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Patch change for GCC / Warp Prevention GM Clarification needed, Major Lowsec impact.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#61 - 2012-04-03 17:10:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Nebula Terron wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nebula Terron wrote:

People are talking about those high sec spots in low sec. You are -10 and fly through a few low sec systems 0.3->0.2->0.4-0.5(high sec spot->0.4->0.3.

Old system: You can jump into the 0.5 and with a fast ship, warp past Concord and jump back into the 0.4 low sec system
New system: you jump from low sec to high sec, you are Toast.

That's at least how I undestrood it.


Yeah but being unambiguous does not mean it's smart.

Imo CONCORD should punish aggressors "on site", i.e. if I attack (and eventually kill) somebody in 0.4 CONCORD shoots at my ship in there, because that's the punishment for killing in 0.4.

If I move to hi sec not doing any crime in there why should CONCORD send ships?


First let me point out that I am not a supporter of the new system.

As it is now you have GCC you get attacked by Concord. What I want to know is, what if I am a -10 Pirate, and jump into high sec without GCC but my Criminal Timer that I earn simply for beeing a pirate.

With the old system you have been attacked by faction Navy, if you have not commited any crime in that high sec system other then entering it.

I want to know if still faction Navy comes after you if you jump into high sec as a -10 pirate without commiting any crimes recently, or if Concord now is responding to your entering of the system.



As far as I can ascertain this only affects those under an active GCC. I haven't seen anything that outlines changes in how -10 characters are handled.

Edit: At least not so far.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#62 - 2012-04-03 17:11:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Morph Eis wrote:
In case its hard to work out. If you have GCC stay out of high sec.


This is formally correct but the implications are very heavy.

Imagine a FC of a small roam chases people to kill in a low sec pocket. Then the 10 guys don't exactly like to sit there forever and want to quickly return in the other low sec system they came from and move to some more active place. Now they won't be able to.

Imagine defending your own POS in low sec pocket (many have them there) vs mercs (actually happened to me) and then you defeat them and want to chase their remains out. Now you can't as you get toasted. Nor they can't flee themselves, they'll die anyway.

To my humble self, this looks... dumb.

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Alex Tremayne
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
#63 - 2012-04-03 17:13:07 UTC
Othran wrote:

I was in Space Invaders (me, not Othran) and I know EXACTLY how the "evading concorde is an exploit came about".

You don't so hush child.


Having been in Space Invaders doesn't actually make you the oracle of all things CONCORD and GCC. I've been around long enough that I'm also quite familiar with what caused that ruling initially.

It doesn't change the fact that the ruling was that evading CONCORD became an exploit. Full stop.
Morph Eis
Doomheim
#64 - 2012-04-03 17:14:55 UTC
Screw it im leaving this thread. I feel dumber for just reading it. ITT: people complaining about new GCC who never understood the old one to begin with.

Also jumping through to high sec with GCC and escaping in fast ships is a lie. You never could do that. That's the navy.
Nebula Terron
Wolf's in Sheep's Clothing
#65 - 2012-04-03 17:18:35 UTC
Morph Eis wrote:
Screw it im leaving this thread. I feel dumber for just reading it. ITT: people complaining about new GCC who never understood the old one to begin with.

Also jumping through to high sec with GCC and escaping in fast ships is a lie. You never could do that. That's the navy.



I meant to write Navy and ended up writing concord 2 times, forgive me it's late for me.

Eve Online Forums: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.

Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#66 - 2012-04-03 17:19:06 UTC
Adian Grey wrote:
gfldex wrote:
If you got a GCC and jump into highsec you got CONCORD after you and can't dock nor jump via stargate or WH right now. You are not allowed to escape CONCORD either. So what exactly do you expect to change with the next patch?


You can have a GCC and burn through 0.5 systems and back into another lowsec system without Concord getting you. They follow the same rules as the spawn timers for acts committed in Highsec, but the GCC itself was not obtained in highsec. This patch is specific to people in highsec getting a GCC that will likely have unintended consequences.

