i can fit WHILE being stable...


But you can't always be cap-stable with hardeners on. There are many fits, especially once SPRs get involved, where hardeners will mess up your cap stability completely, and this is before you even start to think about the neuting that other people have been mentioning. And there's the fitting reqs too, passive resists take up about half the CPU that active ones do.

Your understanding of the fundamental difference between the two modules is flawed if you're just shrugging off cap use in your comparison.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-04-06 16:55:27 UTC
With max skills A-type passive energised resists already give better resists than T2 hardeners. They are not that expensive either.
Adacia Calla
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-04-06 17:08:48 UTC
When you're neuted dry in a C4-C6 WH, Incursion Assaults/HQs or find a random Curse/Bhaalgorn, you won't be totally ******.

Test signature....forum not applying settings :(
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#18 - 2012-04-06 20:15:53 UTC
Azemar wrote:
What I am trying to say is, Passive specific hardeners with their lvl 5 compensations should be better than the active versions. Thoughts?


No, because actives use capacitor and can thus be neuted into inactivity. And defense that consumes cap should be superior when activated to any defense which does not. The other guy being able to _turn your defenses off_ is something that requires a good deal of balance.

(Aware others brought this up, but your "disregard the capacitor factor" bit is dumb enough that it deserves some more negative commentary)
Daphny Naarma
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-04-06 20:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Daphny Naarma
Just a quick fact: you can get neuted so that your active res turns off, but their activation costs are in the range of ONE laser turret each (and cycles for much longer), so it should be clear that it takes a crap load of neuting to keep you from re-activating your active resists for a rather (pvp wise) long cycle if you want to. Ofc there are other things that need cap, but the reason I write this is that I see a lot of people overestimating the actual cap cost of active hardeners. In terms of cap/time, it is rather minuscle.
Trade Slave
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-04-08 07:49:07 UTC
Daphny Naarma wrote:
Just a quick fact: you can get neuted so that your active res turns off, but their activation costs are in the range of ONE laser turret each (and cycles for much longer), so it should be clear that it takes a crap load of neuting to keep you from re-activating your active resists for a rather (pvp wise) long cycle if you want to. Ofc there are other things that need cap, but the reason I write this is that I see a lot of people overestimating the actual cap cost of active hardeners. In terms of cap/time, it is rather minuscle.



if your hardeners go down for say 5 sec while you are waiting there spamming the hard button then you will take alot more damage then if it had been running, also you are now doing that instead of focusing on other things. Also for caps/supers if your actives go offline your pretty much done Even Damage controls get neuted to oblivion.

i think you underestimate neuts.
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