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Questions/Feedback on my first Nightmare fit
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Commander Disarray
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-04-03 17:39:58 UTC
Looking for feedback on my Nightmare fit. Just got my first Nightmare recently and this is what I have after using EFT:

Highs:
4 x Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser (Faction crystals: Multi, Xray, and Standard)
1 x Drone Augmentation
1 x Small Tractor Beam

Mids:
1 x EM Hardener II
1 x Thermic Hardener II
1 x Large Shield Booster II
2 x Shield Amplifier II
1 x Tracking Computer II
1 x Heavy Capacitor Booster II

Lows:
2 x Tracking Enhancer II
3 x Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Rigs:
3 x Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer (to free up a mid slot from a 2nd EM Hardener II)

Drones:
A mix of Hammers and Hobs

DPS with Multifrequency is about 650 (without drones).

Short of Large Beam Laser Specialization and Surgical Strike being at Level 5 (they are both at 4), I have all other Gunnery skills, as well as support skills, related to energy turrets at Level 5. I can't use hardwiring implants to improve my Gunnery effectiveness any more because those slots are being used for something else at the moment.

With this fit, I was able to very easily do a Level 4 Blood Raider mission. I was able to one-shot smaller cruisers (Mallers types), and two-shot larger cruisers (Prophecy types). Battleships took about 4-6 shots.

Should I spend the extra 1.5 months and get Large Beam Laser Spec. and Surgical Strike up to Level 5? I don't think it'll help THAT much more but is it worth it? I've read of people being able to one-shot any cruiser and two-shot any BS. Would I pretty much have to upgrade to an Officer fit plus add implants to get to that level? Or could I get to that level, or close to it, with a different fit?

Thanks!
Dark Pangolin
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2 - 2012-04-03 18:35:24 UTC
I don't do PVE but 3 x Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer (to free up a mid slot from a 2nd EM Hardener II)...google "Stacking Penalties"...
Obeih
Sweatpants Boner
#3 - 2012-04-03 18:46:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Obeih
Pretty standard fit barring what the guy above me said.

Your biggest problem is using the faction Tachs instead of T2.

Large Beam Spec bonuses only apply to modules that require Large Beam Spec so by using faction Tachs you're not getting the damage bonus to the guns. With T2s your DPS should be over 1000 and your alpha, the more important stat in this case, should be around 6k (if i remember right).

Spending the time on Large Beam Spec 5 isn't worth it imo but have surgical strike to 5 helps you all around. In all honesty having amarr and caldari BS 5 will do more for you anyways.

Also get your self some jump clones and fit one of them out with damage and tracking hardwirings.

In short Switch to T2 guns, fix your rigs and use the isk from selling your faction guns on some navy invulns or shield boosters.

Also where do you tend to mission? Looking for a mission buddy.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-04-03 18:47:40 UTC
Large beam laser spec skill gives bonuses to T2 large beams. So with those IN Tachs you don't get damage bonus from that skill.
george harries
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-04-03 19:25:15 UTC
I don't know what you're looking at but in EFT with my skills - which are not perfect I get 890 DPS - all skills at 5 I get 891.5 (and that's with Navy Tachs as well) do you have your Caldari BS skill at 5? I would also question having 3 EM rigs - I actually used to run with 2 CN Invuls for all missions but they are pricey - personally I would dump one of the shield amps slap an xtra large shield booster instead of the large maybe run with 2 invuls and an EM resist for Blood/sansha....keep one of the EM rigs and replace the others for more DPS....you'd need to mess about with EFT a bit but your DPS is way too low......if it were higher far less boosting needed as gank = tank..... hence why you need only 1 shield amp.

Saying that I picked up an officer shield booster on auction for 400m......but still rarely used it as the NM eats through Blood/Sansha missions


Hope that helps
Commander Disarray
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-04-03 19:57:00 UTC
What would you folks recommend in place of the three EM rigs???
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#7 - 2012-04-03 20:07:32 UTC
Commander Disarray wrote:
What would you folks recommend in place of the three EM rigs???


