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Incursion fixes/feedback thread

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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#521 - 2012-03-25 18:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Recoil Happens wrote:

Some fleet members just don't shoot to keep from drawing aggro and to save isk on ammo which places the burden on fewer pilots, raises the chance of fleet failure, and extends the length of the mission - but they get paid just as much.

Thank you.



I've started randomly assigning drones to pilots in my fleets & if the drones are not doing jack I know they are dead weights. Ususally the reason why they are dead weight: DUAL BOXING ( or once a guy told me his naked wife was distracting him ShockedBlink :)
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Rico Ramos
See Red
#522 - 2012-03-25 19:26:18 UTC
The Idea that "too many" people are participating and making "too much" money, and presumably having too much fun as well, is ridiculous, are you sure we want less people making money and having a good time? Seems like a poor business plan to me. This would cause to have no one doing Incursions at all.
Do not reduce vanguard payouts there fine. (High Sec)
Boost Scout, Assault and Headquarter payouts by 20 %. This would help people want to do them.
Because the real reason no one does them is due to the huge effort and no reward for them. What I mean is I take a fleet to fight, and we win but more than half the fleet gets pop. What do they get? Nothing! No reward for their efforts so no one goes to them. Granted do we want to reward failure? I say no. But what people are saying is “Hey you guys are doing such a great job at completing vanguard sites; now we have nerf you as your reward!” That’s not fair.
And speaking of fairness... Players choose to PvP. (while others get forced to by grievers). The ratio of those who choose to fight Incursions in losec seems a bit well low! They have more to worry about than the empire Incursion folks. So their payout needs to be increased.
MOM (Mothership) timers I knew nothing about since I don’t do them!  No point unless you do something rewarding for peoples failed efforts. Even if you put in effect a battle field scheme, which I like. What I mean is Incursions comes in waves thru the constellation, over the course of a week’s time. So starting at the ends of the constellation, with the first wave being Scout Incursions and working in order till you get to Headquarter Incursions. All the while working to envelope to whole constellation. With the Mothership deploying in a random spot within the constellation to be defeated. This would spread the sites evenly across all of the systems.
I feel would cut down on the amount contested fights and grieving.
As for shutting down the other sites when the mom shows up is whatever. As those players that don’t fight the Mothership will just move to the next site.

Internet Space Ships is Serious Business
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#523 - 2012-03-26 01:10:34 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Recoil Happens wrote:

Some fleet members just don't shoot to keep from drawing aggro and to save isk on ammo which places the burden on fewer pilots, raises the chance of fleet failure, and extends the length of the mission - but they get paid just as much.

Thank you.



I've started randomly assigning drones to pilots in my fleets & if the drones are not doing jack I know they are dead weights. Ususally the reason why they are dead weight: DUAL BOXING ( or once a guy told me his naked wife was distracting him ShockedBlink :)

I have no problem running 4 clients in incursions and keeping them all constantly shooting, you need better multiboxers :D
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#524 - 2012-03-26 06:33:45 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Recoil Happens wrote:

Some fleet members just don't shoot to keep from drawing aggro and to save isk on ammo which places the burden on fewer pilots, raises the chance of fleet failure, and extends the length of the mission - but they get paid just as much.

Thank you.



I've started randomly assigning drones to pilots in my fleets & if the drones are not doing jack I know they are dead weights. Ususally the reason why they are dead weight: DUAL BOXING ( or once a guy told me his naked wife was distracting him ShockedBlink :)

I have no problem running 4 clients in incursions and keeping them all constantly shooting, you need better multiboxers :D


lol guess so.
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
#525 - 2012-03-27 13:39:56 UTC
Theres one variable missing

the incursions are about sansha snatching up people right? why not have a "people count" i.e

say there are 100,000,000,000 citizens in this system, the population grows at x per day. Sansha will come in when population is big enough for him and snatch until he loses too much of his force.. he wont come back until population is up again.

sure you can prolong it.. but then no more incursions until the population comes up again because theres no reason for sansha to waste the effort raiding a raided system because people dicked around in the defense effort

ONLY THE HARD.  ONLY THE STRONG.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#526 - 2012-03-27 14:23:29 UTC
HARD STEEL wrote:
the incursions are about sansha snatching up people right?


Actually by this point the RP for incursions is just Kuvakei being all "Trololol I am going to lose ships by the tens of thousands in badly planned incursions so capsuleers can get rich from CONCORD bounties! I sure showed the galaxy!"

Also, anything involving "people count" in Eve ends badly. If you think about it, between all the ratting, us capsuleers (numbering less than half a million at any time) have killed probably close to a trillion people so far with all our "ratting" and other such activities.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#527 - 2012-03-27 17:28:03 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
HARD STEEL wrote:
the incursions are about sansha snatching up people right?


