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[Proposal] CSM Member Real Life Names

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Lanasak
Doomheim
#141 - 2012-04-02 17:56:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lanasak
Supported.

Members of the community willing to act as community advocates to CCP do not deserve to be harassed at work by their in-game enemies. This happened to Darius Johnson, Jade Constantine, and plenty others. It's time for that to end.
Aineko Macx
#142 - 2012-04-02 18:20:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Aineko Macx
Liang Nuren wrote:
Aineko Macx wrote:

Well most of the time I agree with you Liang, but that is absurd. The argument has been abused countless times in history (only when convenient ofc). By that logic, all persons somehow exposed to publicity would have to run with pseudonyms. Imagine RL politics running anonymously lol. And it doesn't end there. If you want to keep anonymity for CSM members you'd have to avoid public appearances or broadcasts (at least with voice and image scrambling) because someone might identify them. And quite obviously with prominent use of facebook noone seems to give a fck.

CSM happens in meatspace and the idea to make it work like a virtual space is bound to fail. Also, revealing some personal details adds some accountability to the CSM candidacy which I find highly desirable.

I have to agree with RogueOperator, if you're not ok with that, don't run.


This is not real life, and these are not real life politicians. Please separate the two quite firmly in your mind.

-Liang

Ed: Also, I am extremely concerned about the people who keep insisting that real life information is required to keep CSM candidates/delegates accountable.

Way to cherry pick the arguments you reply to... At least you implicitly agreed that it would be impossible to guarantee a candidates anonymity.

Now onto the argument you did reply to: It doesn't suit your proposal, but for most part the line between game in RL is a blurry one. And unless you see it from a RPing perspective, the CSM are RL player representatives, not of in-game characters. In fact, apart from their interest focus, very little of the CSM is not RL.

Also, tell me more about your paranoia about people that would prefer representatives to drop anonymity. Do you think it doesn't add accountability or do you not want that? The latter is only of concern for people that intend to **** people off, in which case you shouldn't be in the CSM (or do you disagree with that as well?).

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
evil kneevil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#143 - 2012-04-02 18:44:16 UTC
LOL!

Kudos to The Mittani for remaining a true Internet Spaceship Spy Guy. He has the balls and resoursefulness to turn even his curent sh*tty situation to the advantage of Goons in the future.

1. Get your real life adress (which is easy to find anyway) posted anonymously.
2. Get one of your henchmen to threaten raping your wife on EVE radio.
3. Get another one of your henchmen (Liang the OP) to spin this into a crybaby story that victimizes Mittens himself.
4. Turn it into a whoring campaign against CCP to anonymize CSM memberships - i.e. make CSM accessible to hordes of aspie sociopaths from Goonswarm.
5. ????!!!!
6. PROFIT!!!1
RDevz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#144 - 2012-04-02 18:55:18 UTC
evil kneevil wrote:

4. Turn it into a whoring campaign against CCP to anonymize CSM memberships - i.e. make CSM accessible to hordes of aspie sociopaths from Goonswarm.
5. ????!!!!
6. PROFIT!!!1


I'd be really interested to see your thoughts on stage 5. In our experience, the CSM is a hell of a lot better when it's got competent, social, sane people on it. Just compare the success of CSM 6, led by Comrade Chairman Mittens, to any of the other ones.

~
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2012-04-02 19:41:33 UTC
Aineko Macx wrote:
Way to cherry pick the arguments you reply to... At least you implicitly agreed that it would be impossible to guarantee a candidates anonymity.

Now onto the argument you did reply to: It doesn't suit your proposal, but for most part the line between game in RL is a blurry one. And unless you see it from a RPing perspective, the CSM are RL player representatives, not of in-game characters. In fact, apart from their interest focus, very little of the CSM is not RL.

Also, tell me more about your paranoia about people that would prefer representatives to drop anonymity. Do you think it doesn't add accountability or do you not want that? The latter is only of concern for people that intend to **** people off, in which case you shouldn't be in the CSM (or do you disagree with that as well?).


tell me more about accountability and anonymity, npc alt

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#146 - 2012-04-02 20:21:31 UTC
evil kneevil wrote:
LOL!

Kudos to The Mittani for remaining a true Internet Spaceship Spy Guy. He has the balls and resoursefulness to turn even his curent sh*tty situation to the advantage of Goons in the future.

1. Get your real life adress (which is easy to find anyway) posted anonymously.
2. Get one of your henchmen to threaten raping your wife on EVE radio.
3. Get another one of your henchmen (Liang the OP) to spin this into a crybaby story that victimizes Mittens himself.
4. Turn it into a whoring campaign against CCP to anonymize CSM memberships - i.e. make CSM accessible to hordes of aspie sociopaths from Goonswarm.
5. ????!!!!
6. PROFIT!!!1


As I told Jade last night: if I'd had any clue about the RL harassment he went through, I'd have included his story as evidence of how deranged our player base can be in the OP. RL harassment over a video game is simply not acceptable - regardless of if its someone harassing The Mittani, Jade Constantine, or you.

