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New dev blog: Team Security - Now with 100% more Anti-RMT

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Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#161 - 2012-04-03 20:34:00 UTC
Simply awesome Sreegs.

.
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2012-04-03 20:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Padme Amidala Naberrie
Lacco wrote:
This kind of activity where CCP blindfold hunts for RMT will lead to a disaster and many of those who are innocent will get banned. As a result I'm concidering closing all my accounts and start looking for another game if this problem remains unsolved for longer period of time.


Can I have your stuff?

PAN
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#163 - 2012-04-03 20:34:41 UTC
RE: "While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans"." -team security - now with 100% more anti-rmt dev blog.

i heard early on that people who did reimbursements for alliances ( ie: u lose a ship in pvp, post the kill mail and the alliance pays you for that ship) recieved punishement as well. can you confirm this? if so that would be a huge problem. its not our job to figure out who trades illegallly; its urs ccp
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#164 - 2012-04-03 20:36:13 UTC
KICK MOAR ASS, PLEASE!!!!

Go go gadget bot killer!

Bokononist

 
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#165 - 2012-04-03 20:37:41 UTC
Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:
RE: "While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans"." -team security - now with 100% more anti-rmt dev blog.

i heard early on that people who did reimbursements for alliances ( ie: u lose a ship in pvp, post the kill mail and the alliance pays you for that ship) recieved punishement as well. can you confirm this? if so that would be a huge problem. its not our job to figure out who trades illegallly; its urs ccp


I won't comment on individual cases except to point to my earlier statement and attest to its accuracy.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#166 - 2012-04-03 20:38:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Merin Ryskin
CCP Sreegs wrote:
1) Right now we haven't had to go any farther than the consumer ie the guy who made the purchase. If things change we will as well.


Under what circumstances would you consider going beyond that level?

Quote:
2) If I was going to loan someone money I'd make sure I knew who they were etc. In the cases this has popped up the person in question was a well known RMTer. There's no magic formula for this.


My point is how do you know that someone is a RMTer? I'm assuming this wasn't a character named CheapIskFast1234, so how are you supposed to know that they're RMTing? Please keep in mind that accusations of RMTing and/or botting are incredibly popular, and your refusal to discuss the details of RMT/botting-related bans publicly ensures that we have no way of knowing which accusations are legitimate and which are just the usual forum trolling.

Quote:
3) In RMT nobody is innocent. In your scenario I can't figure out what player B actually lost? They spent nothing and therefore are no worse off than they were before?


How about time? For example, spending months/years contributing to the alliance, giving ISK, etc, with the expectation that once you reach a certain level in the alliance you get a supercapital. You put in that hard work, you are given the ship that you (as far as you're concerned) have legitimately earned. Except wait, turns out someone in the alliance was RMTing and now your ship has been deleted.

What do you have to say to that person? Too bad, we have to punish the guilty even if it means people who weren't involved have to suffer? Have fun in WoW now that you quit the game? You can claim "we don't allow cheating" all you want, but that isn't going to change the perception of that player that they have been unjustly punished.

Quote:
We'll deal with this on a case by case basis but ultimately if there's an alliance run by RMT then I will end that alliance. It's unfortunate that some people may be negatively impacted by that but their leaders were cheating and we're not going to allow people to cheat.


So how do you compensate the people who didn't RMT but got punished anyway? You "end" an alliance because of what some of the leaders did, reverse their station ownership, etc. Now suddenly I log back on and find all of my (legitimately earned RMT-free) stuff trapped in a hostile station where I don't have docking rights.

Are you going to have a GM move my stuff out to a safe station, or are you going to just tell me to shut up and deal with the consequences of someone else cheating?

Quote:
I'll also note that your question is hypothetical and I can't truly answer that until I've seen that scenario.


This is not true at all.

If you're going to interfere in a high-stakes game like alliance warfare, you MUST have procedures in place to handle the fallout. It is unacceptable to just declare "we'll deal with it when it happens', and the rules should be public so that everyone knows that these cases will be handled fairly and consistently.
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#167 - 2012-04-03 20:39:01 UTC
The thinly-veiled tears here are delicious.

Bots for the bot throne.
ISK for the ISK throne.

