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[Proposal] CSM Member Real Life Names

First post
Author
Nylith Empyreal
Blood Marauders
#201 - 2012-04-05 04:26:53 UTC
You're the only man on that sinking ship Cearain, 07

Who's the more foolish the fool or the fool who replies to him?

Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#202 - 2012-04-05 07:25:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Killer Gandry
evil kneevil wrote:
LOL!

Kudos to The Mittani for remaining a true Internet Spaceship Spy Guy. He has the balls and resoursefulness to turn even his curent sh*tty situation to the advantage of Goons in the future.

1. Get your real life adress (which is easy to find anyway) posted anonymously.
2. Get one of your henchmen to threaten raping your wife on EVE radio.
3. Get another one of your henchmen (Liang the OP) to spin this into a crybaby story that victimizes Mittens himself.
4. Turn it into a whoring campaign against CCP to anonymize CSM memberships - i.e. make CSM accessible to hordes of aspie sociopaths from Goonswarm.
5. ????!!!!
6. PROFIT!!!1



I am not nor will I ever be a Goon henchman.
Liang just hit the nail spot on.
Also I would like to see your so-called proof for those allegations else ToS 2 is directly applicable to you.

You may not use any abusive, defamatory, ethnically or racially offensive, harassing, harmful, hateful, obscene, offensive, sexually explicit, threatening or vulgar language. (Alternate spelling or partial masking of such words will be reprimanded in the same manner as the actual use of such words.)

Stop hiding behind an alt. Or are you just so darn afraid of what the bad Goonies might do to you ingame?

I post my anti Goon stuff with my main. The worst that can happen is I that I need to be carefull as whom to trust in the game. But that has been a reality already since 2004. So nothing new under the sun.
They might blob me? Heck, they wouldn't be the first and won't be the last to blob me.
They might troll me? Roflmao. Yeah right, I care.

And for your information. The Mittani would never EVER pull his wife into this kind of crap and most certainly not in a manner like you claim. That alone should get you at the very least a 30 day ban.
We will see how the report will work out for you.
Prince Kobol
#203 - 2012-04-05 08:55:17 UTC
The only thing I will add in regards to kittens is that whether CCP posted his real name or not, people would still be well aware of who is due to his own self promting.

The same can be said for Eva Jobse.

Whilst I have no issue with CCP no longer publishing the real names of future CSM candidates, CCP can not have a blanket ban on their real names being announced on the forums if the a CSM, such as kittens or Eva, decided to release that information on external sites.

If they chose to do that, they then have to expect the possible consequences of that action.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#204 - 2012-04-05 15:01:47 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Again i don't know what you are talking about with Jade. But Darius had some unknown people on the internet accuse him of breaching a contract. To the extent they had good evidence to support their claim then Darius may and perhaps should have real life consequences. To the extent they had little or no evidence to support their claim Darius does not have real life consequences. Real Life is not that bad. The CSM are a bunch of thirty something people who can take care of themselves.


Stop troll poasting long enough to read the thread at least.

-Liang



Ok I read about what Jade wrote. Yes indeed what he describes is exactly the reason why I would prefer not to give my real name. Basically some people - goonswarm - take this game way too seriously. I mean its not Jades alliance that is going to be doing the same crap he describes from goons. For the most part everyone in the game thinks what goons are doing is the mark of being a loser. But there they are being promoted by ccp.

What he describes is why I am not necessarilly against the proposal.

But here are couple of points:

1) This proposal only treats the symptoms not the cause. It says this game is has so many real life losers that unlike every other game I know of, ccp has to basically treat our democratically elected csm members as if they are in a witness protection program. So this proposal is a step in that direction.

But I would ask ccp to explore why it is that this game is so unique in the percentage of losers its attracting that your proposal is garnering such great support.

Are they marketing/promoting the game as a game for shmarmy losers like the people who are likely to do that to jade? Eve is a great game I am glad there are scams and all sorts of people playing it but do we have to celebrate everytime someone profits from the most base lie? Great ingenious scams from guiding hand yes: great stuff. Putting regular ravens on contracts and calling them navy ravens again and again and again - its not really a great thing for the game IMO. Simple lying for personal gain, not so great IMO.

