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ISK sink via refining.
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Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-04-06 05:49:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
Whenever someone refines ores, tax them ISK, not minerals. Figure out the tax by the value of the minerals refined.

Determine the market price(Jita or average of all +0.5 sec trades) of all minerals. Weighted by volume and an average across the past week. Any price more than +/-20 percent of last average is discarded. No more than 20% of total volume discarded. If more than 20% discarded, then average for all sales.

This is a very simple SQL query.

I understand charging minerals is "elegant" in that you don't have to determine market prices, but you are like ten years in.

Do the minimal work required to create this ISK sink.

I'm telling you right now if the programmers start whining at you..... something is very wrong with your programming department. This is very easy to do. I could do it. In like a day. Anyone who has used SQL of any kind should be able to.

If you don't have an SQL database for transactions. Well then. That is very interesting in itself.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#2 - 2012-04-06 05:52:14 UTC
If you havent been paying attention the price of things has nearly doubled.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-04-06 05:53:25 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
If you havent been paying attention the price of things has nearly doubled.


The more prices go up, the more ISK it consumes!

Your point is?
Black Dranzer
#4 - 2012-04-06 05:54:59 UTC
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#5 - 2012-04-06 05:56:15 UTC
Economy Fail.

Doubeling prices is what we call isk velocity. Not isk alot of isk dissapearing.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#6 - 2012-04-06 05:57:12 UTC
I supported this (maybe even started it) in that thread about the three mechanics that I'd change in Eve.

The more efficient a refining facility is, the higher its (flat) taxes should be.

No SQL query necessary IMHO.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-04-06 05:59:07 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Economy Fail.

Doubeling prices is what we call isk velocity. Not isk alot of isk dissapearing.


Generally, more ISK=more isk velocity.

An ISK based refining tax lowers total ISK and generally should lower inflation.

I can't think of a case where it would INCREASE inflation.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#8 - 2012-04-06 06:00:30 UTC
Please, tell me more about how how you're a pro with SQL and armchair economics.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-04-06 06:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Please, tell me more about how how you're a pro with SQL and armchair economics.


Any programmer who has worked with SQL could do it.

It is very obvious change.

Darth Gustav had flat tax That would work to, perhaps not as good, but it would work.

So who hasn't it done when massive and destructive changes are being done?

Cause no one suggested it? I find that unlikely.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#10 - 2012-04-06 06:06:10 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Economy Fail.

Doubeling prices is what we call isk velocity. Not isk alot of isk dissapearing.


Generally, more ISK=more isk velocity.

An ISK based refining tax lowers total ISK and generally should lower inflation.

I can't think of a case where it would INCREASE inflation.



According to the latest economy blogs it does not
Too many people are holding onto thier isk.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-04-06 06:09:23 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Economy Fail.

Doubeling prices is what we call isk velocity. Not isk alot of isk dissapearing.


Generally, more ISK=more isk velocity.

An ISK based refining tax lowers total ISK and generally should lower inflation.

I can't think of a case where it would INCREASE inflation.



According to the latest economy blogs it does not
Too many people are holding onto thier isk.


I still fail to see how decreasing total ISK increases inflation.

I sure as *BLEEP* see how nerfing module drops will increase inflation.
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-04-06 06:14:12 UTC
But mining isn't the problem here. Mining lets zero isk into the game. A tiny, minscule isk sink like this would not affect anything and just nerf mining which is already the worst profession.

If you want to mess with some minor isk sinks, manufacturing slot costs and sales tax could use a boost (only in high sec, fees in low/null should be lower mwahahahaha)
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#13 - 2012-04-06 06:14:59 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Economy Fail.

Doubeling prices is what we call isk velocity. Not isk alot of isk dissapearing.


Generally, more ISK=more isk velocity.

An ISK based refining tax lowers total ISK and generally should lower inflation.

I can't think of a case where it would INCREASE inflation.



According to the latest economy blogs it does not
Too many people are holding onto thier isk.


Which inevitably makes this a matter of risk vs. reward and herding cats away from their catnip.

Replace cats with bears and catniip with nearly risk-free isk faucets.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#14 - 2012-04-06 06:20:20 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Any programmer who has worked with SQL could do it.

It is very obvious change.

Yes, I'm well aware of that. My comment was mocking your apparent, and somewhat condescending, belief that CCP do not know how to perform an SQL query and are also completely incognizant of the potential economic repercussions of game mechanics changes.

