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New dev blog: Team Security - Now with 100% more Anti-RMT

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#361 - 2012-04-04 07:04:08 UTC
Nemesis Factor wrote:
I tend to really lose faith in humanity when the most forum active Dev in CCP catches so much **** from players.

I find it really hard to grasp why anyone would be made nervous by that blog. Have some faith that they are trying to catch bots, not harass players. If you are nervous based simply on reading that blog, your probably doing something shady.

Kudos to the security team, BTW.


You too would get nervous if suddenly what you are playing EvE for since years, suddenly became a suspicious activity to be watched closely.

Read my signature:

Collateral holding / 3rd party service => have to swap tens of billions worth of stuff all the time. Being a trusted collateral holder / 3rd party service in EvE is extremely hard as it involves total trust.
Suddenly the hardest achievement in EvE - takes years to become trusted to hold Titans on behalf of 3rd parties - becomes a potential banhammer trigger.

Investing => again, something done for years. Putting tens of billions in the hands of other players *in EvE none the less* with the hope to see them back after 1+ months. Risky enough? No, now the likes of you consider it "something shady".

Charity => again, something done for enough time to be showcased at Fanfest 2011. Yet, how do I choose how to NOT get a donation off a RMTer and be royally screwed over?


Now, all of the above would not be an issue if CCP - like most other MMO companies - would reply to petitions within 1 day. But no, they take up to 3 weeks and then you lose all your credibility you patiently earned in game, you lose all your POS jobs, you lose the POS as well (as it'll go offline) and you will NOT be reimbursed. Also, as posted everywhere time after time, there's NO sanctioned way to prove CCP you were not involved in something, therefore bar few exceptions you'll never get cleared your ban. You'll go from trusted service to purple letter felon with no recourse, no hope, no coming back.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#362 - 2012-04-04 07:11:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:


Seriously - would you go cry your tears somewhere else. Loaning ISK is a game mechanic *created* by the players so CCP has no responsibility to guarantee your loans.

Would you have any sympathy for me *if* I rented space in 0.0 and was scammed? Would you have any sympathy if I was ransomed in low sec, paid the ransom and got killed anyway? Would you have any sympathy for me if I paid GS to join them only to find it was a scam?

No.

So why should we have any sympathy for you if you load someone ISK and you end up losing it? You seem to be asking for a stone cold guarantee for your "business".

Well, guess what? This is EVE. You want guarantees, go play another game. Roll

PAN


Do you believe I give a crap about losing 10B off a failed loan? NO.
I give many craps about being banned because I got paid back the loan yet the dude's payback money came from RMT and that "virally" made me banned. Even if "only" banned for the 3 weeks needed to have a GM look at what happened.
Learn to understand what others write.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#363 - 2012-04-04 07:27:17 UTC
This is an interesting topic and something that has been on my mind for years when it comes to my 3rd party business.

I have no way of knowing where ISK orginates from, and is also the reason why I don't ask because I would simply be lied to anyway. I however do practise caution and avoid assisting if I feel things are dodgy or I suspect RMT.

Another practise I take is to always try keep a record of buyer and seller and who ISK is being sent to.

For example ISK flows buyer->me->seller, rather than buyer->me->random alt created 2 days ago - that (I think) makes it easier for CCP to trace the flow as well, plus hopefully it keeps me out of trouble.

I also do report suspicious transfers as I don't wish to be banned myself and I do not support RMT. I do see the problems with loans that VV is talking about as that is a somewhat different thing compared to my 3rd party service.

I'd be happy to support CCP in any way I can and hope that they continue on discussing this with us should there be issues with how me and others provide services to help making it harder to RMT.

/c

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar
voetius
Grundrisse
#364 - 2012-04-04 07:53:41 UTC
cyndrogen wrote:


Which begs the question, is it cheaper to pay a security team money to ban botters instead of fixing the actual game mechanics?


You can change game mechanics but cheaters will cheat regardless.

Good work Sreegs and team.
Feawin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#365 - 2012-04-04 07:57:13 UTC
I've been waiting for this a while. It's good to see it's finally happening. Dear CCP; you continue to impress me with your new-found resolve.
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#366 - 2012-04-04 08:03:17 UTC
Sreegs one suggestion i have for banned accounts besides not bio massing the chars so the name cant be reused is this.

where the banned RMT/botting account has officer/faction/deadspace items either on ships or in hangers, rather than simply remove them etc, put them up for auction and have the isk/equiv plex amount be donated monthly to charrity like make a wish foundation.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#367 - 2012-04-04 08:21:46 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
Sreegs have u guys thought about combating the injection bots with simplistic encryption and sending the encryption key using QKD? (Quantum Key Distribution)

have wondered myself if the tech has gotten robust enough to be used over TCP/IP networks yet, and if encrypting communication from the server to the client will severely degrade the servers performance.

anyways keep up the good work bro!
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#368 - 2012-04-04 08:28:28 UTC
Burn em all. Only way to be sure.