I doubt most people who play the game are constantly scamming people. Yet eve gives this image. This game has so much going for it why pigeon hole the game as a game for weasels? The single shard, the complexity of the economy, the real loses that can translate to cash and makes pvp exciting. I don't know that any of these things would come to mind from non eve players before eve would be perceived as a game that celebrates weaselly back stabbing. And yes indeed we end up with a high percentage of real life losers.

I guess I would much prefer that instead of putting a bandaid on this ccp actually addressed why it is that this game has gotten to the state where it even has to consider these sorts of measures. Some things are out of their control but some things are in their control. What are they doing about the marketing and information that is in their control.

2) Jade said all this happened to him because he had to give his name to be on csm. Well is he really sure this would be the answer. (In fact Jade said this would have to go further than your proposal. You agreed in the thread but did not add that to the actual op. That is why there is some confusion about what you are proposing.) I mean lets assume he didn't have to give his name. Lets further assume he could run for csm and actually get elected without giving his real name. Now there would likely be goons on the csm. Would he always use and allias when talking with them and everyone in iceland? No one would be able to identify him by seeing him? No one in his alliance would get butthurt and tell someone else his real identity? I don't know perhaps this would work, but it seems awefully convoluted.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#205 - 2012-04-05 15:12:41 UTC
Banderlei Shiiba wrote:
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:
I say to not cave in to those particular elements within EVE. They will have 'won'.


Don't think of it as caving, think of it as asking why the hell that information is even public in the first place.



Is there any other game, sport, or hobby where democratically elected representatives have thier names kept secret?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#206 - 2012-04-05 15:14:29 UTC
Cearain wrote:

[...] unlike every other game I know of, ccp has to basically treat our democratically elected csm members as if they are in a witness protection program.


What other game do you know of that has democratically elected representatives for its playerbase who get insider access to developer resources?

Frankly, it feels a bit naive that you don't believe that out of hundreds of thousands of players there would be plenty of immature asshats, with some even willing to act out that asshattery IRL. The CSMs can take very controversial stances on issues, and they need to be able to hold those stances without fearing for their personal safety. The spirit of the game inspires no holds barred behavior, and this proposal would help keep that behavior in game (where it is appropriate) rather than letting it spill over IRL (where it is not).

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#207 - 2012-04-05 15:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Cearain wrote:

[...] unlike every other game I know of, ccp has to basically treat our democratically elected csm members as if they are in a witness protection program.


What other game do you know of that has democratically elected representatives for its playerbase who get insider access to developer resources?

Frankly, it feels a bit naive that you don't believe that out of hundreds of thousands of players there would be plenty of immature asshats, with some even willing to act out that asshattery IRL. The CSMs can take very controversial stances on issues, and they need to be able to hold those stances without fearing for their personal safety. The spirit of the game inspires no holds barred behavior, and this proposal would help keep that behavior in game (where it is appropriate) rather than letting it spill over IRL (where it is not).


What does access to developer resources (which csm really doesn't have) have to do with anything? Just about every major game, sport and hobby has amature associations with many with elections for offices. They all have controversial issues. This idea would be absurd for them.

The spirit of all games and sports is to try to win within the game. Why does EVE seem to attract so many losers that are eager to go outside the game?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Prince Kobol
#208 - 2012-04-05 15:43:06 UTC
Cearain wrote:


But here are couple of points:

1) This proposal only treats the symptoms not the cause. It says this game is has so many real life losers that unlike every other game I know of, ccp has to basically treat our democratically elected csm members as if they are in a witness protection program. So this proposal is a step in that direction.

But I would ask ccp to explore why it is that this game is so unique in the percentage of losers its attracting that your proposal is garnering such great support.

Are they marketing/promoting the game as a game for shmarmy losers like the people who are likely to do that to jade? Eve is a great game I am glad there are scams and all sorts of people playing it but do we have to celebrate everytime someone profits from the most base lie? Great ingenious scams from guiding hand yes: great stuff. Putting regular ravens on contracts and calling them navy ravens again and again and again - its not really a great thing for the game IMO. Simple lying for personal gain, not so great IMO.

I doubt most people who play the game are constantly scamming people. Yet eve gives this image. This game has so much going for it why pigeon hole the game as a game for weasels? The single shard, the complexity of the economy, the real loses that can translate to cash and makes pvp exciting. I don't know that any of these things would come to mind from non eve players before eve would be perceived as a game that celebrates weaselly back stabbing. And yes indeed we end up with a high percentage of real life losers.

