Assembly Hall

I am not nor will I ever be a Goon henchman.
Liang just hit the nail spot on.
Also I would like to see your so-called proof for those allegations else ToS 2 is directly applicable to you.

You may not use any abusive, defamatory, ethnically or racially offensive, harassing, harmful, hateful, obscene, offensive, sexually explicit, threatening or vulgar language. (Alternate spelling or partial masking of such words will be reprimanded in the same manner as the actual use of such words.)

Stop hiding behind an alt. Or are you just so darn afraid of what the bad Goonies might do to you ingame?

I post my anti Goon stuff with my main. The worst that can happen is I that I need to be carefull as whom to trust in the game. But that has been a reality already since 2004. So nothing new under the sun.
They might blob me? Heck, they wouldn't be the first and won't be the last to blob me.
They might troll me? Roflmao. Yeah right, I care.

And for your information. The Mittani would never EVER pull his wife into this kind of crap and most certainly not in a manner like you claim. That alone should get you at the very least a 30 day ban.
We will see how the report will work out for you.

Ok I read about what Jade wrote. Yes indeed what he describes is exactly the reason why I would prefer not to give my real name. Basically some people - goonswarm - take this game way too seriously. I mean its not Jades alliance that is going to be doing the same crap he describes from goons. For the most part everyone in the game thinks what goons are doing is the mark of being a loser. But there they are being promoted by ccp.

What he describes is why I am not necessarilly against the proposal.

But here are couple of points:

1) This proposal only treats the symptoms not the cause. It says this game is has so many real life losers that unlike every other game I know of, ccp has to basically treat our democratically elected csm members as if they are in a witness protection program. So this proposal is a step in that direction.

But I would ask ccp to explore why it is that this game is so unique in the percentage of losers its attracting that your proposal is garnering such great support.

Are they marketing/promoting the game as a game for shmarmy losers like the people who are likely to do that to jade? Eve is a great game I am glad there are scams and all sorts of people playing it but do we have to celebrate everytime someone profits from the most base lie? Great ingenious scams from guiding hand yes: great stuff. Putting regular ravens on contracts and calling them navy ravens again and again and again - its not really a great thing for the game IMO. Simple lying for personal gain, not so great IMO.

I doubt most people who play the game are constantly scamming people. Yet eve gives this image. This game has so much going for it why pigeon hole the game as a game for weasels? The single shard, the complexity of the economy, the real loses that can translate to cash and makes pvp exciting. I don't know that any of these things would come to mind from non eve players before eve would be perceived as a game that celebrates weaselly back stabbing. And yes indeed we end up with a high percentage of real life losers.

I guess I would much prefer that instead of putting a bandaid on this ccp actually addressed why it is that this game has gotten to the state where it even has to consider these sorts of measures. Some things are out of their control but some things are in their control. What are they doing about the marketing and information that is in their control.

2) Jade said all this happened to him because he had to give his name to be on csm. Well is he really sure this would be the answer. (In fact Jade said this would have to go further than your proposal. You agreed in the thread but did not add that to the actual op. That is why there is some confusion about what you are proposing.) I mean lets assume he didn't have to give his name. Lets further assume he could run for csm and actually get elected without giving his real name. Now there would likely be goons on the csm. Would he always use and allias when talking with them and everyone in iceland? No one would be able to identify him by seeing him? No one in his alliance would get butthurt and tell someone else his real identity? I don't know perhaps this would work, but it seems awefully convoluted.

What other game do you know of that has democratically elected representatives for its playerbase who get insider access to developer resources?

Frankly, it feels a bit naive that you don't believe that out of hundreds of thousands of players there would be plenty of immature asshats, with some even willing to act out that asshattery IRL. The CSMs can take very controversial stances on issues, and they need to be able to hold those stances without fearing for their personal safety. The spirit of the game inspires no holds barred behavior, and this proposal would help keep that behavior in game (where it is appropriate) rather than letting it spill over IRL (where it is not).

My personal opinion on why Eve attracts people who like to scam, love the whole meta-gaming aspect, back stabbing, stealing, and many other things which you might call negative aspects is most likely because there is no other MMO where you can these things.

You sell a product on its uniqueness and Eve's is the fact that you can do things as well as many other things.

I also would also like to add that people who you would describe as idiots, asshats etc, are not unique to Eve, for from it, but the major difference is in other MMO's they can only have a very limited effect on your game play, in Eve they can have a major effect on your game play.



I understand where you are coming from. The problem is whether CCP and CSM decided to no longer give out their real names, I can see it making very little difference.

At some point, with Eve being the game it is, the information would get out very quickly one way or another.

For me that is the real issue.

Lets say Hypothetically CCP did not release the names of the CSM members. Both Ankhesentapemkah and Kittens real name would have still been used simply because they both put the information out their numerous times of their own free will.

So because they have done that, can CCP realistic ban his name from being mentioned on the Eve Forums without looking ridiculous?

