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Wow CCP, you are really rolling the dice on the economy

Author
Vince Snetterton
#1 - 2012-04-05 04:41:04 UTC
You want to make changes for some kind of perception that the economy is broken.

OK, I get that. But nobody in their right mind would change so many things in such a complicated system in such short order as you are. I already posted a thread with the changes that are happening in the next 7 weeks, and now I read about the elimination of meta 0 items from loot drops. Yes, I recognize this merely moves the wealth from the mission runners to the miners and industrialists.

But are you planning on changing SO many things simultaneously, you will be introducing chaos into the economy.
Sure, eventually it will all settle and new equilibriums reached.

But at what cost? How many subscribers are going to throw their arms in the air with frustration and pack it in?
You might get them all back, maybe. I would suggest why risk it?

Slow down the process. Change things slowly, iteratively. Not all at once.
If a real life economist suggested making all these changes in such a short span in a 400,000 person economy, they would be fired on the spot. No one knows, especially you CCP, about where this is all going to lead. And many of us don't like change and uncertainty. No real life economy does, and Eve's economy is complex enough to emulate one.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#2 - 2012-04-05 04:46:10 UTC
Personally I like the fact that they're shaking things up a little.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#3 - 2012-04-05 04:49:26 UTC
Confirming that the next several months are going to be awesome.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

urbino
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-04-05 04:49:34 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Personally I like the fact that they're shaking things up a little.


this
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-04-05 04:51:09 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Personally I like the fact that they're shaking things up a little.


Not to mention, that these changes are good for industry professions and have been requested for a long time.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#6 - 2012-04-05 04:52:12 UTC
Miners would be golden gooses for a while?

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Muestereate
Minions LLC
#7 - 2012-04-05 04:52:29 UTC
Time waits for no man
Amity Lane
Lane Family Shell Corp
#8 - 2012-04-05 04:52:45 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
But nobody in their right mind would change so many things in such a complicated system in such short order as you are.

Vince Snetterton wrote:
If a real life economist suggested making all these changes in such a short span in a 400,000 person economy, they would be fired on the spot.

Tell that to Franklin Roosevelt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal

Seemed to work out OK. vOv
Richard Aiel
The Merchants of War
#9 - 2012-04-05 04:55:26 UTC
man... they dont change anything for what, 3 years? MASSIVE QQ

they start changing thigns, MORE qq

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/buddahcjcc/SOA-3-2.jpg

Alara IonStorm
#10 - 2012-04-05 04:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Vince Snetterton wrote:

Slow down the process. Change things slowly, iteratively. Not all at once.

In the last year Tier 2 Battlecruisers have gone from 26 million to 47 million, Battleships are up to at Tier 1, 45mil > 85mil, Tier 2, 75mil > 135mil and Tier 3, 110 > 210mil.

Across the board prices are still rising and while that is fine for power players that leaves casuals and people without 3 accounts playing a much more difficult game of second job online then was previously coined for EVE.

I think it is about time they fixed the economy now before people who don't have 6 hours a day to grind up and leave because all the awesome new Ships CCP is releasing have to be flown with kids gloves because there goes halve your bank if you risk it.
Black Dranzer
#11 - 2012-04-05 05:00:27 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
and now I read about the elimination of meta 0 items from loot drops.


Woah, woah. They're actually doing this?

I heard about it a while back, but it never actually got implemented. Is it actually coming with inferno?

If so, that's AWESOME.
Vince Snetterton
#12 - 2012-04-05 05:06:37 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:

Slow down the process. Change things slowly, iteratively. Not all at once.

In the last year Tier 2 Battlecruisers have gone from 26 million to 47 million, Battleships are up to at Tier 1, 45mil > 85mil, Tier 2, 75mil > 135mil and Tier 3, 110 > 210mil.

Across the board prices are still rising and while that is fine for power players that leaves casuals and people without 3 accounts playing a much more difficult game of second job online then was previously coined for EVE.

I think it is about time they fixed the economy now before people who don't have 6 hours a day to grind up and leave because all the awesome new Ships CCP is releasing have to be flown with kids gloves because there goes halve your bank if you risk it.


And who says mineral prices are going to go down, which is what your T1 ship costs are based on?
Most of these changes are geared to reducing easy mineral supply, and putting far more of the Eve's mineral supply dependent on human miners. Seems reasonable and fair enough, but what if not enough humans are willing to deal with the drudgery of mining plus deal with the ever increasing risk of gank attacks, let alone what the new ward dec system will do to mining corps.

And please don't say that mining corps can just hire merc corps to fight their battles. Of course they can, but the cost of those merc corps is an added expense in the production of the minerals and will be passed down to the customer.

So don't expect your shiny ships to drop in price by say July. And if they are just remember your comment tonight.
Adunh Slavy
#13 - 2012-04-05 05:09:36 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

I think it is about time they fixed the economy now before people who don't have 6 hours a day to grind up and leave because all the awesome new Ships CCP is releasing have to be flown with kids gloves because there goes halve your bank if you risk it.



That depends on your perspective. Once upon a time in Eve you went out and tried to mine all your minerals your self for you first, cruiser, then your first battle ship. Many of the first cap ships were mined by the owners. Despite the greater risk then, compared to now, the population distribution across security sectors is very close to what it has always been.

Perhaps increasing mineral prices by reducing the supply is an attempt to fix, and perhaps your perception needs adjustment as well.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Marduk Nibiru
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-04-05 05:09:57 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Personally I like the fact that they're shaking things up a little.


It's fun to throw M-80's at bees' nests.