I guess I would much prefer that instead of putting a bandaid on this ccp actually addressed why it is that this game has gotten to the state where it even has to consider these sorts of measures. Some things are out of their control but some things are in their control. What are they doing about the marketing and information that is in their control.


My personal opinion on why Eve attracts people who like to scam, love the whole meta-gaming aspect, back stabbing, stealing, and many other things which you might call negative aspects is most likely because there is no other MMO where you can these things.

You sell a product on its uniqueness and Eve's is the fact that you can do things as well as many other things.

I also would also like to add that people who you would describe as idiots, asshats etc, are not unique to Eve, for from it, but the major difference is in other MMO's they can only have a very limited effect on your game play, in Eve they can have a major effect on your game play.

Cearain wrote:

2) Jade said all this happened to him because he had to give his name to be on csm. Well is he really sure this would be the answer. (In fact Jade said this would have to go further than your proposal. You agreed in the thread but did not add that to the actual op. That is why there is some confusion about what you are proposing.) I mean lets assume he didn't have to give his name. Lets further assume he could run for csm and actually get elected without giving his real name. Now there would likely be goons on the csm. Would he always use and allias when talking with them and everyone in iceland? No one would be able to identify him by seeing him? No one in his alliance would get butthurt and tell someone else his real identity? I don't know perhaps this would work, but it seems awefully convoluted.


I understand where you are coming from. The problem is whether CCP and CSM decided to no longer give out their real names, I can see it making very little difference.

At some point, with Eve being the game it is, the information would get out very quickly one way or another.

For me that is the real issue.

Lets say Hypothetically CCP did not release the names of the CSM members. Both Ankhesentapemkah and Kittens real name would have still been used simply because they both put the information out their numerous times of their own free will.

So because they have done that, can CCP realistic ban his name from being mentioned on the Eve Forums without looking ridiculous?


Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#209 - 2012-04-05 15:43:14 UTC
Cearain wrote:
What does access to developer resources (which csm really doesn't have) have to do with anything? Just about every major game, sport and hobby has amature associations with many with elections for offices. They all have controversial issues. This idea would be absurd for them.

The spirit of all games and sports is to try to win within the game. Why does EVE seem to attract so many losers that are eager to go outside the game?

I'm not comparing it to RL sports and hobbies as there everyone uses their real identity. Compare this to other online communities, like Reddit. I wouldn't trust my RL details with any of those guys, because people turn into something else when given the anonymity they get behind a pseudonym -- be it an Eve avatar, or a Reddit username. The game being playable behind this mask from the privacy of your own home means that it is far more accessible to people with few ideas of social acceptability of certain behaviors. All of this is also compounded with the atmosphere of Eve, which is competitive to the point of cutthroat adversarialism, to make it a much more toxic environment to give away RL details in than, say, your local fencing club.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#210 - 2012-04-05 16:06:39 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Cearain wrote:
What does access to developer resources (which csm really doesn't have) have to do with anything? Just about every major game, sport and hobby has amature associations with many with elections for offices. They all have controversial issues. This idea would be absurd for them.

The spirit of all games and sports is to try to win within the game. Why does EVE seem to attract so many losers that are eager to go outside the game?

I'm not comparing it to RL sports and hobbies as there everyone uses their real identity. Compare this to other online communities, like Reddit. I wouldn't trust my RL details with any of those guys, because people turn into something else when given the anonymity they get behind a pseudonym -- be it an Eve avatar, or a Reddit username. The game being playable behind this mask from the privacy of your own home means that it is far more accessible to people with few ideas of social acceptability of certain behaviors. All of this is also compounded with the atmosphere of Eve, which is competitive to the point of cutthroat adversarialism, to make it a much more toxic environment to give away RL details in than, say, your local fencing club.



Ok I agree with your position to some extent. Internet communities tend to be less controlled due to anonymity. But this proposal seems to take us even more in that direction right? I mean instead of saying we as a community of players and game owners will not stand for the crap Jade allegedly had to put up with from goons we seem to be saying yeah that will happen let’s try to hide from it.

Many groups now are organized over the internet. I played chess for a few years - mostly over the internet. People are very competitive and often socially awkward in that game. Yet I didn't think that by giving my name out I would end up with people sending faxes to my workplace along the lines of what Jade describes from Goons.

