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Maelstrom VS Tempest with Minmatar BS V
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DIsposible Hero
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-04-04 02:13:17 UTC
So I've long considered the Maelstrom to be the big brother of the Tempest; its the tier 3 battleship, so that means it should be the biggest and the best, right? It certainly has an impressive tank, and can fit more guns than the Tempest. But does more guns = more DPS? Apparently not if you've trained Minmatar Battleship to V. Due to the Tempest's damage bonus, a Tempest with 6 guns can actually do more bonused damage than a Maelstrom, and with it's extra low slot it can also fit an extra gyro / tracking enhancer. I'm in the drone regions, so its also dead handy to be able to fit a tractor beam and salvager so I can loot while I fight.

What I want to know is; does the extra DPS offset the lack of tank? I'm new to the drone regions in general so I don't know yet how the Tempest's tank will perform; it may exclude me from the tougher anomolies. My current fit is something like this:

Highs:

6x 800m Repeating Artillery II
Small tractor beam
Salvager

Mids:

X-Large Shield booster
Explosive Shield Hardener
Kinetic Shield Hardener
Adaptive Invunerability field
100mn Afterburner II

Lows:

2x Gyrostabs
3x Tracking enhancer
1x Coprocessor II


So, is it worth going with the Tempest if I'm after pure isk / hour?
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-04-04 02:19:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
No, the Mael will always get more dps than the Tempest.

BS V:

'Pest: 6*1.5 = 9
Mael: 8*1.25 = 10

The ratio of the damage bonuses (2:1 in favor of the Tempest) remains the same regardless of what level you have Matar BS to.

BS III:

'Pest: 6*1.3 = 7.8
Mael: 8*1.15 = 9.2

So not only does the Maelstrom have superior tank, it's also got superior dps. The extra DPS of a Tempest does not offset the lack of tank because it doesn't have any extra DPS. There is basically no reason to use a Tempest over a Maelstrom, unless you really really want the extra 2 utility highs. A Noctis would be wise if you went with a mael, while it's not as necessary if you use a pest.
DIsposible Hero
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-04-04 02:24:07 UTC
Are you sure that's right? Where did you get 1.5 and 1.25 from?

Also, what if I had launchers in the highs?
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#4 - 2012-04-04 02:46:39 UTC
DIsposible Hero wrote:
Are you sure that's right? Where did you get 1.5 and 1.25 from?

Also, what if I had launchers in the highs?


from math class

with bonuses at V mael does 25% more and tempest 50% more damage.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#5 - 2012-04-04 02:55:35 UTC
I've never seen it mathematically explained like that. The Tempest at level 5 gets a 25% damage boost. 6 turrets x 125% = 7.5 turrets in effect. The Maelstrom always has 8 turrets no matter what level you have Minmatar BS trained to. This little fact is why the Mael is currently the nullsec favorite - ease of entry.

The Tempest is faster, more agile, cheaper and has it's choice of armour or shield tanking. It can fit two large nuets or two siege launchers - making it a higher DPS platform then the Mael.
JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#6 - 2012-04-04 02:57:17 UTC
His math was not quite correct, but the conclusion was, the Mael does more damage.

Calculation for the Maelstrom is like this: 5% reduction in rate of fire per level, so 25% reduction at level 5.

We can measure damage in "effective turrets"

DPS = damage/rate of fire
DPS = 8/(0.75) = 10.67 effective turrets

The 8 is for the number of turrets and the 0.75 because the rate of fire is now 75% of what it was before we got the 25% bonus.

Now the math for the Tempest

DPS = (6*1.25)/(0.75) = 10 effective turrets

1.25 multiplier to damage because of the 5% damage bonus and again the rate of fire is 0.75 because of the 25% rate of fire reduction.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#7 - 2012-04-04 03:00:02 UTC
Mael for PvE always, as you can't really capitalize on the Tempests advantages (Utility highs, agility, speed) and the Mael has it all where it matters most (tank, dps).
JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#8 - 2012-04-04 03:00:35 UTC
nahjustwarpin wrote:
DIsposible Hero wrote:
Are you sure that's right? Where did you get 1.5 and 1.25 from?

Also, what if I had launchers in the highs?


from math class

with bonuses at V mael does 25% more and tempest 50% more damage.

Time to go back to math class, those numbers are wrong What?
DIsposible Hero
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-04-04 03:03:20 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Mael for PvE always, as you can't really capitalize on the Tempests advantages (Utility highs, agility, speed) and the Mael has it all where it matters most (tank, dps).


