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New dev blog: Team Security - Now with 100% more Anti-RMT

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Victor Valka
Insterstellar Mining and Manufacturing
#421 - 2012-04-04 15:13:30 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
MissGemini wrote:
@CCP Screegs - I have info I would like to convey in an anon fashion, how should I do this?


security@ccpgames.com I'm the only one who sees it
Is that an invitation to send nudes or what!? Lol
Chris Wheeler
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#422 - 2012-04-04 15:27:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Wheeler
CCP Sreegs wrote:
security@ccpgames.com I'm the only one who sees it

I'm SOOO gonna send you inappropriate pictures.
e: I got beat to it! ooooh, I'll send a picture of that!
Par'Gellen
#423 - 2012-04-04 15:49:56 UTC
I didn't read the entire thread but my only concern about the whole botting/banning thing would be false positives. For instance: If I were to try to log in one day and got an "You've been banned!" message I would need to know why in detail since I don't bot or deal with RMT in any way THAT I AM AWARE OF. I buy and sell large quantities of various things on the market and contracts all the time and I have no idea if the buyers and sellers are botters or RMT'ers. Does that connect me to them in terms of flagging?

And my biggest concern is what's to stop some rich asshat who is mad at me and fed up with the game and never going to play again from sending me isk and then reporting me as RMT? I understand he would be killing his own account as well but if he doesn't care about that then what's to stop him?

These are the things that concern me about this whole affair.

If you can assure me this kind false positive thing can't happen then I'm all for it!

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...
Ximena Navah
Vox Shadows
#424 - 2012-04-04 15:51:14 UTC
Chris Wheeler wrote:
Allataria wrote:
This was an argument to reduce botting not RMT. Your statement seems that you still don't understand the reasoning most people use to support why they not. All I see is we aren't willing to look at new ways to improve our game and help our players we just want a quick solution regardless of the implications that it creates. When I mean fun I mean anything other then warp to belt kill these rats. Warp to next belt. Rinse repeat. Missed are far enjoyable then ratting or running anomalies. Null sec and all space needs more and engaging ways to make isk. Sitting in a belt with a miner or ratting ship for six hours a day is not fun way to make island compared to missions in high sec.

Your statement is highly disturbing for those of us who want the game to improve itself and that CCP is listening to the entire playerbase not just a minority. More research could have been done in understanding why people bot and ask those who do why they do it so the game can be improve d for the better and enjoyment for all instead of you will be banned and we don't care about trying to improve the game.

It will be interesting to see how the market will react to all these accounts being banned when so much of the.economy depends on their output. My guess is negatively. Might be a good time to start buying minerals


Let me summarize for TLDR crowd: "It's not my fault I bot, ITS A DISEASE! I am a VICTIM. (please send isk to this poor, helpless victim)"


Twisted

Perhaps the Security Team should look in depth into "Martyr's Vengeance" - I heard one irish dude had a few bots up in venal while in the "testagram" in Deklein Twisted
Grikath
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#425 - 2012-04-04 15:57:09 UTC
Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.

Highsec isn't "Safe".  Neither is it a playground for bullies and bottomfeeders. So stop complaining and start playing the game already.
Ibn Taymiyyah
eM' Roid Extraction Services
#426 - 2012-04-04 15:59:46 UTC
Good work. Nice to see some giants fall of the cliff

CCP Sreegs, this whole thing about people not having a way of knowing who's the bad guy reminded me of your thread about the name and shame, and why chars that have been banned for botting in the past should be marked. Well, this is one of the other cenarios where people would be, at least, more careful when handing out isk, regardless if it's a loan or a donation. Whatever

Just thought I'd add this to the discussion. Sorry if someone else brought it up already but I didn't manage to read the whole thread as real life happened and prevented me from doing so! :D
Par'Gellen
#427 - 2012-04-04 16:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Par'Gellen
Grikath wrote:
Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.

That does not assure me in the slightest... Hell at this point I'm actually concerned about buying or selling anything.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...
Selissa Shadoe
#428 - 2012-04-04 16:27:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Selissa Shadoe
I think while it's understandable that we're against botters since they ruin the market it's interesting to see that although there's lots of punishment ideas being waved around noone has mentioned WHY the botters even exist to begin with. If a part of the gameplay can be so simple to be replicated by a software program then shouldn't the focus be on trying to change that aspect of gameplay?