Yes for some sports games and hobbies you show up in person and are seen in person (some you’re not) but the csm shows up in person too. So it would be especially odd to still try to maintain that anonymity.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#211 - 2012-04-05 16:23:25 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Ok I agree with your position to some extent. Internet communities tend to be less controlled due to anonymity. But this proposal seems to take us even more in that direction right? I mean instead of saying we as a community of players and game owners will not stand for the crap Jade allegedly had to put up with from goons we seem to be saying yeah that will happen let’s try to hide from it.

We're saying both of those things. It's like saying that you won't put up with crime in your city, and at least want to make efforts to stop it, but in the meantime you also refuse to abstain from walking down dark sketchy alleyways. The former is proper action; the latter is just prudence, as the problem will likely not be solved 100% -- at least, not in the short term.

The names of CSMs may get out anyway (leaks, friend telling a friend telling a friend, etc), and that's when it's important for us to not stand for the crap some people do when they take rivalries outside of the game. However, preventive measures to not get to that point are prudent (at least, until some sort of change happens in the community).
Cearain wrote:

Yes for some sports games and hobbies you show up in person and are seen in person (some you’re not) but the csm shows up in person too. So it would be especially odd to still try to maintain that anonymity.

I'm sure they won't maintain the in-game personas and names in person. But that's 12 (supposedly) trustworthy people knowing your name, rather than thousands of nerd-raging baddies who take an internet spreadsheet game too seriously.

When meeting in person and collaborating, a real name is useful to better know the person you're dealing with. In the CSM election though, the RL name of candidates is largely irrelevant. I don't care if The Mittani's name was Alex or Bob or Jean-Pierre, and frankly it's not my business to care about that. I don't see how it's the business of any other Eve player, either.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#212 - 2012-04-05 16:32:36 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Again i don't know what you are talking about with Jade. But Darius had some unknown people on the internet accuse him of breaching a contract. To the extent they had good evidence to support their claim then Darius may and perhaps should have real life consequences. To the extent they had little or no evidence to support their claim Darius does not have real life consequences. Real Life is not that bad. The CSM are a bunch of thirty something people who can take care of themselves.


Stop troll poasting long enough to read the thread at least.

-Liang



Ok I read about what Jade wrote. Yes indeed what he describes is exactly the reason why I would prefer not to give my real name. Basically some people - goonswarm - take this game way too seriously. I mean its not Jades alliance that is going to be doing the same crap he describes from goons. For the most part everyone in the game thinks what goons are doing is the mark of being a loser. But there they are being promoted by ccp.

What he describes is why I am not necessarilly against the proposal.

But here are couple of points:

1) This proposal only treats the symptoms not the cause. It says this game is has so many real life losers that unlike every other game I know of, ccp has to basically treat our democratically elected csm members as if they are in a witness protection program. So this proposal is a step in that direction.

But I would ask ccp to explore why it is that this game is so unique in the percentage of losers its attracting that your proposal is garnering such great support.

Are they marketing/promoting the game as a game for shmarmy losers like the people who are likely to do that to jade? Eve is a great game I am glad there are scams and all sorts of people playing it but do we have to celebrate everytime someone profits from the most base lie? Great ingenious scams from guiding hand yes: great stuff. Putting regular ravens on contracts and calling them navy ravens again and again and again - its not really a great thing for the game IMO. Simple lying for personal gain, not so great IMO.

I doubt most people who play the game are constantly scamming people. Yet eve gives this image. This game has so much going for it why pigeon hole the game as a game for weasels? The single shard, the complexity of the economy, the real loses that can translate to cash and makes pvp exciting. I don't know that any of these things would come to mind from non eve players before eve would be perceived as a game that celebrates weaselly back stabbing. And yes indeed we end up with a high percentage of real life losers.

I guess I would much prefer that instead of putting a bandaid on this ccp actually addressed why it is that this game has gotten to the state where it even has to consider these sorts of measures. Some things are out of their control but some things are in their control. What are they doing about the marketing and information that is in their control.

2) Jade said all this happened to him because he had to give his name to be on csm. Well is he really sure this would be the answer. (In fact Jade said this would have to go further than your proposal. You agreed in the thread but did not add that to the actual op. That is why there is some confusion about what you are proposing.) I mean lets assume he didn't have to give his name. Lets further assume he could run for csm and actually get elected without giving his real name. Now there would likely be goons on the csm. Would he always use and allias when talking with them and everyone in iceland? No one would be able to identify him by seeing him? No one in his alliance would get butthurt and tell someone else his real identity? I don't know perhaps this would work, but it seems awefully convoluted.