If said GCC flagged person engages in criminal activity while in highsec, then thats fine. The GCC gets refreshed, they get scramed or whatever, and the Concord Death Ray blows them up.

And what about people that jump into Highsec, get their GCC, get blown up per Concord, go back into where ever they came form and re enter the system? Do they get Concorded again? They were already blown up for the first act they committed.

My other major concern is if you jump into Highsec with a neg sec status you get a criminal flag to the local police. You lose the ability to cloak and a few other draw backs, but you can still warp through. CCP being what it is, I fully expect them to get this wrong and have -5 and lower people scarmmed for simply passing through.

Again this has an impact on people that are career criminals, know the consequences, and willingly accept the punishment. CCP's change of this mechanic to any GCC no matter what has a direct impact on those that follow the rules and play in the sandbox.

HTFU. I believe that is how it goes.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac
Othran
Route One
#67 - 2012-04-03 17:20:33 UTC
Alex Tremayne wrote:
I've been around long enough that I'm also quite familiar with what caused that ruling initially.


Then in that case you must know why it was limited to high-sec.

Either that or you are trolling.

I know for a fact Jade knows why it was limited to high-sec, maybe go ask him mmmm?
Lord Helghast
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2012-04-03 17:25:56 UTC
RULES OF EVE

GCC = Concord will shoot you

Concord Patrols HighSec

you get GCC for killing in high or lowsec

Evading Concord is Illegal


With this logic it says that if you kill in lowsec and get GCC and go to highsec you will be killed end of story, its just the way its supposed to be avoiding concord = nono
Othran
Route One
#69 - 2012-04-03 17:26:12 UTC
Schalac wrote:
HTFU. I believe that is how it goes.


The thing is that is indeed how it goes.

It won't make customer retention any easier though. The only people who stick around for more than 6 months in Eve are those who like the danger aspect of Eve.

Frankly if you don't do PvP in Eve (even as part of the blob) OR you don't do RMT then what on earth would make you stay in Eve long-term? PVE? Don't make me laugh. Customer service? Ahahahahaha.

Bit too many carebear patches happening for upcoming expansions CCP are spinning as "war expansions".

YMMV of course.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#70 - 2012-04-03 17:28:10 UTC
Nebula Terron wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nebula Terron wrote:

People are talking about those high sec spots in low sec. You are -10 and fly through a few low sec systems 0.3->0.2->0.4-0.5(high sec spot->0.4->0.3.

Old system: You can jump into the 0.5 and with a fast ship, warp past Concord and jump back into the 0.4 low sec system
New system: you jump from low sec to high sec, you are Toast.

That's at least how I undestrood it.


Yeah but being unambiguous does not mean it's smart.

Imo CONCORD should punish aggressors "on site", i.e. if I attack (and eventually kill) somebody in 0.4 CONCORD shoots at my ship in there, because that's the punishment for killing in 0.4.

If I move to hi sec not doing any crime in there why should CONCORD send ships?


First let me point out that I am not a supporter of the new system.

As it is now you have GCC you get attacked by Concord. What I want to know is, what if I am a -10 Pirate, and jump into high sec without GCC but my Criminal Timer that I earn simply for beeing a pirate.

With the old system you have been attacked by faction Navy, if you have not commited any crime in that high sec system other then entering it.

I want to know if still faction Navy comes after you if you jump into high sec as a -10 pirate without commiting any crimes recently, or if Concord now is responding to your entering of the system.



This doesn't change at all. The outlaw flag does not bestow a GCC and we are only touching upon how a GCC works.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#71 - 2012-04-03 17:29:21 UTC
Morph Eis wrote:
In case its hard to work out. If you have GCC stay out of high sec.


^^ This. GCC in High Sec = dead, no matter how you got that GCC.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Othran
Route One
#72 - 2012-04-03 17:30:11 UTC
Lord Helghast wrote:
RULES OF EVE

GCC = Concord will shoot you

Concord Patrols HighSec

you get GCC for killing in high or lowsec

Evading Concord is Illegal


With this logic it says that if you kill in lowsec and get GCC and go to highsec you will be killed end of story, its just the way its supposed to be avoiding concord = nono


The bit you are missing is that evading concorde was only an exploit if GCC occurred in high-sec.