One Energy Discharge Elutriation II. One ACR if needed. One Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II.
Boz Wel
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2012-04-03 21:02:21 UTC
I'd spend a bit of ISK on better tank modules, mainly due to the cost of the ship you're flying. While you don't need to spend many billions on your tank, you also don't want to be so paper thin that you'll be in serious trouble the first time you aggro an additional group of enemies by mistake. As far as your skills go, definitely get all gunnery support to 5 (trajectory analysis can be 4 unless you fly matari). Don't worry about taking the specialization skills to 5 - the DPS increase is minimal for the training involved.

I would look into fitting an afterburner on your ship. It doesn't matter that you can kill the rats super quickly if you then spend the next 5 minutes slowboating to an acceleration gate. You can get a Core C-type for (if I recall correctly) ~120million and they don't take a lot of capacitor to operate. I tend to consider an AB an absolute requirement these days for missions. My typical loadout is a Mach/Tengu duo that each go ~650m/s. Even the Nightmare's ~330m/s with an afterburner will really help on certain missions.

While you have lots of other options with the tank/rigs, I might shoot for something like this for a fairly inexpensive setup:


[Nightmare, New Setup 1]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer

Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Core C-Type 100MN Afterburner
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Shield Boost Amplifier II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam I
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Energy Locus Coordinator I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Ancillary Current Router I
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-04-03 22:56:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Obeih wrote:
Pretty standard fit barring what the guy above me said

Your biggest problem is using the faction Tachs instead of T2

Large Beam Spec bonuses only apply to modules that require Large Beam Spec so by using faction Tachs you're not getting the damage bonus to the guns. With T2s your DPS should be over 1000 and your alpha, the more important stat in this case, should be around 6k (if i remember right)

Spending the time on Large Beam Spec 5 isn't worth it imo but have surgical strike to 5 helps you all around. In all honesty having amarr and caldari BS 5 will do more for you anyways

Also get your self some jump clones and fit one of them out with damage and tracking hardwirings

In short Switch to T2 guns, fix your rigs and use the isk from selling your faction guns on some navy invulns or shield boosters

Also where do you tend to mission? Looking for a mission buddy.


1. T2 tachs will only outperform the navy version by about 5.5%, even less if your large beam laser spec is not maxed.
2. they also use significantly more cap, which means you will have to make the tank mor cap efficient (expensive).
3. in contrast to some other weapon systems, you are not dependant on T2 ammo, at least not in missions, so there is even less reason to fit T2.


as for the build: it is pretty much cookie cutter except for the rigs. if you want to get a little more fancy, go with something like this:

[Nightmare, fancy]

Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency
Drone Link Augmentor
Drone Link Augmentor

Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Photon Scattering Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Pith A-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Heat Dissipation Field II
Gist A-Type 100MN Afterburner
Imperial Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Cap Booster 800

Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


it's cap stable with either guns or shield booster and cap booster running, so you can nuke for as long as possible and only tank as much as needed or go full ****** mode and tank 750dps until you run out of cap booster charges (takes a while).

I should buy an Ishtar.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-04-03 22:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
**** you forum

I should buy an Ishtar.
Obeih
Sweatpants Boner
#11 - 2012-04-03 23:29:44 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Obeih wrote:
Pretty standard fit barring what the guy above me said

Your biggest problem is using the faction Tachs instead of T2

Large Beam Spec bonuses only apply to modules that require Large Beam Spec so by using faction Tachs you're not getting the damage bonus to the guns. With T2s your DPS should be over 1000 and your alpha, the more important stat in this case, should be around 6k (if i remember right)

Spending the time on Large Beam Spec 5 isn't worth it imo but have surgical strike to 5 helps you all around. In all honesty having amarr and caldari BS 5 will do more for you anyways

Also get your self some jump clones and fit one of them out with damage and tracking hardwirings

In short Switch to T2 guns, fix your rigs and use the isk from selling your faction guns on some navy invulns or shield boosters

Also where do you tend to mission? Looking for a mission buddy.