Actually by this point the RP for incursions is just Kuvakei being all "Trololol I am going to lose ships by the tens of thousands in badly planned incursions so capsuleers can get rich from CONCORD bounties! I sure showed the galaxy!"

Also, anything involving "people count" in Eve ends badly. If you think about it, between all the ratting, us capsuleers (numbering less than half a million at any time) have killed probably close to a trillion people so far with all our "ratting" and other such activities.


The funniest thing that the role playing 'people count' arguement falls flat is with the Damsel... how many times has that **** been saved & how many times has she gone back for more?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#528 - 2012-03-27 17:41:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Not sure if I said this earlier in the thread, I talk in incursions one lost, but the 411 on my view.

I am one of the starting incursion runners. I ran the live events of 2010 to great zeal. Lead the 200+ man defence fleets. Unpredictable and awesome.

Incursions released, we did not no the mechanics yet or the npcs. Risky. General fleets took a while to clear sites, were awesome.

Now, people know the mechanics, have fleets exactly to clear the vanguards which overpay for the time it takes and also as such, the risk is gone

Changing the rewards is not the correct answer. Two things should be done to incursions to make them on balance as fun and non farming pve.

1. Spawn randomization. Somehow make what spawns be an attempt to counter the fleet. Homeworld 2 had this. The enemy would build to counter you if you focused on one ship combat type. Force a fleet to generalize, and make it unknown what the combat is, takes longer to clear the site, and is riskier. Don't know if the next spawn is going to be a mass wave of long range ship to pick off your gank pulse legions. Neut battleships to take out the ewar/web bhaalgorns? TD to mess up machariels? Get fleet diversity and proper FCing back.

2. Spawn rate changing. This one could even come first, and probably easier to implement. Match the spawn rate of sites to the level of system control regained. If at 100% it takes 20 minutes for a site to respawn, vanguard farming would be on par with any other pve. People would go to the more major sites where clear time would match the respawn time. Ergo, to get the isk, as you regain control, you gotta head into the tougher sites. Ideally, to get that last 100% make it so you need to start doing the 100%. Have each site type only give a portion of control back. Ie Vanguards only up to 65%, assaults to get 25%, hq for the last 10%.

Oh, and offgrid boosting. The incursion fleets rely on offgrid ganglink boosts from t3 to get the super tackles. Though that is a personal bug more than anything, I don't like offgrid boosting.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#529 - 2012-03-27 17:58:14 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Markus Reese wrote:

Changing the rewards is not the correct answer. Two things should be done to incursions to make them on balance as fun and non farming pve.

1. Spawn randomization. Somehow make what spawns be an attempt to counter the fleet. Homeworld 2 had this. The enemy would build to counter you if you focused on one ship combat type. Force a fleet to generalize, and make it unknown what the combat is, takes longer to clear the site, and is riskier. Don't know if the next spawn is going to be a mass wave of long range ship to pick off your gank pulse legions. Neut battleships to take out the ewar/web bhaalgorns? TD to mess up machariels? Get fleet diversity and proper FCing back.
.



+1 this as I've said before: NERFING IS A CRAPPY BALANCING MECHANIC... its a lazy quick fix where better thought out content changes & fixes could go a long ways towards a more awesome game. BUFfing of the assaults sites & HQ sites rewards were you more often see ship deaths would help some but I'd like to see BUFING of the Vanguards difficulty ( in ways like described by the quoted poster ) instead of just the 10% cut of all bounties which seems to be CCP Soundwaves quick fix. If missions & belt rats could see more sleeper/Incursion AI rats popping up then IMHO we'd see alot less bots creating inflation. My idea would be to make the game more fun then a quick fix which doesn't add to the fun to the game
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#530 - 2012-03-27 18:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
reserved
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#531 - 2012-03-27 20:38:14 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:

Changing the rewards is not the correct answer. Two things should be done to incursions to make them on balance as fun and non farming pve.

1. Spawn randomization. Somehow make what spawns be an attempt to counter the fleet. Homeworld 2 had this. The enemy would build to counter you if you focused on one ship combat type. Force a fleet to generalize, and make it unknown what the combat is, takes longer to clear the site, and is riskier. Don't know if the next spawn is going to be a mass wave of long range ship to pick off your gank pulse legions. Neut battleships to take out the ewar/web bhaalgorns? TD to mess up machariels? Get fleet diversity and proper FCing back.
.