Just want to say this is a pretty damned good post. And yes, it is very important we don't lose sight of the cause of the problem (which is lunatics using people's RL details to try to bully their way to an ingame "victory" they are not capable of gaining with gamplay alone.)

Neither I nor any other eve player should have to put up with having my rl dragged through the mud because I am in-game enemies with the serious internet spaceship "goonswarm" SA crowd.

To a large degree CCP have a responsibility in this. They could (and should) have reacted more decisively when example of rl harrassment have occured and they could certainly have worked harder to differentiate genuine Eve shennanigans (in game) from the kind of taudry Something Awful forums style OOC harrassment that the game has lately become known for.

I do recognize that supporting this proposal is a kind of admission of defeat (ie accepting that CCP is unwilling to control the Goonswarm abuses against real players so the players themselves need to be anonymous)

But *shrugs* to be quite honest life is too short to be explaining to one's bosses that the obscene photoshopped pictures arriving by company email are because some basement-dwelling nerds in America are taking internet spaceship wars too seriously.



The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#213 - 2012-04-05 17:17:46 UTC
It's a matter of revealing True Names to people who are hiding behind pseudonyms.

This is an asymmetric situation and leads to abuse.

I'd like someone to come up with an example of such an asymmetric situation that *hasn't* been abused.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Prince Kobol
#214 - 2012-04-05 18:05:44 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:


To a large degree CCP have a responsibility in this. They could (and should) have reacted more decisively when example of rl harrassment have occured and they could certainly have worked harder to differentiate genuine Eve shennanigans (in game) from the kind of taudry Something Awful forums style OOC harrassment that the game has lately become known for.



Before I start I do not condone anything that has been aim at yourself Jade, nor some of the things that were aim at Alex.

CCP are in a very difficult position when things are said and done which are outside of their domain.

In game then yes, CCP have a responsibility, however outside of the their domain what realistic can they do?

All I can say is that those who do such reprehensible acts are nothing but cowards in real life and are not worth a second of your time.

Going slightly off topic, I would love to see somebody from Goonswarn explain how they find what has happened to you funny and how they can be a part of an organisation which allows this kind of behaviour.

I either expect to see no answer or something of the lines of "You always get a few bad apples and we can't control what people say" which to me just a cop out.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#215 - 2012-04-05 18:27:05 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

Before I start I do not condone anything that has been aim at yourself Jade, nor some of the things that were aim at Alex. CCP are in a very difficult position when things are said and done which are outside of their domain. In game then yes, CCP have a responsibility, however outside of the their domain what realistic can they do?


Zero tolerance for people linking RL pictures and contact details in game or on these forums.
Zero tolerance for ooc bullying and metagaming against the PLAYER, rather than the character.

If we have another Smoske or Lady Scarlet situation in Eve online then heads need to roll immediately and brutally so the lesson gets learned by the SA crew that if they don't learn a minimum standard of respect for their fellow players they don't get to play at all.

And of course some more backbone in general when talking on the big 0.0 blocks. I think most people would agree that Mittani should have been permabanned from the CSM for what he did. Actually making that judgment would have done much to symbolize CCP's discouragement of ooc attacks and anti player metagaming/bullying. The current rather silly compromise means we're going to be having these same discussions a year from now when Mittani tries to run for CSM again.

Prince Kobol wrote:
All I can say is that those who do such reprehensible acts are nothing but cowards in real life and are not worth a second of your time. Going slightly off topic, I would love to see somebody from Goonswarn explain how they find what has happened to you funny and how they can be a part of an organisation which allows this kind of behaviour.


Well through the grapevine I generally hear "its nothing to do with me / I don't control the wiki/email/hosting/server/whatever/" It is the old defense of "it was somebody else in the swarm wot did it - I just laughed at it."

Prince Kobol wrote:
I either expect to see no answer or something of the lines of "You always get a few bad apples and we can't control what people say" which to me just a cop out.