I'm fighting rogue drones, remember? I can totally capitalize on the utility slots Big smile

Sounds like its close either way; current plan is to use a solo Tempest until my dedicated salvage toon is ready, then switch to the Mael.
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#10 - 2012-04-04 09:07:07 UTC
nahjustwarpin wrote:
DIsposible Hero wrote:
Are you sure that's right? Where did you get 1.5 and 1.25 from?

Also, what if I had launchers in the highs?


from math class

with bonuses at V mael does 25% more and tempest 50% more damage.


From math: 1.25*1/0.75=1.66667777
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#11 - 2012-04-04 13:17:33 UTC
Kaikka Carel wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
DIsposible Hero wrote:
Are you sure that's right? Where did you get 1.5 and 1.25 from?

Also, what if I had launchers in the highs?


from math class

with bonuses at V mael does 25% more and tempest 50% more damage.


From math: 1.25*1/0.75=1.66667777


it's already in JackStraw56's post (although next time, copy paste from calculator, because you are not 100% correct either).

i admit i was wrong relying on someone else's post
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-04-04 14:37:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Blah, my maths don't really matter since the ROF bonus is the one they both have anyway Oops

Really though, now I'm confused. Isn't the rate of fire how frequently a weapon fires in a set time period?

So a weapon which fires once every second would have a ROF of 1shot/second

Shouldn't increasing the rate of fire by 25% mean shooting 1.25shots/second - in other words, 25% more dps?

edit: NVM, I get it now, somebody in a different thread explained to me how EVE treats rof mechanics...
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#13 - 2012-04-04 15:48:02 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
Blah, my maths don't really matter since the ROF bonus is the one they both have anyway Oops

Really though, now I'm confused. Isn't the rate of fire how frequently a weapon fires in a set time period?


You'd be correct if this wasn't EVE, where things don't work the way they do in real life.

In EVE, a "RoF bonus" is actually a reduction of the delay between two shots.

A "25% RoF bonus" is, in EVE reality, a reduction of the delay between two shots of (1 - 0.25%)=75%. This means that your DPS actually is (1 / 0.75)=1.333... of what it would be without the bonus.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#14 - 2012-04-04 16:21:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
nahjustwarpin wrote:
DIsposible Hero wrote:
Are you sure that's right? Where did you get 1.5 and 1.25 from?

Also, what if I had launchers in the highs?


from math class

with bonuses at V mael does 25% more and tempest 50% more damage.

Go back to class. A 5% ROF bonus equates to a 33% dps boost at level 5


A pest has 6 * 1.25 / .75 effective guns;10
A mael has 8 / .75 effective guns; 10.666

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-04-04 19:23:50 UTC
With missiles it will do more damage.
Tenga Halaris
Galactic Traders Union
#16 - 2012-04-04 20:11:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tenga Halaris
...go for a Machariel, since both Mael and Pest are slow and have low DPS. Pest has no tank and Mael is a flying brick.
DIsposible Hero
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-04-04 22:42:44 UTC
Tenga Halaris wrote:
...go for a Machariel, since both Mael and Pest are slow and have low DPS. Pest has no tank and Mael is a flying brick.


Thats exactly what I'm saving for; but for now i'll be using a pimped out Maelstrom with a tracking computer and 3x tracking enhancers. That way I don't have to move anywhere, I just sit in one spot and then everything dies.
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#18 - 2012-04-04 23:40:44 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
DIsposible Hero wrote:
Are you sure that's right? Where did you get 1.5 and 1.25 from?

Also, what if I had launchers in the highs?


from math class

with bonuses at V mael does 25% more and tempest 50% more damage.

Go back to class. A 5% ROF bonus equates to a 33% dps boost at level 5


A pest has 6 * 1.25 / .75 effective guns;10
A mael has 8 / .75 effective guns; 10.666



dude, just read whole topic. i already said i was wrong and you obviously try to be smart guy and repeat what others said
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-04-04 23:46:35 UTC
Kattshiro wrote:
With missiles it will do more damage.



I use two heavy missile launchers and get more DPS in my pests I use when I run missions.


Also I have done missions with nothing more then one large or XL shield booster. You should be killing things so fast in a tempest that tank is not an issue.

3 TE 3 or 4 gyros shield tank in mids.

Tempest is a great mission ship once you are skilled enough to not need the Maelstroms overtaking properties. And one hell of a lot cheaper then a Mach.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#20 - 2012-04-05 02:17:10 UTC
I understand how the double bonused ships get 66% damage bonus. But could someone explain how you get a 33% damage boost with just a 25% RoF boost?

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
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