And frankly, if you want to discount what happened to The Mittani: Jade Constantine's story is enough for me to have made this proposal.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aineko Macx
#147 - 2012-04-02 20:22:47 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
tell me more about accountability and anonymity, npc alt

Why so bitter?

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#148 - 2012-04-02 20:46:22 UTC
Aineko Macx wrote:

Way to cherry pick the arguments you reply to... At least you implicitly agreed that it would be impossible to guarantee a candidates anonymity.


Its also impossible to guarantee my own anonymity. That doesn't mean I go broadcasting my name, face, and address every time I make a post on Eve-O.

Quote:

Now onto the argument you did reply to: It doesn't suit your proposal, but for most part the line between game in RL is a blurry one. And unless you see it from a RPing perspective, the CSM are RL player representatives, not of in-game characters. In fact, apart from their interest focus, very little of the CSM is not RL.

Also, tell me more about your paranoia about people that would prefer representatives to drop anonymity. Do you think it doesn't add accountability or do you not want that? The latter is only of concern for people that intend to **** people off, in which case you shouldn't be in the CSM (or do you disagree with that as well?).


I don't see it from an RP perspective, but I also have the capability of understanding that we don't elect the players behind the characters. We vote for the players because of their in game accomplishments combined with a bit of freely given out of game context for why they would make a good CSM candidate. Arguing that having their real life information lets you get to know them is total hogwash and is frankly a little bit creepy. Almost any way that you go about using the information could easily be classified as RL harassment.

As to your argument about accountability: I contend that the CSM members are not personally and out of game accountable to us as players. They are accountable to us to do the job which we elect them for, and if they go about being disruptive or not doing that job it should be obvious from already established methods (including CSM minutes and dev blogs). If they screw up with CCP (for example, by breaking the NDA) then CCP will remove them and bar them from running in the future.

At no point in this is it necessary for you to have their real life information to make them accountable to you... and your desire to have that personal guarantee of accountability is frightening.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
evil kneevil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#149 - 2012-04-02 20:48:55 UTC
RDevz wrote:
evil kneevil wrote:

4. Turn it into a whoring campaign against CCP to anonymize CSM memberships - i.e. make CSM accessible to hordes of aspie sociopaths from Goonswarm.
5. ????!!!!
6. PROFIT!!!1


I'd be really interested to see your thoughts on stage 5. In our experience, the CSM is a hell of a lot better when it's got competent, social, sane people on it. Just compare the success of CSM 6, led by Comrade Chairman Mittens, to any of the other ones.


I completely agree, which is why I think Mittens deserves to remain in CSM7.

I also think CCP is every bit as responsible for the f*ck up at the Alliance Panel as Mittens. The panel was moderated by a CCP employee, who made no comment when Mittens was reading from his side about The Wis, and did nothing to reprimand Mittens when he urged his minions to help The Wis become an hero.

My conclusion: CCP messed up, but unlike Mittens who at least had the decency basic PR awareness to take responsibility and apologize, CCP is trying to get away with scapegoating Mittens and make him the only one who has to pay.

I still can't see how making CSM candidates disclose their names gets in the way of bringing more competent, sane and social individuals in. Your own words prove my point: CSM6 had no anonymous members and still did a great job.
Aineko Macx
#150 - 2012-04-02 21:23:52 UTC
If the intent is to curb RL harassment and if you'd be righteous about it, then you'd also be calling for reprimands against the harassor. Since it is impossible to guarantee the candidates anonymity, setting a clear policy about this is the way to go. CCP seems to be awakening to this responsibility, tho I'm sure their gonna be lazy about it (read: only do stuff when there is external scrutiny). The asymmetry between the anonymity of the harassor and the exposed victim makes this technically challenging but not impossible. In Jade's case you should easily be able to apply one of the new cyber-bullying laws. Get the wheels turning and deliver the perpetrators details to the local authorities.

I don't approve of it, but the fact that mittens is getting what his minions usually deal to others is epic irony.

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
None ofthe Above
#151 - 2012-04-02 21:24:55 UTC
evil kneevil wrote:
RDevz wrote:
evil kneevil wrote:

4. Turn it into a whoring campaign against CCP to anonymize CSM memberships - i.e. make CSM accessible to hordes of aspie sociopaths from Goonswarm.
5. ????!!!!
6. PROFIT!!!1


I'd be really interested to see your thoughts on stage 5. In our experience, the CSM is a hell of a lot better when it's got competent, social, sane people on it. Just compare the success of CSM 6, led by Comrade Chairman Mittens, to any of the other ones.


I completely agree, which is why I think Mittens deserves to remain in CSM7.