Anyone that says otherwise...simple never has.
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-04-05 05:11:24 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
You want to make changes for some kind of perception that the economy is broken.

OK, I get that. But nobody in their right mind would change so many things in such a complicated system in such short order as you are. I already posted a thread with the changes that are happening in the next 7 weeks, and now I read about the elimination of meta 0 items from loot drops. Yes, I recognize this merely moves the wealth from the mission runners to the miners and industrialists.

But are you planning on changing SO many things simultaneously, you will be introducing chaos into the economy.
Sure, eventually it will all settle and new equilibriums reached.

But at what cost? How many subscribers are going to throw their arms in the air with frustration and pack it in?
You might get them all back, maybe. I would suggest why risk it?

Slow down the process. Change things slowly, iteratively. Not all at once.
If a real life economist suggested making all these changes in such a short span in a 400,000 person economy, they would be fired on the spot. No one knows, especially you CCP, about where this is all going to lead. And many of us don't like change and uncertainty. No real life economy does, and Eve's economy is complex enough to emulate one.


If they are getting rid of meta 0 items from loot drops, that would be amazing. Stop letting mission runners bypass two professions at once (miners, manufacterers).

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB

Marduk Nibiru
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-04-05 05:12:12 UTC
Amity Lane wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:
But nobody in their right mind would change so many things in such a complicated system in such short order as you are.

Vince Snetterton wrote:
If a real life economist suggested making all these changes in such a short span in a 400,000 person economy, they would be fired on the spot.

Tell that to Franklin Roosevelt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal


...and people are still sending that guy hate mail....even though he's dead.
Alara IonStorm
#17 - 2012-04-05 05:22:15 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:

And who says mineral prices are going to go down, which is what your T1 ship costs are based on?
Most of these changes are geared to reducing easy mineral supply, and putting far more of the Eve's mineral supply dependent on human miners. Seems reasonable and fair enough, but what if not enough humans are willing to deal with the drudgery of mining plus deal with the ever increasing risk of gank attacks, let alone what the new ward dec system will do to mining corps.

And please don't say that mining corps can just hire merc corps to fight their battles. Of course they can, but the cost of those merc corps is an added expense in the production of the minerals and will be passed down to the customer.

So don't expect your shiny ships to drop in price by say July. And if they are just remember your comment tonight.

While a valid perspective you also have to consider the Bounty and Incursions nerf. That and the fact that Mining will become much more profitable which will help pay for ganking loses.

The number one complaint about Mining isn't a gank but that you can make so much more doing other stuff.
Adunh Slavy wrote:

That depends on your perspective. Once upon a time in Eve you went out and tried to mine all your minerals your self for you first, cruiser, then your first battle ship. Many of the first cap ships were mined by the owners. Despite the greater risk then, compared to now, the population distribution across security sectors is very close to what it has always been.

Perhaps increasing mineral prices by reducing the supply is an attempt to fix, and perhaps your perception needs adjustment as well.

Different world. Now Tier 2 Battlecruisers are the norm and add on's like Rigs and a lack of T1 Balance around T2 Fitting stats have made ships like T1 Cruisers less then viable for engagements. With all the new ships the bar is being set higher and higher with what you have to use to compete.

Back then a T1 Battleship was like a Capital today and Frigates / Cruisers were the norm. Now the field has expanded. The rebalance may help lower the cost of entry level PvP making ISK Costs go down for T1 Ships which might alleviate the problem.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#18 - 2012-04-05 05:24:38 UTC
Marduk Nibiru wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Personally I like the fact that they're shaking things up a little.


It's fun to throw M-80's at bees' nests.

Anyone that says otherwise...simple never has.

Real men cover themselves in honey first.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Richard Aiel
The Merchants of War
#19 - 2012-04-05 05:29:15 UTC
Marduk Nibiru wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Personally I like the fact that they're shaking things up a little.


It's fun to throw M-80's at bees' nests.

Anyone that says otherwise...simple never has.


Black Powder scattergun. Thats how my uncle does it

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/buddahcjcc/SOA-3-2.jpg

Adunh Slavy
#20 - 2012-04-05 05:49:55 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Different world. Now Tier 2 Battlecruisers are the norm and add on's like Rigs and a lack of T1 Balance around T2 Fitting stats have made ships like T1 Cruisers less then viable for engagements. With all the new ships the bar is being set higher and higher with what you have to use to compete.

Back then a T1 Battleship was like a Capital today and Frigates / Cruisers were the norm. Now the field has expanded. The rebalance may help lower the cost of entry level PvP making ISK Costs go down for T1 Ships which might alleviate the problem.



True enough, but I'll tell ya something. Fun in Eve is not defined by the nifty ship, it is defined by what you do with it. It is more fun to get your corp mates and try to do a lvl 4 in T1 cruisers than all of you in pimped out faction sparkle boats.

One of the most fun experience I had in Eve was in Null sec. I fit up a crappy blackbird with whatever crap I could find on the market, all T1 stuff. I joined the fleet and some guy laughed, "hu hu hu, you won't jam anything with that!". Well a few minutes later, off we ran to help some blues save a carrier that was under attack by some reds. In we zip to the carrier and I locked the reds, each one of them, zap. I jammed them all in a cheap little crappy ship. The fleet asked, "Why didn't they shoot? What happened." I told them, "I used my crappy little blackbird." They didn't laugh at my crappy blackbird after that or my crazy caracal stuffed full of tracking disrupters.

You do not need the big fancy pants ship to have fun. In fact, flying what you can afford to loose and not giving a damn is where the fun is.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

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