Things change of course. Especially when clueless devs create the ultimate high-sec ganking machine (tier 3 BCs). Oh and they got warned. Repeatedly.

Then we end up with ill thought out garbage like we have now.

Knee-jerk policy changes don't work. Never have.
Nebula Terron
Wolf's in Sheep's Clothing
#73 - 2012-04-03 17:30:27 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Nebula Terron wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nebula Terron wrote:

People are talking about those high sec spots in low sec. You are -10 and fly through a few low sec systems 0.3->0.2->0.4-0.5(high sec spot->0.4->0.3.

Old system: You can jump into the 0.5 and with a fast ship, warp past Concord and jump back into the 0.4 low sec system
New system: you jump from low sec to high sec, you are Toast.

That's at least how I undestrood it.


Yeah but being unambiguous does not mean it's smart.

Imo CONCORD should punish aggressors "on site", i.e. if I attack (and eventually kill) somebody in 0.4 CONCORD shoots at my ship in there, because that's the punishment for killing in 0.4.

If I move to hi sec not doing any crime in there why should CONCORD send ships?


First let me point out that I am not a supporter of the new system.

As it is now you have GCC you get attacked by Concord. What I want to know is, what if I am a -10 Pirate, and jump into high sec without GCC but my Criminal Timer that I earn simply for beeing a pirate.

With the old system you have been attacked by faction Navy, if you have not commited any crime in that high sec system other then entering it.

I want to know if still faction Navy comes after you if you jump into high sec as a -10 pirate without commiting any crimes recently, or if Concord now is responding to your entering of the system.



This doesn't change at all. The outlaw flag does not bestow a GCC and we are only touching upon how a GCC works.



Thank you very much, that's all I wanted to hear.

Eve Online Forums: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.

Ravenesa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-04-03 17:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravenesa
How it works currently:

You CAN jump into Highsec with a GCC, you CAN warp around, you CANNOT DOCK and CANNOT ACTIVATE JUMP GATES so long as the GCC is active. You also cannot cloak, this also applies to criminal timer as well as GCC.

If you are JUST CRIMINAL FLAGGED for -5 or lower you can warp, use jump gates, etc. The faction popo will try to engage you and other pilots are free to attack you thanks to your sec status, however Conccord WILL NOT respond unless you shot someone first.

Proposed Change:

GCC = NO WARP in addition to NO DOCKING and NO JUMPGATE ACTIVATION

Criminal Flag = No change.

Impact:

Suicide Gankers will need to wait out their GCC's before returning to Highsec systems.

"Spirt of the Law" argument:

When someone gains a GCC for whatever reason in Highsec they get Concorded. Their ship gets destoryed. Punishment served. Warping away was avoiding Concord and avoiding punishment, this was the exploit. However what happens once you have already been punished by Concord or your GCC was not the result of a Highsec action? Are you still subject to Concord?

Seems the OP got a little backwards with mechanics, but the ability to warp around in a system with a GCC you gained from a lowsec action or from a previous gank where you were destoryed is the heart of the problem and that needs clarification.

I would highly recommend including the "GCC in Highsec = Dead no matter what" explination in the patch notes. Bold It, Make it Obvious, Repeat it several times. "If you have a GCC and are in a ship Concord WILL ATTACK YOU NO MATTER WHAT!!"

There can be no ambiguity on this rule going forward.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#75 - 2012-04-03 17:34:42 UTC
Othran wrote:
Lord Helghast wrote:
RULES OF EVE

GCC = Concord will shoot you

Concord Patrols HighSec

you get GCC for killing in high or lowsec

Evading Concord is Illegal


With this logic it says that if you kill in lowsec and get GCC and go to highsec you will be killed end of story, its just the way its supposed to be avoiding concord = nono


The bit you are missing is that evading concorde was only an exploit if GCC occurred in high-sec.