Ok I agree with your position to some extent. Internet communities tend to be less controlled due to anonymity. But this proposal seems to take us even more in that direction right? I mean instead of saying we as a community of players and game owners will not stand for the crap Jade allegedly had to put up with from goons we seem to be saying yeah that will happen let’s try to hide from it.

Many groups now are organized over the internet. I played chess for a few years - mostly over the internet. People are very competitive and often socially awkward in that game. Yet I didn't think that by giving my name out I would end up with people sending faxes to my workplace along the lines of what Jade describes from Goons.

Yes for some sports games and hobbies you show up in person and are seen in person (some you’re not) but the csm shows up in person too. So it would be especially odd to still try to maintain that anonymity.

Just want to say this is a pretty damned good post. And yes, it is very important we don't lose sight of the cause of the problem (which is lunatics using people's RL details to try to bully their way to an ingame "victory" they are not capable of gaining with gamplay alone.)

Neither I nor any other eve player should have to put up with having my rl dragged through the mud because I am in-game enemies with the serious internet spaceship "goonswarm" SA crowd.

To a large degree CCP have a responsibility in this. They could (and should) have reacted more decisively when example of rl harrassment have occured and they could certainly have worked harder to differentiate genuine Eve shennanigans (in game) from the kind of taudry Something Awful forums style OOC harrassment that the game has lately become known for.

I do recognize that supporting this proposal is a kind of admission of defeat (ie accepting that CCP is unwilling to control the Goonswarm abuses against real players so the players themselves need to be anonymous)

But *shrugs* to be quite honest life is too short to be explaining to one's bosses that the obscene photoshopped pictures arriving by company email are because some basement-dwelling nerds in America are taking internet spaceship wars too seriously.

Before I start I do not condone anything that has been aim at yourself Jade, nor some of the things that were aim at Alex.

CCP are in a very difficult position when things are said and done which are outside of their domain.

In game then yes, CCP have a responsibility, however outside of the their domain what realistic can they do?

All I can say is that those who do such reprehensible acts are nothing but cowards in real life and are not worth a second of your time.

Going slightly off topic, I would love to see somebody from Goonswarn explain how they find what has happened to you funny and how they can be a part of an organisation which allows this kind of behaviour.

I either expect to see no answer or something of the lines of "You always get a few bad apples and we can't control what people say" which to me just a cop out.

This has been the primary reason I've never considered running for CSM. Having any of my real life information associated with my in game information would fundamentally change the way I would be able to play the game comfortably. I have pissed off other players in game enough that they threw a fit and claimed they would hunt me down irl... I am sure most have been on the receiving end of messages like that before. The anonymity of "being" a character in Eve allows me to shrug and laugh it off.

Yeah sure, good proposal. I'll support it.

Not like i care who you are anyways. It's what you accomplish to enhance the game for me anyways.
And as to the encounters at ccp. I may be socially misfunctionate or less eliquent but imo it would work perfectly fine to just talk on a firstname basis. It's not all poshy formal crap anyways. It's about a couple of people, csm and ccp alike, to talk about a game and how to better it.

Ok I can agree with this but what efforts are they making to stop it. They and we as a community seem to be encouraging the groups that commit the "crimes" The community is constantly raving about how wonderful goonswarm and mittani are. So is CCP! I mean come one how stupid are we. We are encouraging those who do this **** and then we complain that it happens and want new rules to protect us. To stick with the crime analogy its like the governement (CCP) is puting out pr pieces for the worst criminals and and people watching it are sending fan mail to the criminals, but then they complain that crime is increasing.

And by the way this topic is not about in game scams or in game treachery. The only real concern I have is the stuff that goons does. I mean sure some murder or something over a game is always possible but I don't really think there is substantially more chance of that in eve than any other sport/game or hobby. But the stuff Jade complained - we all know this happens. Mittani even spoke about how goons did it to some other lawyer who was a player and if I recall he was saying he didn't want to give his real name before he retired because of this. What do we and ccp do? Well CCP and the players celebrate the same people who do this crap.

As to what ccp can do (beyond not publicly promoting groups that they are pretty sure do this) I agree that may be difficult. I mean now you can simply read posts by jade and he will be followed on these forums by goons trying to defame him in real life. So yeah now we can clearly see it is the goons. But if ccp did start to crack down it woudl simply move underground. There would just be alt accounts made doing the same thing. So again I'm not sure an explicit rule needs to be made wich can't be enforced. It may be better to let groups like goons be open about their out of game asshattery so we as a community can clearly identify who it is. But ffs don't keep celebrating the groups that do this.

Yes people join goons and come into the game from goons. But also other people tired of eve because of the crap they pull. Whether this proposal is passed or not I don't really care. But what I would like is the fact that this proposal even gets so much support to be a wake up call for ccp and the community that we shouldn't be promoting groups like goons and others that pull this out of game crap.

As far as ingame scams and treachery I dont think the game mechanics should change at all. However constantly marketing the game as a game for weasels is a bit disappointing. Perhaps just perhaps all the claims that I am an ******* in game but not out of game aren't really factual. Perhaps some people like playing an ******* in game because well they *are* assholes. There are other very nice features of the game besides being able to back stab friends.