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New dev blog: Team Security - Now with 100% more Anti-RMT

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Georgiy Giggle
Senclave
Apocalypse Now.
#81 - 2012-04-03 18:46:18 UTC
AMAZING. Ban all bastards. And take their ISK.
+1

Not mastering proprieties, won't become firmly established. - Confucius
Arec Bardwin
#82 - 2012-04-03 18:49:49 UTC
Sreegs, I love you, and I want to have your babies.
Ximena Navah
Vox Shadows
#83 - 2012-04-03 18:51:11 UTC
Wicked stuff CCP, it's about time this got introduced.

I heard PL got hit bad Twisted
Allataria
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-04-03 18:51:31 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Allataria wrote:
CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner.


By this measuring stick every single MMO ever has been boring. I hear the argument and I'd love to see some data which proves that altering gameplay to meet whatever standard the rather nebulous term "fun" applies to in any way mitigates RMT.



This was an argument to reduce botting not RMT. Your statement seems that you still don't understand the reasoning most people use to support why they not. All I see is we aren't willing to look at new ways to improve our game and help our players we just want a quick solution regardless of the implications that it creates. When I mean fun I mean anything other then warp to belt kill these rats. Warp to next belt. Rinse repeat. Missed are far enjoyable then ratting or running anomalies. Null sec and all space needs more and engaging ways to make isk. Sitting in a belt with a miner or ratting ship for six hours a day is not fun way to make island compared to missions in high sec.

Your statement is highly disturbing for those of us who want the game to improve itself and that CCP is listening to the entire playerbase not just a minority. More research could have been done in understanding why people bot and ask those who do why they do it so the game can be improve d for the better and enjoyment for all instead of you will be banned and we don't care about trying to improve the game.

It will be interesting to see how the market will react to all these accounts being banned when so much of the.economy depends on their output. My guess is negatively. Might be a good time to start buying minerals
Justin Cody
War Firm
#85 - 2012-04-03 18:52:17 UTC
Ruthless Erection wrote:
InVictus Kell wrote:
From the dev post:

" Buy PLEX, don't be a space butt "






nice, reads like a good 'ol fashion political slogan or old war bond ad from WWII.


Typical CCP.


I hope CCP realizes that by banning the bots, their going to massively alter the in-game market. From what information they've released, about 75% of the current items on the market is bot produced, what happens when that 75% turns to 0?

We've seen what happens when plex's get flooded on the market, and when they become scarce. Anyone remember the days when plex's were 300m or less?


CCP's already fubar'd. My account was banned for "RMTing", I sold a motherf***ing character, using the forums, and they said I sold it for real life cash. That's 50mill SP toon I'm not getting back, nor the 8billion it was sold for.

I hope this current "War on Bots" turns around and bites them in the ass. It'll be a well-deserved kick in the butt for the failure of not looking more than 2 ft in front of them.


Also, you pansy CCP guys, perma ban Mittani, make an example. Quit bending over backwards for your players. Enough is Enough.


Well this means you now have a very profitable industrial sector to train for and enter. Or you can play the market. Take your pick. Really as much as the coming price-rise sucks, now is the time to get into industry and make some real profits. Go ahead try it.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#86 - 2012-04-03 18:54:49 UTC
Allataria wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Allataria wrote:
CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner.


By this measuring stick every single MMO ever has been boring. I hear the argument and I'd love to see some data which proves that altering gameplay to meet whatever standard the rather nebulous term "fun" applies to in any way mitigates RMT.



This was an argument to reduce botting not RMT. Your statement seems that you still don't understand the reasoning most people use to support why they not. All I see is we aren't willing to look at new ways to improve our game and help our players we just want a quick solution regardless of the implications that it creates. When I mean fun I mean anything other then warp to belt kill these rats. Warp to next belt. Rinse repeat. Missed are far enjoyable then ratting or running anomalies. Null sec and all space needs more and engaging ways to make isk. Sitting in a belt with a miner or ratting ship for six hours a day is not fun way to make island compared to missions in high sec.

Your statement is highly disturbing for those of us who want the game to improve itself and that CCP is listening to the entire playerbase not just a minority. More research could have been done in understanding why people bot and ask those who do why they do it so the game can be improve d for the better and enjoyment for all instead of you will be banned and we don't care about trying to improve the game.