1. T2 tachs will only outperform the navy version by about 5.5%, even less if your large beam laser spec is not maxed.
2. they also use significantly more cap, which means you will have to make the tank mor cap efficient (expensive).
3. in contrast to some other weapon systems, you are not dependant on T2 ammo, at least not in missions, so there is even less reason to fit T2.


as for the build: it is pretty much cookie cutter except for the rigs. if you want to get a little more fancy, go with something like this:

[Nightmare, fancy]

Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency
Drone Link Augmentor
Drone Link Augmentor

Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Photon Scattering Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Pith A-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Heat Dissipation Field II
Gist A-Type 100MN Afterburner
Imperial Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Cap Booster 800

Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


it's cap stable with either guns or shield booster and cap booster running, so you can nuke for as long as possible and only tank as much as needed or go full ****** mode and tank 750dps until you run out of cap booster charges (takes a while).


OP is talking about doing lvl 4 missions. If you need that much high end gear in the mids for lvl 4's you're doing something wrong. I've never needed more than what a T2 tank can provide and never had to warp out due to overwhelming npc dps. You're right, T2 guns use more cap but you're trying to argue cap stability on a ship setup that uses boosters. Inherently it is not a cap stable.

In the end proper target management and max damage is your real tank anyways.
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#12 - 2012-04-04 02:43:18 UTC
I use dread guriatas XL booster - it's cheap and enough for L4 missions. If you move to XL booster you can also drop SBA and fit a tracking computer, which further enhances NM's tracking, or lets you hit farther with multifrequency when using optimal script.

I also think the merit of less cap usage from faction guns is moot if you are using a cap booster setup anyway.
Commander Disarray
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-04-04 14:41:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Disarray
I updated the fit based on comments here. Now it's:

Highs:
4 x Tachyon Beam Laser II
1 x Drone Augmentation
1 x Small Tractor Beam

Mids:
1 x EM Hardener II
1 x Thermic Hardener II
1 x Large Shield Booster II
1 x Shield Amplifier II
2 x Tracking Computer II
1 x F-RX Heavy Capacitor Booster (this one uses 200 less power grid than regular heavy booster)

Lows:
1 x Tracking Enhancer II
4 x Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Rigs:
2 x Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer
1 x Large Locus Coordinator

Changing to T2 Tachyons from faction Tachyons and adding a 4th heat sink took my DPS from the 600's to about 832. I'm still at Caldari BS Level 2 and training up to 4, so there's potential to go over 1,000 DPS. Current Multifrequency range is 49 + 46 KM.

Capacitor lasts 9 minutes, and an XL shield booster would bring it down to 2 minutes. I don't know if I want to upgrade to an XL yet. The mission rats bring me down to about 85% on shields, but that's about where it stops and their numbers start dropping, so I hardly even use the shield booster. I suppose if I go up to XL, I can drop the amplifier and add a 3rd tracking computer, like the poster above said. Must try.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#14 - 2012-04-04 17:10:23 UTC
Almost there...

Normally the concept with cap booster mission boats is you need to be able to run your guns + hardeners stable (without the cap booster) or you'll eat through too many boosters (Use T2 discharge elutriation to help). Also, get your BS skills to 4 ASAP especially if you're running a nightmare.

My favourite L4 booster is Pith C-Type, only slightly more expensive than DG/CN but gets that awesome cycle time AND more shield boost than them, what you want is XL-Booster + 3 Hardeners, you need that burst tank for cap booster. Drop one heat sink and use T2, it's only a 1 digit dps difference usually when you're that stacking penalized.
Commander Disarray
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-04-04 17:41:54 UTC
Once I'm home, I'll try the XL shield booster and drop the Shield Boost Amplifier. In the amplifiers place, I'll put in a 2nd EM Ward Field II so I'll have three hardeners (2 x EM hardeners and 1 x Thermic). Then, I can drop the two EM hardener rigs, and put in a Discharge Elutriation and one other rig. I think that should do it!

Or I was thinking instead of a 2nd EM hardener, should I do an Invulnerability field instead? The Nightmare is only there for EM based missions so I'm guessing that two EM hardeners and one Thermic hardener is better than one EM, one Thermic, and one Invulnerability?