Fix POSes.  Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one).
Moon Kitten
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2012-04-03 20:39:52 UTC
Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:
RE: "While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans"." -team security - now with 100% more anti-rmt dev blog.

i heard early on that people who did reimbursements for alliances ( ie: u lose a ship in pvp, post the kill mail and the alliance pays you for that ship) recieved punishement as well. can you confirm this? if so that would be a huge problem. its not our job to figure out who trades illegallly; its urs ccp


If that did happen then Sreegs will take that into account, work out what it was about those specific users that triggered a false positive and fix it and move on. Do you really think they should do nothing, ever, unless they can be 100% sure (which is impossible) that no false positives occur? Don't be childish, it's not like they'd leave those people banned after verifying they were doing reimbursements.
Lacco
Gas Factory
#169 - 2012-04-03 20:40:50 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Lacco wrote:
Quote:
While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans". This is completely unacceptable behavior and in each instance thus far the purchased accounts were left closed and the loaned isk remained frozen.



I'm sad to see CCP makes claim of this sort. Just roughly three weeks ago GM's banned characters amarri4 and Norlana (who are both friends of mine) who received a plex free of charge at Jita. Supposedly these characters were tagged as result and were immidiately banned after the incident.

How ever, what happened next was that amarri4's petitions were answered and he was unbanned. Norlana remains banned, and his petitions remain unanswered, nor does he have received email to clarify what is the current status of his account.

This kind of activity where CCP blindfold hunts for RMT will lead to a disaster and many of those who are innocent will get banned. As a result I'm concidering closing all my accounts and start looking for another game if this problem remains unsolved for longer period of time.


I'm not a GM and can't speak for what they do. You should take this up with them as it has nothing to do with this thread or the work of my team. What I said stands and is 100% accurate.


The chain of petitions have been cooking for three weeks now and there is no progress. The quality of customer support from CCP is abysmal.

What I think this kind of public image you give out of banning your customers is going to cost CCP valuable long term customers. Our whole community is upset for this bullshit.
Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#170 - 2012-04-03 20:41:10 UTC
CCP Sreegs for President of Eve for LIFE!

Also why does Sreegs not have a signature? Most CCP people have one.

Stuff Goes here
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#171 - 2012-04-03 20:41:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Z2ZzzzZ2Z
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:
RE: "While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans"." -team security - now with 100% more anti-rmt dev blog.

i heard early on that people who did reimbursements for alliances ( ie: u lose a ship in pvp, post the kill mail and the alliance pays you for that ship) recieved punishement as well. can you confirm this? if so that would be a huge problem. its not our job to figure out who trades illegallly; its urs ccp


I won't comment on individual cases except to point to my earlier statement and attest to its accuracy.


i didn't ask for an individual cases...dev blog said "loan money" ...if some1 is doing reimbursements out of corp wallet to an effected account would that cause issues?
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2012-04-03 20:42:58 UTC
Lacco wrote:


What I think this kind of public image you give out of banning your customers is going to cost CCP valuable long term customers. Our whole community is upset for this bullshit.


Really? Want to read this thread and see how few people are whinging like you compared to people like myself who are happy that something is finally being done about the serial cheaters who spoil this game?

PAN
MissGemini
Lightshift Corp
#173 - 2012-04-03 20:44:24 UTC
@CCP Screegs - I have info I would like to convey in an anon fashion, how should I do this?
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#174 - 2012-04-03 20:45:02 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
TOO MUCH TEXT TO QUOTE


1) I'm not dealing in hypotheticals. I'm also not hamstringing myself. So no comment.
2) I've already explained this. In most cases thus far people knew. I already told you to vet the people you lend isk to. The last time I checked making loans wasn't something we insure. If you lose your loan you can't tell a GM to give it back. Your other risk is that they're crooked. I don't see why this is an issue to be frank with you.
3) Not doing hypotheticals.

You may disagree but that doesn't change the fact that I'm not going to deal in hypotheticals. That's my answer and the only one I'm going to give. None of these scenarios have happened and to be honest I don't find it a very productive use of my time to guess what could happen if maybe something might occur at some perhaps somewhat random chance based on some hidden algorithm whenever.