The whole 'scarlet letter' thread and 'plex for snitches' is disturbing since it sounds too much like Nazi Germany (yes, I went there) and you have the distinct possibility of abuse of the system, as mentioned about people falsely reporting their foes.

All in all I think it would wise to tread carefully on any punishment scheme since this is a GAME after all, and if it becomes too draconian then people will leave it.

EDIT: apparently not possible to Godwin the thread these days..

"Whether suicide ganking or doing anything in eve, there are exorbitant amounts of people in the game and on the forums that are complete jerks." - Spikeflach
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#429 - 2012-04-04 16:36:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Killer Gandry
I reckon you also keep your eyes on E-Bay and Graigslist and such.
Plenty of illegal stuff going on there.

E-Bay you could make use of the VeRO-Program to get those removed.

just a suggestion
Par'Gellen
#430 - 2012-04-04 16:38:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Par'Gellen
Is there any way I can alert CCP when I'm going to do something that might get me flagged? Do I need to submit a petition before each market sale or isk transfer?

Something like:
"I'm selling/buying a rediculously large pile of PI stuff today. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!"
"I'm transfering a rediculously large amount of isk between alts today. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!"
"I'm depositing/removing a rediculously large amount of isk to/from the corp wallet today. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!"
"I'm gonna grind some missions today. My alt(s) might help out. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!"

Et cetera ad infinitum...

I'm all for botters/RMT destruction but I do NOT want to be lumped in with them through normal gameplay.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#431 - 2012-04-04 16:48:06 UTC
Selissa Shadoe wrote:
I think while it's understandable that we're against botters since they ruin the market it's interesting to see that although there's lots of punishment ideas being waved around noone has mentioned WHY the botters even exist to begin with. If a part of the gameplay can be so simple to be replicated by a software program then shouldn't the focus be on trying to change that aspect of gameplay?

There is no gameplay mechanism that is both easy enough to be fun for ordinary players and too complex to automate.

In fact, gameplay complexity can reach a point where it becomes hard enough that people who wouldn't normally be tempted to use a bot because something was boring are tempted because it is too difficult otherwise.

When it comes to games, a program running on your computer:
1. can see what is going on better than you can.
2. has perfect reaction time
3. has infinite patience
4. Can react to queues that the client deliberately hides from players.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
agrajag119
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#432 - 2012-04-04 16:58:16 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Is there any way I can alert CCP when I'm going to do something that might get me flagged? Do I need to submit a petition before each market sale or isk transfer?

Something like:
"I'm selling/buying a rediculously large pile of PI stuff today. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!"
"I'm transfering a rediculously large amount of isk between alts today. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!"
"I'm depositing/removing a rediculously large amount of isk to/from the corp wallet today. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!"
"I'm gonna grind some missions today. My alt(s) might help out. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!"

Et cetera ad infinitum...

I'm all for botters/RMT destruction but I do NOT want to be lumped in with them through normal gameplay.


Sreegs has already said that they're detection mechanisms are complex enough that normal activities don't show up. Think about it, if that sort of activity got you flagged, they would be looking at a ridiculous number of each day. In order for their scripts to be effective, they have to be selective.

Now he can't go into details, simply because the bott / rmt crowd is reading this too. If he said "we watch for xxx activity", they would just stop doing that.

Put down the tinfoil for a minute and realize that this guys RL job depends on his accuracy in finding legit abusers, not the innocent. If he doesn't do it right, he's back to eating ramen each day and looking for work. If nothing else, trust in his own desire to be employed Blink
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#433 - 2012-04-04 17:05:06 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
Skye Aurorae wrote:
I mean I have ads popup alongside my youtube tutorial videos that occasionally advertise the sale of Isk and items in Eve, I have no control over these ads


Seem to remember reading something a while back about the way youtube handles IP claims, ie someone claiming eve vids etc places adds on others vids where the one claiming IP rights gets the advertising revenue, also seems a good way for RMT crowd gaining free aditional money for the adds, might be worth either yourself seeing about disputing the ownership of the vids on youtube or better CCP games doing so.

atm in middle of something in eve, when i can i'll see about tracking down the news article about this and post a link on this thread.
Found it.


http://torrentfreak.com/youtubes-content-id-piracy-filter-wreaks-havoc-110908/


You're welcome to send some examples of these ads to security@ccpgames.com. We haven't yet done much about it but it's been on the radar.