I approve. Love and kisses :)

Keep up the good work and I might put away my bitter vet hat and get out the happy vet hat instead.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Grikath
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#369 - 2012-04-04 08:39:14 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Learn to understand what others write.


Vaerah, why don't you take your own advice, or your meds, or preferably both, and stop beating the dead dog..
It's getting squishy.

Sreegs has answered your incessant questioning, no make that whining, with more grace and patience than you deserve, and answered your "concern" to the best of his ability and without giving actual methods away other than that while the flagging/tracking system is at least partly automated, each case/cluster is individually handled to ensure the Knife is properly Twisted.

The fact that his answer is not to your liking falls under HTFU.
From where I'm sitting you are simply trying to get him to admit you are a Special Case and are ...."Safe", or have him stumble over some of your verbal diarhhea and make a remark you can later claim as "proof" that you have been Woefully Done Wrong.

Sreegs does not speculate, does not comment on hypothetical cases other than "we'll deal with it if the situation crops up", and will never give you what you seem to desire.

Highsec isn't "Safe".  Neither is it a playground for bullies and bottomfeeders. So stop complaining and start playing the game already.
Cairo
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#370 - 2012-04-04 08:40:18 UTC
These changes get a big thumbs up from me, especially the move to a daily cycle. As I believe Screegs mentioned in his Fanfest presentation, it makes RMT'ing less appealing because there's no downtime during which to amass fortunes.

I see another upside, too, which I don't think anyone brought up yet: if the security team decides to extend their net and RMT-enabled collateral damage happens - wether it's lost ISK, virtual property or time and effort people have poured into this game - it'll be more granular and easily mitigated than before. Instead of a singular, big blow that tallies all the bad stuff some people did over time and potentially touches innocent people they dealt with in considerable ways, the losses will be easier to handle. Less ISK lost, less time wasted. In theory, anyway.

I know I'd rather get dinged by a day's worth of trading if RMT-enabled property somehow passed through my hands and the security team saw fit to withdraw profits made from them (or I was simply paid with tainted ISK), than hear about it a month or two later after unknowingly doing more business with the same people. At that point it would hurt much, much more. Likewise a corporation or an alliance probably won't topple over a single day's secret illegal activity by some of their members (who also get rooted out much faster).

Naturally this all relies on the security team's ability to keep the cycle up and none of us can tell the future. I like the direction and intent, however, and wish the team a great deal of fortitude.
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#371 - 2012-04-04 08:48:08 UTC
DeODokktor wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Shandir wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier.

You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspx

Those may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk. The only place to buy PLEX is from the account management section of our website or ingame for is.

I hope that helps.

I believe this is inaccurate given there's a GTC > ISK trading forum and feature in account management on EVE's site.

Legal ways to get 3rd party GTCs into ISK. Either GTC > PLEX conversion feature in game > ISK, or GTC > GTC trading feature on EVE's site > ISK.


That's what I get for reposting what someone else said v0v

If those things exist then yeah I guess you can use them.



Nice, Another dev in charge of something who doesnt know of the mechanisms that the game has in play to support "Legal RMT".
Lets hope he didnt ban every player from feb/march who traded GTC for ISK via the forums ;P...

Actually, Sreegs is right.

The GTC's sold on the forums will always be directly applied as time on the receiving account. Nice to see players flame devs for not knowing how things works when they actually do.

How to win EVE
Anton Knoffield
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#372 - 2012-04-04 08:50:32 UTC
All I have to say is THANK YOU CCP!...

- for taking a higher and much more aggressive to this game community destroying activity.... eat your heart out blizzard!
- for beginning to ensure that the hurt-locker of bans will be swift and only real eve online players rule this sandbox!
- for seeking to be the tide that washes the beach of bot kingdoms to the ground

Keep up the good work... I have an empire to runTwisted
Eduardo'o
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#373 - 2012-04-04 08:51:13 UTC
Allataria wrote:
CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner.


So ....; whe you loose ships, you suffer more since it will be more boring to make the isk back .... that sounds like the entire purpose of this game !

by the way, if prices go up, honest miners and producers will be more happy
Di Jiensai
United Mining and Hauling Inc
The Initiative.
#374 - 2012-04-04 08:52:21 UTC
CCP Sreegs, do you realize that you probably have the most awesomest job in the world?

"I am an Internet Spaceship Sheriff. And i get paid for it."

Also: keep doing what you are doing, and you will never have to pay for a single beer ever again on fanfest.
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
#375 - 2012-04-04 08:54:48 UTC
I’m concerned that I have loaned ISK to a character called LaVsita Vista a few years ago but can not verify if he is a non-botting non-RMT player. He was closely associated with a high profile player who was banned for RMT. Lol

Fear God and Thread Nought
Francisco Bizzaro
#376 - 2012-04-04 08:56:26 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Now, all of the above would not be an issue if CCP - like most other MMO companies - would reply to petitions within 1 day. But no, they take up to 3 weeks and then you lose all your credibility you patiently earned in game, you lose all your POS jobs, you lose the POS as well (as it'll go offline) and you will NOT be reimbursed. Also, as posted everywhere time after time, there's NO sanctioned way to prove CCP you were not involved in something, therefore bar few exceptions you'll never get cleared your ban. You'll go from trusted service to purple letter felon with no recourse, no hope, no coming back.