Yeah its a cop out. But I guess these guys don't join up with an online bullying community to demonstrate strength of character.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#216 - 2012-04-05 19:16:41 UTC
This has been the primary reason I've never considered running for CSM. Having any of my real life information associated with my in game information would fundamentally change the way I would be able to play the game comfortably. I have pissed off other players in game enough that they threw a fit and claimed they would hunt me down irl... I am sure most have been on the receiving end of messages like that before. The anonymity of "being" a character in Eve allows me to shrug and laugh it off.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#217 - 2012-04-06 02:42:36 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
This has been the primary reason I've never considered running for CSM. Having any of my real life information associated with my in game information would fundamentally change the way I would be able to play the game comfortably. I have pissed off other players in game enough that they threw a fit and claimed they would hunt me down irl... I am sure most have been on the receiving end of messages like that before. The anonymity of "being" a character in Eve allows me to shrug and laugh it off.


I'd actually rather like certain goons to try and "hunt me down" in real life. Would be an interesting face to face discussion.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Hroya
#218 - 2012-04-06 04:27:51 UTC
Yeah sure, good proposal. I'll support it.

Not like i care who you are anyways. It's what you accomplish to enhance the game for me anyways.
And as to the encounters at ccp. I may be socially misfunctionate or less eliquent but imo it would work perfectly fine to just talk on a firstname basis. It's not all poshy formal crap anyways. It's about a couple of people, csm and ccp alike, to talk about a game and how to better it.

You go your corridor but.

Aineko Macx
#219 - 2012-04-06 07:41:31 UTC
This discussion is purely academic, IMO, because even if CCP decided to stop providing the CSMs personal details, this information will get known sooner or later one way or another.
Therefore we should be talking about how things should be dealt with once this information is abused.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#220 - 2012-04-06 12:33:48 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Ok I agree with your position to some extent. Internet communities tend to be less controlled due to anonymity. But this proposal seems to take us even more in that direction right? I mean instead of saying we as a community of players and game owners will not stand for the crap Jade allegedly had to put up with from goons we seem to be saying yeah that will happen let’s try to hide from it.

We're saying both of those things. It's like saying that you won't put up with crime in your city, and at least want to make efforts to stop it, but in the meantime you also refuse to abstain from walking down dark sketchy alleyways. The former is proper action; the latter is just prudence, as the problem will likely not be solved 100% -- at least, not in the short term.



Ok I can agree with this but what efforts are they making to stop it. They and we as a community seem to be encouraging the groups that commit the "crimes" The community is constantly raving about how wonderful goonswarm and mittani are. So is CCP! I mean come one how stupid are we. We are encouraging those who do this **** and then we complain that it happens and want new rules to protect us. To stick with the crime analogy its like the governement (CCP) is puting out pr pieces for the worst criminals and and people watching it are sending fan mail to the criminals, but then they complain that crime is increasing.

And by the way this topic is not about in game scams or in game treachery. The only real concern I have is the stuff that goons does. I mean sure some murder or something over a game is always possible but I don't really think there is substantially more chance of that in eve than any other sport/game or hobby. But the stuff Jade complained - we all know this happens. Mittani even spoke about how goons did it to some other lawyer who was a player and if I recall he was saying he didn't want to give his real name before he retired because of this. What do we and ccp do? Well CCP and the players celebrate the same people who do this crap.

As to what ccp can do (beyond not publicly promoting groups that they are pretty sure do this) I agree that may be difficult. I mean now you can simply read posts by jade and he will be followed on these forums by goons trying to defame him in real life. So yeah now we can clearly see it is the goons. But if ccp did start to crack down it woudl simply move underground. There would just be alt accounts made doing the same thing. So again I'm not sure an explicit rule needs to be made wich can't be enforced. It may be better to let groups like goons be open about their out of game asshattery so we as a community can clearly identify who it is. But ffs don't keep celebrating the groups that do this.

Yes people join goons and come into the game from goons. But also other people tired of eve because of the crap they pull. Whether this proposal is passed or not I don't really care. But what I would like is the fact that this proposal even gets so much support to be a wake up call for ccp and the community that we shouldn't be promoting groups like goons and others that pull this out of game crap.

As far as ingame scams and treachery I dont think the game mechanics should change at all. However constantly marketing the game as a game for weasels is a bit disappointing. Perhaps just perhaps all the claims that I am an ******* in game but not out of game aren't really factual. Perhaps some people like playing an ******* in game because well they *are* assholes. There are other very nice features of the game besides being able to back stab friends.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815