i myself am constantly running into these adds on EVE youtube videos advertiseing RMT for EVE as well as bot programs, though i thought CCP didnt really care about the stuff on youtube, its good to see that it is indeed in your scope.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#434 - 2012-04-04 17:05:32 UTC
&

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#435 - 2012-04-04 17:06:46 UTC
Grikath wrote:
Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.

have you ever tried to petition anything with a banned account?

its rather tricky

lol

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Par'Gellen
#436 - 2012-04-04 17:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Par'Gellen
agrajag119 wrote:
Sreegs has already said that they're detection mechanisms are complex enough that normal activities don't show up. Think about it, if that sort of activity got you flagged, they would be looking at a ridiculous number of each day. In order for their scripts to be effective, they have to be selective.

Now he can't go into details, simply because the bott / rmt crowd is reading this too. If he said "we watch for xxx activity", they would just stop doing that.

Put down the tinfoil for a minute and realize that this guys RL job depends on his accuracy in finding legit abusers, not the innocent. If he doesn't do it right, he's back to eating ramen each day and looking for work. If nothing else, trust in his own desire to be employed Blink

I see your point. It just scares the hell out of me. I've got a lot of time in this game (pushing 9 years now) and am able to easily do things that others might find quite difficult. It just bothers me that what I consider every-day gameplay might risk getting me flagged as a RMTer or something and after reading this entire thread I see nothing that reassures me that that can't happen.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#437 - 2012-04-04 17:21:04 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:
Grikath wrote:
Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.

have you ever tried to petition anything with a banned account?

its rather tricky

lol


Ever heard of starting a new trail account and petition from there?

Doesn't need rocketscience you know.
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#438 - 2012-04-04 17:25:58 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
agrajag119 wrote:
Sreegs has already said that they're detection mechanisms are complex enough that normal activities don't show up. Think about it, if that sort of activity got you flagged, they would be looking at a ridiculous number of each day. In order for their scripts to be effective, they have to be selective.

Now he can't go into details, simply because the bott / rmt crowd is reading this too. If he said "we watch for xxx activity", they would just stop doing that.

Put down the tinfoil for a minute and realize that this guys RL job depends on his accuracy in finding legit abusers, not the innocent. If he doesn't do it right, he's back to eating ramen each day and looking for work. If nothing else, trust in his own desire to be employed Blink

I see your point. It just scares the hell out of me. I've got a lot of time in this game (pushing 9 years now) and am able to easily do things that others might find quite difficult. It just bothers me that what I consider every-day gameplay might risk getting me flagged as a RMTer or something and after reading this entire thread I see nothing that reassures me that that can't happen.



Was thinking the same earlier, posted 1 or 2 pages ago on this thread. Sometimes I just have "big" transactions happening when me and my friend get loot in DED sites and we split the value between us before we even sell the thing so as to have just 1 person worry about the market. Call me paranoid but some assurance from Sreegs that this doesn't result in a flag would be nice =)
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#439 - 2012-04-04 17:33:55 UTC
Chris Wheeler wrote:
Allataria wrote:
CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner.


This reads like a left-wing political commentary. Pro illegal immigration (bots) because the legal citizens(players) don't want to do the work that the illegals are willing to do.
Supply and demand will balance everything out. Illegals get deported, ore supply will drop causing prices to go up (and prices of everything else as well). Since ore prices are higher, it is now worthwhile for legal citizens to mine, which will increase supply and lower prices. Prices are going to bob around until they reach equilibrium. The Government (ccp) needs to enforce the laws they produce (ex: no bots) and let the market regulate itself. They are doing that and all legal citizens will benefit from it.
If making money was easy and the funnest thing in the game, inflation would skyrocket, but just like in the real world, the fun comes from SPENDING the money:)
Also, Sreegs rocks.


But after years of living and thriving in EvE, how can you have the heart to deport bots into the horrific conditions of other games. They've really silently accepted as part of EvE for years, funding alliances and supercaps and shouldering the grunt work!!! Don't their long hours and monotonous work count for anything? How can you strip their accounts of all they have produced?? Do you not have a heart?
Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#440 - 2012-04-04 17:47:44 UTC
Butthurt botters and RMT'ers in this thread.

Rote Kapelle - NOW IN SLIGHTLY MORE LAW ABIDING FLAVOR!

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