+1 this as I've said before: NERFING IS A CRAPPY BALANCING MECHANIC... its a lazy quick fix where better thought out content changes & fixes could go a long ways towards a more awesome game. BUFfing of the assaults sites & HQ sites rewards were you more often see ship deaths would help some but I'd like to see BUFING of the Vanguards difficulty ( in ways like described by the quoted poster ) instead of just the 10% cut of all bounties which seems to be CCP Soundwaves quick fix. If missions & belt rats could see more sleeper/Incursion AI rats popping up then IMHO we'd see alot less bots creating inflation. My idea would be to make the game more fun then a quick fix which doesn't add to the fun to the game

Sometimes nerfing is necessary. If the only solution for incursions is buffing the aspects that seem underwhelming we will just end up at a place where the entire incursion feature is as imbalanced income wise as VG's are now. In all reality the payout structure shouldn't have people idling in the 2nd lowest type of site. People who are familiar with incursions should want to move to assaults and HQ's while leaving VG's to less experienced people wanting to get in and be paid decently while learning the ropes.

Changing spawns and even partial randomization is a good idea in the short run, but people will adapt and find ways to achieve similar if not the same levels of efficiency. Not that I'm against this, it probably still needs to happen. VG's need nerfed and the higher sites need buffed slightly. Blitzing needs to be done away with as well. This may be able to be accomplished by having the ships in sites that would normally warp off after the objective is complete remain.

Also a note from personal experience; I've never seen an incursion with any sansha influence remaining. In only a few hours of being spawned one of the major factors that is supposed to add difficulty, the DPS and resist penalties, are completely gone leaving people to farm with their full capabilities. The fact that influence could be gained so quickly after the adjustment that was done led to me being totally unable to participate in incursions during the time shortly after that tweak. the MS was being spawned and killed entirely too fast and this is what led to the farming agreements which have formed and exasperated the issues of incursion earnings. Influence regain needs to be nerfed well below current levels and probably needs to be closer to the original levels and in the case of farming at full influence, there may even need to be a permanent penalty on ship performance so long as the incursion is present regardless of influence level.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#532 - 2012-03-29 18:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
[quote=Markus Reese]
Changing the rewards is not the correct answer. Two things should be done to incursions to make them on balance as fun and non farming pve.

Sometimes nerfing is necessary. If the only solution for incursions is buffing the aspects that seem underwhelming we will just end up at a place where the entire incursion feature is as imbalanced income wise as VG's are now.


I disagree in that the propper buff to the Vanguards NPC's would reduce the ISK/hour the shiney blitz OTA or NCO fleets would be able to rake in. The 2-3 minute clicks would be increased to the equivalent times to do a NMC. NMC's seem to be the only Vanguard site that can't really be blitzed
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#533 - 2012-04-03 04:04:52 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
How about fixing the ******* Nation Consolidation Network assault site or just taking them out of the game totally? nothing kills an assault fleet like piece of shite Nation Consolidation Network sites. They take longer then all the HQ sites ( including the Kundalini manifest ) on average. Take out 1 of the rooms and double the reward at least!!! I try to do them but they suck so bad all too often peeps in fleets would rather do level 3 mission sites then do these lame ass sites. Its not like ships die in them maybe fix it so you don't get triple spaws of reppers which make the rooms take 10-15 mintes to finish? What other PvE in all of EVE requires you to split up a fleet in all of EVE, HUH?!?! they were an experiment that died in flames take them out of assault systems please! You'fix tried to fix it before by allowing logistics in the right hand side but it only helped soo much. Please check the statisics of how often pilots even do these sites any more. They just stack up then we give up on assault systems
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Cobalt Rookits
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#534 - 2012-04-03 05:25:57 UTC
As it stands, I can see how the heavily optimized NCO runners can give an incorrect view of Incursion runner income. Frankly, you can get really huge payouts with a properly filled fleet because you can chew through the spawns so fast. As a suggestion, make the frigs in NCOs either spawn another wave (or 2)or maybe some additional rats with much larger tanks. Something similar with the OTAs (not much experience with them though).

Essentially, rather than a flat nerf to payouts, or more risk (which punishes new pilots the most!) make them take more time, so they fall in more with NMCs, or whatever goal for income/hr you think is needed (not a huge reduction but something more even imo).

Also, to reduce competition in VGs more, make the HQ and Assault payouts ISK/hr more than VGS by at least 10%. Frankly right now there is no reason to do them -much more risk, less reward, and HUGE headaches for FCs and anyone interested in doing larger fleet engagments in a PVE setting. Also the rewards for scout systems need to be looked at too, as I have never seen anyone do one

And you know,... fix NCNS, they really are that bad.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#535 - 2012-04-03 06:03:22 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Cobalt Rookits wrote:
As it stands, I can see how the heavily optimized NCO runners can give an incorrect view of Incursion runner income. Frankly, you can get really huge payouts with a properly filled fleet because you can chew through the spawns so fast. As a suggestion, make the frigs in NCOs either spawn another wave (or 2)or maybe some additional rats with much larger tanks. Something similar with the OTAs (not much experience with them though).

Essentially, rather than a flat nerf to payouts, or more risk (which punishes new pilots the most!) make them take more time, so they fall in more with NMCs, or whatever goal for income/hr you think is needed (not a huge reduction but something more even imo).