It will be interesting to see how the market will react to all these accounts being banned when so much of the.economy depends on their output. My guess is negatively. Might be a good time to start buying minerals


I'm not in game design. This is the catching badguys department. This refrain has been mentioned time and time again and it's game designs problem. I don't really care why people break very easy to follow rules I just make sure they don't keep doing it. Hopefully that clarifies my response a bit.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Dingurxul
SecTor 8E
#87 - 2012-04-03 18:56:21 UTC
Allataria wrote:
CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner.


That is like saying I don't want to work in RL to pay for the things I need/want. We as a society give value to money because it is the direct result of producing or doing something that people value. To remove value from ISK (making it easy to get and thus meaningless) removes all value to things related to it. If the ship that you pewpew and destroy takes no effort to replace, your killing of that ship is meaningless because it has no real value. This in turn removes any value to PVP combat, the thing in which I’m sure you want to be able to do more of by “making ISK easier” to get.
Larofeticus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2012-04-03 18:57:47 UTC
As a computer scientist, the idea of a graph and networking problem like this makes my pants tight.

Mmmmm... characters are nodes... digraph with isk transfer amounts as weights, offset by transfered item values...

then you start digging out the patterns. collapse the node paths involving trial accounts... check for sinks, faucets and super connectors... screen out patterns for white listed activity like supercap sales or alliance/corp reimbursments

man it's just such a cool problem from a technical perspective.

It's just so easy to make trial accounts to shuffle things around though. In the short term you want to nail as many vault nodes as possible, but in the long term you have to get the faucet characters because those require the most invested time to set up.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#89 - 2012-04-03 18:59:06 UTC
I have a few questions:

1) I'd like to see an answer to the earlier question about how far down the chain this goes. Ex: A buys ISK and buys a ship from B, does B get punished/ship transaction reversed/etc?

2) How do you determine "known RMTers"? For example, your comment about making loans to "known RMTers". How do you decide whether a person doing business with the RMTer was aware of their illegal activity or just a legitimate player? Am I at risk of getting banned because I give a loan to someone I thought was a legitimate business opportunity, and it turns out they're a RMTer?

3) How exactly are you planning to deal with the effects of things like removing supercapitals on innocent players? For example, A buys a titan with cash, contributes it to the alliance, and player B actually flies it. Does B lose their titan? If A has a freighter full of assets owned by his corp-mates when he is banned, can those players get their assets back? Are you going to delete RMTed sov-claiming structures, and, if so, how are you going to deal with the fact that a lot of innocent players have just experienced a massive effect on their game?
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#90 - 2012-04-03 19:00:01 UTC
Larofeticus wrote:
As a computer scientist, the idea of a graph and networking problem like this makes my pants tight.

Mmmmm... characters are nodes... digraph with isk transfer amounts as weights, offset by transfered item values...

then you start digging out the patterns. collapse the node paths involving trial accounts... check for sinks, faucets and super connectors... screen out patterns for white listed activity like supercap sales or alliance/corp reimbursments

man it's just such a cool problem from a technical perspective.

It's just so easy to make trial accounts to shuffle things around though. In the short term you want to nail as many vault nodes as possible, but in the long term you have to get the faucet characters because those require the most invested time to set up.


We have and will continue to discuss changes to trials but our approach has always been to try and design a game that is engaging for people rather than one that's hard for botters if that makes sense.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
adopt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2012-04-03 19:02:54 UTC
But if CCP purges all bots, how will I pad my KB stats!?!
Cass Lie
State War Academy
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-04-03 19:03:00 UTC
/bows to Sreegs
Excellent stuff. Keep it going.
Allataria
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#93 - 2012-04-03 19:05:23 UTC
Dingurxul wrote:
Allataria wrote:
CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner.


That is like saying I don't want to work in RL to pay for the things I need/want. We as a society give value to money because it is the direct result of producing or doing something that people value. To remove value from ISK (making it easy to get and thus meaningless) removes all value to things related to it. If the ship that you pewpew and destroy takes no effort to replace, your killing of that ship is meaningless because it has no real value. This in turn removes any value to PVP combat, the thing in which I’m sure you want to be able to do more of by “making ISK easier” to get.



All I see here is I'm a pubbie who likes to mission customer the how I play. Try ratting in null sec for 6 hours a day and tell me its more fun and productive then missions. Oh that's right its not. CCP is failing to look at reasons and causes to hitting and is lazy going for the easy fix. Long time players have tried in vain to express the shortcomings of the game but it has fallen on deaf ears time and time again. Maybe when these bots get banned and loads of long timers stop subbing and the in game market falls apart and CCP starts to.lose.money they will see the larger picture.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#94 - 2012-04-03 19:06:31 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
I have a few questions:

1) I'd like to see an answer to the earlier question about how far down the chain this goes. Ex: A buys ISK and buys a ship from B, does B get punished/ship transaction reversed/etc?