We will deal with situations as they arise and each one will be unique. That's the nature of this business.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#175 - 2012-04-03 20:45:24 UTC
MissGemini wrote:
@CCP Screegs - I have info I would like to convey in an anon fashion, how should I do this?


security@ccpgames.com I'm the only one who sees it

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2012-04-03 20:45:37 UTC
MissGemini wrote:
@CCP Screegs - I have info I would like to convey in an anon fashion, how should I do this?


Not post in a thread that the whole of EVE can read with the name of your main asking how you can do this?

Blink

PAN
Lacco
Gas Factory
#177 - 2012-04-03 20:45:42 UTC
Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:
Lacco wrote:


What I think this kind of public image you give out of banning your customers is going to cost CCP valuable long term customers. Our whole community is upset for this bullshit.


Really? Want to read this thread and see how few people are whinging like you compared to people like myself who are happy that something is finally being done about the serial cheaters who spoil this game?

PAN



I'm talking about the community whose member has been banned for receiving a plex in Jita. I'm all up for fighting against RMT botters etc. but the fact that there are mistakes done by people who bann the **** out of players is concidered to be inexistent.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#178 - 2012-04-03 20:46:52 UTC
Lacco wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Lacco wrote:
Quote:
While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans". This is completely unacceptable behavior and in each instance thus far the purchased accounts were left closed and the loaned isk remained frozen.



I'm sad to see CCP makes claim of this sort. Just roughly three weeks ago GM's banned characters amarri4 and Norlana (who are both friends of mine) who received a plex free of charge at Jita. Supposedly these characters were tagged as result and were immidiately banned after the incident.

How ever, what happened next was that amarri4's petitions were answered and he was unbanned. Norlana remains banned, and his petitions remain unanswered, nor does he have received email to clarify what is the current status of his account.

This kind of activity where CCP blindfold hunts for RMT will lead to a disaster and many of those who are innocent will get banned. As a result I'm concidering closing all my accounts and start looking for another game if this problem remains unsolved for longer period of time.


I'm not a GM and can't speak for what they do. You should take this up with them as it has nothing to do with this thread or the work of my team. What I said stands and is 100% accurate.


The chain of petitions have been cooking for three weeks now and there is no progress. The quality of customer support from CCP is abysmal.

What I think this kind of public image you give out of banning your customers is going to cost CCP valuable long term customers. Our whole community is upset for this bullshit.


I understand that and I'm informing you that this isn't the customer service thread. Take it up with them please. Neither I nor anyone else can do a single thing for you in this thread.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#179 - 2012-04-03 20:48:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
I am concerned about the "enabling RMT sellers via providing them with 'loans' thing.

I make hundreds of millions a month and more by loaning to people, how do I know they are not RMTers?

Those who are not stupid are not going to show as one.


One year ago I held collateral for a guy who in turn had stuff given by a RMTer. This has caused me incredibly absurd issues for weeks to no end and all what CCP did to me when I petitioned, was a grand STFU - our logs show nothing.


Are we going to see people like Chribba (he does my same "EvE job") being banned and purple letter flagged because they unknowingly dealt with somebody related to RMT?




Second thing, who is going to be so stupid to mine (and ice mining more so) even now that it's supposed to become profitable?

It's a dull mechanic that is completely identical to botting even when done legitimately.
It'll be just too risky, there's no way to detect a bot vs a real miner sitting for 18 minutes doing nothing, then unloading, warping back to the same bookmark and mining again.

Or there might be ways to discern them but CCP does not know them, as I have seen banned people who I chatted all the time with while they were mining, while in the same system and sitting next to each other.

As I posted many times, it's very cool you finally started hitting botters, RMTers and cheaters but there ARE false positives (which you dismissed) and they have no way whatsoever to prove they were not cheating.


Edit: and no the "we are not the customer service department" is not a valid excuse.
You HAVE to have functional backend to sustain your bannings else we'll just get an even worse customer service than we have now, where petitions can sit there for weeks.

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Kimiko Tojima
Daughters of Hada
#180 - 2012-04-03 20:48:33 UTC
Burn 'em all !!

+12 for an exquisite bot vs bot