Things change of course. Especially when clueless devs create the ultimate high-sec ganking machine (tier 3 BCs). Oh and they got warned. Repeatedly.

Then we end up with ill thought out garbage like we have now.

Knee-jerk policy changes don't work. Never have.


Actually, Lord Helghast is correct. See this article: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Global_criminal_countdown

It very clearly states that jumping into High Sec with GCC = death. That article hasn't been touched since January 2010. This really has always been the case (at least for as long as I can remember and I have been playing since early 2006 and I have been a GM for 3 years).

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Morph Eis
Doomheim
#76 - 2012-04-03 17:36:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Morph Eis
GM Homonoia wrote:

This doesn't change at all. The outlaw flag does not bestow a GCC and we are only touching upon how a GCC works.

It does in certain systems such as InterBus sov. Any chance on this ever changing and them getting a navy instead of Concord for entry?

Or at the very least make it easy to pick out which systems will get you insta killed for entry alone.
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#77 - 2012-04-03 17:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: ITTigerClawIK
id very much LOVE to see the eradication of the whole "avoiding concord = imidiate ban/warning" thing since its very much in oposition to the sandbox for those that wish to become "master criminals" or "assasins" who do there job well, its hard enough as it is to avoid them to ALMOST impossable but the fact that there was the possabuility of avoiding gave you a sense that it was still a sandbox game where you COULD literaly do anything, hell CCP encourages to backstab and steal and lie and these other things, and i personaly say well played to the guy who manages to kill me in high sec and get away, cause i would know the guy has the skill to do it and i lost to a dam good pilot.
Ravenesa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-04-03 17:41:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravenesa
GM Homonoia wrote:

Actually, Lord Helghast is correct. See this article: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Global_criminal_countdown

It very clearly states that jumping into High Sec with GCC = death. That article hasn't been touched since January 2010. This really has always been the case (at least for as long as I can remember and I have been playing since early 2006 and I have been a GM for 3 years).


So the problem has been poor enforcement of the rule and we have been openly exploiting it for years. Ahh well, guess we have to wait 15 minutes between suicide cycles. Any chance you could change it so the GCC gets removed when Concord pops you but the Criminal/Agression tags stay? I'm sure we wont expolit that one too much Twisted
Othran
Route One
#79 - 2012-04-03 17:44:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
GM Homonoia wrote:
Othran wrote:
Lord Helghast wrote:
RULES OF EVE

GCC = Concord will shoot you

Concord Patrols HighSec

you get GCC for killing in high or lowsec

Evading Concord is Illegal


With this logic it says that if you kill in lowsec and get GCC and go to highsec you will be killed end of story, its just the way its supposed to be avoiding concord = nono


The bit you are missing is that evading concorde was only an exploit if GCC occurred in high-sec.

Things change of course. Especially when clueless devs create the ultimate high-sec ganking machine (tier 3 BCs). Oh and they got warned. Repeatedly.

Then we end up with ill thought out garbage like we have now.

Knee-jerk policy changes don't work. Never have.


Actually, Lord Helghast is correct. See this article: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Global_criminal_countdown

It very clearly states that jumping into High Sec with GCC = death. That article hasn't been touched since January 2010. This really has always been the case (at least for as long as I can remember and I have been playing since early 2006 and I have been a GM for 3 years).



Fair enough then. I was referring to stuff from well before that date (2004 when it became an exploit).


Best to start linking these myriad rules to the EULA then AND start training staff because I know 3 senior GMs who have said differently from the date you stated.

Consistency.

I'm sure you've heard of it. Would be nice if Eve devs and GMs actually used the same rules.
Morph Eis
Doomheim
#80 - 2012-04-03 17:53:30 UTC
I for one am glad to see suicide ganking getting a nerf. I say this as a suicide ganker. It was too easy and too unbalanced ISK wise. It was fun while it lasted but for the good of the game it has to be slowed down.

I feel this patch has done a decent job addressing this.