2) How do you determine "known RMTers"? For example, your comment about making loans to "known RMTers". How do you decide whether a person doing business with the RMTer was aware of their illegal activity or just a legitimate player? Am I at risk of getting banned because I give a loan to someone I thought was a legitimate business opportunity, and it turns out they're a RMTer?

3) How exactly are you planning to deal with the effects of things like removing supercapitals on innocent players? For example, A buys a titan with cash, contributes it to the alliance, and player B actually flies it. Does B lose their titan? If A has a freighter full of assets owned by his corp-mates when he is banned, can those players get their assets back? Are you going to delete RMTed sov-claiming structures, and, if so, how are you going to deal with the fact that a lot of innocent players have just experienced a massive effect on their game?


1) Right now we haven't had to go any farther than the consumer ie the guy who made the purchase. If things change we will as well.

2) If I was going to loan someone money I'd make sure I knew who they were etc. In the cases this has popped up the person in question was a well known RMTer. There's no magic formula for this.

3) In RMT nobody is innocent. In your scenario I can't figure out what player B actually lost? They spent nothing and therefore are no worse off than they were before? We'll deal with this on a case by case basis but ultimately if there's an alliance run by RMT then I will end that alliance. It's unfortunate that some people may be negatively impacted by that but their leaders were cheating and we're not going to allow people to cheat. I'll also note that your question is hypothetical and I can't truly answer that until I've seen that scenario.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#95 - 2012-04-03 19:07:02 UTC
adopt wrote:
But if CCP purges all bots, how will I pad my KB stats!?!


by sitting on gates in lowsec systems near the newbie starter areas waiting for said newbies to come "explore" lowsec? :)
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#96 - 2012-04-03 19:08:36 UTC
Allataria wrote:
Dingurxul wrote:
Allataria wrote:
CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner.


That is like saying I don't want to work in RL to pay for the things I need/want. We as a society give value to money because it is the direct result of producing or doing something that people value. To remove value from ISK (making it easy to get and thus meaningless) removes all value to things related to it. If the ship that you pewpew and destroy takes no effort to replace, your killing of that ship is meaningless because it has no real value. This in turn removes any value to PVP combat, the thing in which I’m sure you want to be able to do more of by “making ISK easier” to get.



All I see here is I'm a pubbie who likes to mission customer the how I play. Try ratting in null sec for 6 hours a day and tell me its more fun and productive then missions. Oh that's right its not. CCP is failing to look at reasons and causes to hitting and is lazy going for the easy fix. Long time players have tried in vain to express the shortcomings of the game but it has fallen on deaf ears time and time again. Maybe when these bots get banned and loads of long timers stop subbing and the in game market falls apart and CCP starts to.lose.money they will see the larger picture.


Now you're either speculating or ignoring what I said. I said game design deals with those issues and we've discussed this in the past. This isn't a fresh or new idea anywhere. I'm sorry if you feel there's a legitimate reason for botting but there isn't and that's basically that. Not liking a game doesn't entitle you to cheat. Ever. At all. Enough with the moral equivalency please.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#97 - 2012-04-03 19:09:42 UTC
Please continue to stomp a mudhole in these bastards. More slamming dicks in doors!

Rote Kapelle - NOW IN SLIGHTLY MORE LAW ABIDING FLAVOR!

"DRINK STARSI!" ©®™Ownership Group Chairman
Aineko Macx
#98 - 2012-04-03 19:10:01 UTC
Excellent, Sreegs.

Can't wait to see how the super cap purge goes Twisted

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Ren Oren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2012-04-03 19:11:53 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Sreegs: Can you address the concern - nay, the undeniable fact - that reporting your foes in-game, whether or not they're actually engaging in any sort of RMT, is going to become a regular tactic nowadays, all the moreso that you're offering an incentive for doing so? Will there be punitive action taken against players who spam lots of reports, especially if investigation into those reports keeps coming up negative?

My concern here is that you're going to create a whole lot of unnecessary workload for yourself investigating all kinds of false reports, which could serve to reduce your effectiveness at dealing with actual RMTers.



hmm someone can feel the ban hammer coming LOL LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE IT
Zircon Dasher
#100 - 2012-04-03 19:12:18 UTC
<3

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.