These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Assembly Hall

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Issue] Regular Capital ships are mostly obsolete
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#1 - 2012-04-02 00:22:30 UTC
While people are talking about Super Capital Ships, many have completely forgotten that regular Dreadnoughts and Carriers exist.

Regular Capital Ships are used less and less due to the Issue of their reliance of active tanking and that their roles can easily be performed by other ships.

Lets start off with Carriers. Carriers' Logistics role has been relegated to SuperCarriers and Logistic Ships. The reasons being that:

-Carrier will almost always die to a Single DD from a Titan making it dead on arrival in a supercapital fight.

-3-4 Logistics can the do job of one carrier while being cheaper and generally more survivable than the Carrier.

-Supercarrier can do the remote rep job of a non-triage carrier while maintaining supertank and anti Battleship and Capital abilities with their fighter (bombers).

-Triage allows the carrier to maintain high tank and RR, but at the cost of being unable to receive RR and vulnerable to damage and neuts for 5 minutes. Triage mode is fairly risky to use in current war doctrines. The Triage will not make a difference to a Doomsday.

Now lets look at the most obsolete class called Dreadnoughts. Dreads are a class that have been mostly untouched since their introduction. While more damage and shorter siege time helps, its generally not worth using in current fleet doctrines.
Dreads only have one real role and that is to shoot structures and immobile Capital Ships. This is a job that can easily be accomplished by Super Capital ships and subcapital ships.

-Dreads are rarely used in pos bashes due to the requirement to be in siege mode for 5 Minutes.

-Dreads are inflexible and less used due to it being an expensive battering ram.

-A Handful of Battleships and Tier 3 Battlecruisers can the same job of a Dreadnought while having the capability to engage subcaps and the ability to disengage at will.

-Dreads are rely on active tanking to survive, active tanking scales horribly in fleet fights. If a fleet catches a Dread in siege, its as good as dead.

-DD makes it trivially easy to one-shot kill a Dread.

TL:DR - Carriers and Dreads are mostly obsolete due to their inflexibility of roles that can be accomplished by other ships at lower cost and/or much less risk.
Damikin
Nehe Umbrella
#2 - 2012-04-02 02:24:27 UTC
RnK seems to be using triage archons pretty well.
Parsee789
Immaterial and Missing Power
#3 - 2012-04-02 04:11:58 UTC
Damikin wrote:
RnK seems to be using triage archons pretty well.


Imagine if their enemy had brought in titans rather than supercarriers. Would the result have been the same?
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#4 - 2012-04-02 09:01:42 UTC
Even if this were true (I see far more use of Carriers and Dreads than supers) what does it matter?

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Giselay
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#5 - 2012-04-02 11:10:57 UTC
Seems you haven't participated in recent big battles?

#1: Raiden uses carriers as Logistics. What you forget is that 4 "Scimitars" need 4 people - which is a scarce resource
#2: Most POS'es reinforced are either through Supers or Dreads. A "mini moros" fleet can reinforce a POS in one siege cycle.

Just because they don't appear on killboards doesn't mean we is them.
Tyran Scorpi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-04-02 18:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyran Scorpi
Soon Shin wrote:

-Dreads are rarely used in pos bashes due to the requirement to be in siege mode for 5 Minutes.


Yeah, dreads excel at pos bashing, I see them used all the time. They are far better at it than any fleet of subcaps, because you would need more than 100 T3 battlecruisers to match the damage output of 10 dreads.

I will point out however, that if the doomsday got redesigned, it may fix a lot of the problems that you have just brought up.
Rimase
#7 - 2012-04-02 22:06:54 UTC
Ship balance due this year.

Looking to join Caldari Faction Warfare corporation!
Zircon Dasher
#8 - 2012-04-03 00:15:06 UTC
According to Diagoras

Carriers being flown: Thanatos 3243, Archon 1716, Chimera 1566, Nidhoggur 838.
Supercarriers being flown: Nyx 1579, Aeon 640, Wyvern 296, Hel 117, Revenant 1. Yep, just the one.
active characters in a titan: Erebus 300, Avatar 257, Leviathan 98, Ragnarok 86.

Numbers from March 15/16

Did not see one for dreads. Did not really look too hard either.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-04-03 05:27:19 UTC
ccp was talking about a module that would jam targets if lots locked onto you or something, this could potentially fix dreads and carriers, because there would be no "primary" getting hit by 90% of the enemy fleet.
Giselay
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#10 - 2012-04-03 17:29:18 UTC
Zircon, the numbers he posted weren't "flown", it was "sit in". In other words if you sit in your Rifter and your Dread is in your hangar it won't count.

And most Dreads are secondary ships you don't hang out in,
Zircon Dasher
#11 - 2012-04-03 18:34:55 UTC
Giselay wrote:
Zircon, the numbers he posted weren't "flown", it was "sit in". In other words if you sit in your Rifter and your Dread is in your hangar it won't count.

And most Dreads are secondary ships you don't hang out in,


Copy Pasta so....

If you have an issue with the way he words things perhaps you should take it up with him.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#12 - 2012-04-03 21:41:23 UTC
so the pair of dreads we used in This fight with SNUFF the other week or the blap dread we used in this fight vs Unwilling 3 days ago are obsolete?.

Oh hey look Ma, its another moron who has no ******* clue what hes talking about. That squidgy grey thing between your ears is supposed to do more than stop the wind blowing through your head you know.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-04-03 21:49:08 UTC
The problem with dreads is, if you put a fleet of them out on a structure shoot, 50 titans will get dropped on them. However they get used, a fleets of 200+ are being used to burn tenal. The price has also rocketed.
Dark Devastation
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-04-04 04:49:48 UTC
well from what i see is dreds are rocking atm. some of my most fun fights have been dred on dred fights they rock there like dig ships of the wall lol
http://horn.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12491854 example

i think carriers could do with a little work
mostly the nid needs more cap recharge or somthing
but im a happy moros pilot
dark
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#15 - 2012-04-04 05:31:11 UTC
Quote:
The dreadnought was the predominant type of 20th-century battleship. The first of the kind, the Royal Navy's Dreadnought, had such an impact when launched in 1906 that similar battleships built after her were referred to as "dreadnoughts", and earlier battleships became known as pre-dreadnoughts. Her design had two revolutionary features: an "all-big-gun" armament scheme and steam turbine propulsion. The arrival of the dreadnoughts renewed the naval arms race, principally between the United Kingdom and Germany but reflected worldwide, as the new class of warships became a crucial symbol of national power.

While dreadnought-building consumed vast resources in the early 20th century, there was only one battle between large dreadnought fleets. At the Battle of Jutland, the British and German navies clashed with no decisive result. The term "dreadnought" gradually dropped from use after World War I, especially after the Washington Naval Treaty, as all remaining battleships shared dreadnought characteristics; it can also be used to describe battlecruisers, the other type of ship resulting from the dreadnought revolution" - Wikipedia


According to Wiki, Dreadnaughts were awesome anti-Battleship class ships by design.

Our dreads hardly even touch Battleships because of their design and implementation issues (being focused around POS bashes with the current hulls)

Give us new anti-sub cap role focused Dread hulls that will make BS pilots cry with nerd rage.

Give us new carrier hulls with the same sort of focus and less Logistical roles and bonuses. Moar fighters, more fighter variety, more deadly awesome win.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!