Also, to reduce competition in VGs more, make the HQ and Assault payouts ISK/hr more than VGS by at least 10%. Frankly right now there is no reason to do them -much more risk, less reward, and HUGE headaches for FCs and anyone interested in doing larger fleet engagments in a PVE setting. Also the rewards for scout systems need to be looked at too, as I have never seen anyone do one

And you know,... fix NCNS, they really are that bad.


OTAs are almost just as bad TBH a shield fleet can easily do them under 4 minutes anymore ( maybe closer to 3? ) NCO's are done in 2.5 to 3 minutes if not sooner. CCP NCN's suck and always did its depressing how many times have you tried to fix them & got barely anywhere? At least the OTA's got fixed... time for assaults to get some love ( seriously fix NCN's or get rid of them )
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
ReptilesBlade
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#536 - 2012-04-03 06:18:26 UTC
Joe SMASH wrote:
Reduce payouts across the board. Bring vanguard sites down to level 4 mission (ISK/hr) payouts (per member of fleet).

Anyone else who complains about people killing the Mom are ignorant to the way incursions were supposed to be run. Farming vanguards w/o giving thought to killing the mom to extend the incursion as long as possible is nothing short of an exploit that should be fixed.


This was the best one I saw. Do this.

I run incursions almost exclusively these days. Most of them VGs. I could live with something like this with maybe a slight LP payout boost.

If the payout went down more than 15-20% I would consider quitting Eve because Incursions and the new friends I have made running them are the only things keeping me playing this game right now.
Otebski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#537 - 2012-04-03 07:23:08 UTC
A lot of ppl covered balancing isk and sansha. I have one wish.

Remove please the **** hue filter from incursion systems. It looks horrible. If you need some visual representations add fires to plants, WHs appearing in space, Concord convoys around stations in high sec.. Whatever. Just please remove the **** hue.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#538 - 2012-04-03 19:48:45 UTC
Otebski wrote:
A lot of ppl covered balancing isk and sansha. I have one wish.

Remove please the **** hue filter from incursion systems. It looks horrible. If you need some visual representations add fires to plants, WHs appearing in space, Concord convoys around stations in high sec.. Whatever. Just please remove the **** hue.


Concord CONVOYs being attacked by Sansha & burning planets with multiple WH's to SANSHA NPC space would be a cool idea +1
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#539 - 2012-04-03 21:36:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
DarthNefarius wrote:
Otebski wrote:
A lot of ppl covered balancing isk and sansha. I have one wish.

Remove please the **** hue filter from incursion systems. It looks horrible. If you need some visual representations add fires to plants, WHs appearing in space, Concord convoys around stations in high sec.. Whatever. Just please remove the **** hue.


Concord CONVOYs being attacked by Sansha & burning planets with multiple WH's to SANSHA NPC space would be a cool idea +1


This would be very cool. However I think any change to this would probably have to wait until the V3 upgrades are done. The ability to do proper lighting effects would really be the only way to have that same sort of system under assault effect.

ReptilesBlade wrote:
I run incursions almost exclusively these days. Most of them VGs. I could live with something like this with maybe a slight LP payout boost.

If the payout went down more than 15-20% I would consider quitting Eve because Incursions and the new friends I have made running them are the only things keeping me playing this game right now.


Hence, increase challenge instead of reducing payout. I don't know about more people, but I find variety alot more enjoyable than farming. Farming for low isk is still farming. Same isk per hour, but with an unknown challenge that takes a bit more is really the way to go. I have been calling for it for, well, since last spring. Almost a year.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
ReptilesBlade
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#540 - 2012-04-04 06:12:55 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Otebski wrote:
A lot of ppl covered balancing isk and sansha. I have one wish.

Remove please the **** hue filter from incursion systems. It looks horrible. If you need some visual representations add fires to plants, WHs appearing in space, Concord convoys around stations in high sec.. Whatever. Just please remove the **** hue.


Concord CONVOYs being attacked by Sansha & burning planets with multiple WH's to SANSHA NPC space would be a cool idea +1


This would be very cool. However I think any change to this would probably have to wait until the V3 upgrades are done. The ability to do proper lighting effects would really be the only way to have that same sort of system under assault effect.

ReptilesBlade wrote:
I run incursions almost exclusively these days. Most of them VGs. I could live with something like this with maybe a slight LP payout boost.

If the payout went down more than 15-20% I would consider quitting Eve because Incursions and the new friends I have made running them are the only things keeping me playing this game right now.


Hence, increase challenge instead of reducing payout. I don't know about more people, but I find variety alot more enjoyable than farming. Farming for low isk is still farming. Same isk per hour, but with an unknown challenge that takes a bit more is really the way to go. I have been calling for it for, well, since last spring. Almost a year.


I could live with slightly increased difficulty and be happy with that as well.