Nova Fox wrote:
According to the latest economy blogs it does not
Too many people are holding onto thier isk.

This, pretty much.

Rapidly increasing mineral/ship prices is good for one thing, getting money to move hands. Coupled with incursion nerfs, and the proposed future 10% bounties decrease it should combat anything terrible happening due to an increase in bounties from the drone regions whilst also making everything more expensive for everybody.

This is not only a much needed buff to the mining profession, who always seem to get the short end of the straw, it will also hopefully get some of that ISK moving again. And ISK that's moving hands is taxed, and tax is an ISK sink. Yay.

But anyway, inflation or no inflation, I look forward to risk/reward balance being returned to the game. And I sincerely hope ships begin to have value again, even if that does put carriers and supers safely out of the reach of idiots like this Jessie guy.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Adunh Slavy
#15 - 2012-04-06 06:29:09 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:

Government Solutions



This will hurt new players more than anyone else.

Creating an ISK disincentive to mining is short sighted. Allow other professions to rise in value relative to rat shooting, don't start taxing them because you think it would be cool.

No formula can know what the price of something should be at anyone time. The best it can do is guess a range.

ISK will be taken out at the time of sale, as prices go up, more ISK will be removed anyway.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#16 - 2012-04-06 07:20:10 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:

Government Solutions



This will hurt new players more than anyone else.

Creating an ISK disincentive to mining is short sighted. Allow other professions to rise in value relative to rat shooting, don't start taxing them because you think it would be cool.

No formula can know what the price of something should be at anyone time. The best it can do is guess a range.

ISK will be taken out at the time of sale, as prices go up, more ISK will be removed anyway.


He's advocating changing the taxating in minerals when refining for a taxation in ISK.

This wil not disincentive anything. Only remove more ISK from the game is GOOD.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-04-06 07:33:34 UTC
I disagree.


Player Owned Outposts provide an ability to tax people and see a return. It would hurt those people who count on that return for things such as building ships to fuel their corps/alliances.

In my opinion, the current system works for null and wouldn't agree with the idea unless they implemented a different formula for Empire run refineries.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#18 - 2012-04-06 07:48:26 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
I disagree.


Player Owned Outposts provide an ability to tax people and see a return. It would hurt those people who count on that return for things such as building ships to fuel their corps/alliances.

In my opinion, the current system works for null and wouldn't agree with the idea unless they implemented a different formula for Empire run refineries.



So keep a mineral-tax for POS. Simple.

Most refining in the game is probably done in empire anyway, especially if reprocessing mods is taken in account.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#19 - 2012-04-06 07:51:08 UTC
What is this intended to accomplish?

If the object is to stop people with -ve wallet balance mining then I much prefer the 0.01ISK charge for jet cans idea.

The refine taxes are better in minerals for the simple reason that it's certain that the refiner has minerals to take, a newbie miner might find he doesn't have sufficient funds in his wallet to cover the refine for example - and given a mix of different veldspars, scordites and pyroxereses (and an assumption that you don't tax someone into a -ve wallet) how do you break up the refine job to allow ISK taxes to be paid?

Given that refine taxes tend to hit newer players hardest and that nullsec alliances often use refine taxes to manufacture I don't think that an ISK based system is ideal.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#20 - 2012-04-06 07:54:52 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
What is this intended to accomplish?

If the object is to stop people with -ve wallet balance mining then I much prefer the 0.01ISK charge for jet cans idea.

The refine taxes are better in minerals for the simple reason that it's certain that the refiner has minerals to take, a newbie miner might find he doesn't have sufficient funds in his wallet to cover the refine for example - and given a mix of different veldspars, scordites and pyroxereses (and an assumption that you don't tax someone into a -ve wallet) how do you break up the refine job to allow ISK taxes to be paid?

Given that refine taxes tend to hit newer players hardest and that nullsec alliances often use refine taxes to manufacture I don't think that an ISK based system is ideal.


You misunderstand. The taxes would be in addition to the minerals.

Think about it, combat pilots expend ammunition and are then taxed.

Marketeers expend ISK and then are taxed for it.

The pattern is prevalent in all professions.

Why should refineries operate tax-free? Nobody's saying the tax should be huge.

But it might actually increase the profitability of being a "refiner" in Eve.

Now you can legitimately tell your buddies that there's overhead - and you're going to have to charge them for it. Evil

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
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