Do you lie awake at night worrying about the asteroid that could come crashing through your roof any minute? It hasn't happened. It probably won't happen. So there's no point in acting like you are already the victim.

Take some precautions to prevent it from happening (see Chribba's suggestions above). Otherwise, just deal with it when the time comes.

Based on many replies from Sreegs, I guess you're not going to get that iron-clad guarantee that your money-laundering business is safe in perpetuity. So like the rest of us, just do your best to keep your nose clean and trust that the world is not out to victimize you.
Artyom Hunter
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
#377 - 2012-04-04 09:24:02 UTC
Just Curious. If i'm transfering money to my Highsec Market alt to buy ships/ Gear to ship to my PvP activities in nullsec... Will the system be able to tell between that and RMT? Otherwise I'll have a "FUUUUUUUN" time everytime I wanna get more equipment, having to JC to Highsec, buy the gear contract it home and jc back 24 hours later... See the problem? Wastes a couple of days...
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#378 - 2012-04-04 09:36:05 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
I hate to be, THAT GUY, but what happen to me being able to use my little security code thing i got at LAST YEARS FANFEST.

Are you guys that ADHD?


ETA is July 2012. It was mentioned in CCP Sreeg's last thread (regarding the Scarlet Letters).

It probably will happen at the same time as the Launcher becomes the "login" point for the game. At least, that's my guess.


woot

also I'm confused... isn't the new launcher... the old launcher from 2003?

O.o

once we log into eve from it... what makes it different from the 2003 launcher?

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
XIRUSPHERE
In Bacon We Trust
#379 - 2012-04-04 09:43:09 UTC
Thank you guys so much for turning the fight against RMT and botters into a full scale asymmetric war. It's been long overdue and it's time the practice become a rarity instead of a bitter joke.

I applaud most your move to disable character sales and trades of these accounts, this one change in policy is going to literally cut the legs out from under the cheating presence within EVE.

I wish I could buy you all a beer.

The advantage of a bad memory is that one can enjoy the same good things for the first time several times.

One will rarely err if extreme actions be ascribed to vanity, ordinary actions to habit, and mean actions to fear.
Artyom Hunter
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
#380 - 2012-04-04 09:44:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Artyom Hunter
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nemesis Factor wrote:
I tend to really lose faith in humanity when the most forum active Dev in CCP catches so much **** from players.

I find it really hard to grasp why anyone would be made nervous by that blog. Have some faith that they are trying to catch bots, not harass players. If you are nervous based simply on reading that blog, your probably doing something shady.

Kudos to the security team, BTW.


You too would get nervous if suddenly what you are playing EvE for since years, suddenly became a suspicious activity to be watched closely.

Read my signature:

Collateral holding / 3rd party service => have to swap tens of billions worth of stuff all the time. Being a trusted collateral holder / 3rd party service in EvE is extremely hard as it involves total trust.
Suddenly the hardest achievement in EvE - takes years to become trusted to hold Titans on behalf of 3rd parties - becomes a potential banhammer trigger.

Investing => again, something done for years. Putting tens of billions in the hands of other players *in EvE none the less* with the hope to see them back after 1+ months. Risky enough? No, now the likes of you consider it "something shady".

Charity => again, something done for enough time to be showcased at Fanfest 2011. Yet, how do I choose how to NOT get a donation off a RMTer and be royally screwed over?


Now, all of the above would not be an issue if CCP - like most other MMO companies - would reply to petitions within 1 day. But no, they take up to 3 weeks and then you lose all your credibility you patiently earned in game, you lose all your POS jobs, you lose the POS as well (as it'll go offline) and you will NOT be reimbursed. Also, as posted everywhere time after time, there's NO sanctioned way to prove CCP you were not involved in something, therefore bar few exceptions you'll never get cleared your ban. You'll go from trusted service to purple letter felon with no recourse, no hope, no coming back.




Actually, as much as I dislike RMTers, This guy has a point. In my early EVE days i'd often run around in Couster helping random noobs by doing l3 Missions with them and giving them ISK so that they might actually get the fullgame, especially if I knew them IRL (So I'd eventually have more people to shoot at). Sure i'd only give them like 10m or so each to get them their first cruiser, but if charity makes me an evil RMTing scum bucket then it might be a bit too harsh.

Furthermore, with ingame PLEX prices costing around 500m a pop, It is difficult for PLEX reliant players to get back on their feet after extende periods away from the game, and may need loans from Corpmates because they don't have the means to get 500m isk before their account runs out. E.G Someone a know IRL was away from the game for about a month because he was hospitalized for a bone infection, and he has been having a little bit of trouble with overnight checkups and what not reducing the amount of time he has had to make money for PLEX. He is sometimes forced to take loans from corpmates/me to help his accounts get going (which is always paysback mind you). So how will the system/ security be able to tell between a 500m PLEX loan and a 500m RMT transaction?