I also think CCP is every bit as responsible for the f*ck up at the Alliance Panel as Mittens. The panel was moderated by a CCP employee, who made no comment when Mittens was reading from his side about The Wis, and did nothing to reprimand Mittens when he urged his minions to help The Wis become an hero.

My conclusion: CCP messed up, but unlike Mittens who at least had the decency basic PR awareness to take responsibility and apologize, CCP is trying to get away with scapegoating Mittens and make him the only one who has to pay.

I still can't see how making CSM candidates disclose their names gets in the way of bringing more competent, sane and social individuals in. Your own words prove my point: CSM6 had no anonymous members and still did a great job.


You wouldn't be a RougeOperator sock puppet would you? Similar incoherence. Anyway...

Exactly how would "anonymizing" the CSM throw it open to hordes of anyone. The only people you could exclude by knowing their IRL names is people whose name you already know. The only real danger would be alts of current or past CSM members and candidates plus the few players that have already disclosed their name.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
evil kneevil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#152 - 2012-04-02 21:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: evil kneevil
Liang Nuren wrote:
evil kneevil wrote:
...


As I told Jade last night: if I'd had any clue about the RL harassment he went through, I'd have included his story as evidence of how deranged our player base can be in the OP. RL harassment over a video game is simply not acceptable - regardless of if its someone harassing The Mittani, Jade Constantine, or you

And frankly, if you want to discount what happened to The Mittani: Jade Constantine's story is enough for me to have made this proposal

-Liang


It makes no difference to the fact you are spinning R/L harassment stories to garner support for some other agenda, one that has nil to do with stopping R/L harassments in Eve

Mittens has been known as Alex Gianturco ever since he started his tenure at CSM6. During that time Goonswarm staged Hulkageddons, invaded space, burned spaceships and made lots of people pubbies shed tears of blissful rage.
And all this time, it occured to no one to figure out Mr. Gianturco's place of residence and threaten to force coitus on his spouse. But now, now he has done it. Boy, are they pissed!! When he told everyone to make The Wuss off himself, those vile rapists just couldn't help it anymore, they had to do something about it!
Sorry. NOPE. Not buying. Roll

You can back off now and make this about Jade Constanine or whoever, but the fact you spun this story after the farce on eve radio involing Mittens' wife has done your case poor service. It only reminded everyone that anonymity is most often not a shield against RL harassments, but rather a cover to people who are most likely to conduct such harassments

Back to your proposal - I'm sorry, it makes no sense, it's evil, it's stupid and it must die. Luckily, CCP will throw it out of the window regardless of how much support it gets.
CSM members are public figures who willingly chose to make their involvement with the game go past their in game character into the real world. This entails some commitment, part of which is deanonymization.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#153 - 2012-04-02 22:22:38 UTC
evil kneevil wrote:

It makes no difference to the fact you are spinning R/L harassment stories to garner support for some other agenda, one that has nil to do with stopping R/L harassments in Eve
...
You can back off now and make this about Jade Constanine or whoever, but the fact you spun this story after the farce on eve radio involing Mittens' wife has done your case poor service. It only reminded everyone that anonymity is most often not a shield against RL harassments, but rather a cover to people who are most likely to conduct such harassments
...
Back to your proposal - I'm sorry, it makes no sense, it's evil, it's stupid and it must die. Luckily, CCP will throw it out of the window regardless of how many support it gets.
CSM members are public figures who willingly chose to make their involvement with the game go past their in game character into the real world. This entails some commitment, part of which is deanonymization.


I'm not going to bother responding back to you because its obvious that you are a deranged individual. It should be patently obvious that I am against RL harassment regardless of who is being harassed, and I have a long standing aversion to RL information being given out. I am truly frightened that you seem to have such a desperate need to know people's IRL information.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
evil kneevil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#154 - 2012-04-02 22:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
None ofthe Above wrote:

Exactly how would "anonymizing" the CSM throw it open to hordes of anyone. The only people you could exclude by knowing their IRL names is people whose name you already know. The only real danger would be alts of current or past CSM members and candidates plus the few players that have already disclosed their name.


Anonymizing the CSM will make it open to hordes of people who would otherwise not have run, because "meh, I have to tell everybody my name and stuff".

Usually those who make a great deal of their privacy and anonymity online, do so not out of fear of being harassed. It surely isn't about their wives being harassed, you figure out why Lol

So to begin with, this campaign for anonymizing CSM is hypocritical and wrong in the way it spins R/L harassment stories as justification.

If you're going to campaign for CSM anonymity, at least do it honestly. Say that you want CSM to be open for anons. For people who like to speak their minds freely online. Not having to be polite, considerate or even humanly decent. Those who like to vomit all over with all those pesky values and tedious social norms they've been stuffed with since prepuberty. Those who enjoy to express their true feelings about helping a blind old lady cross the street - hell, pushing her under the bus for teh lulz is the real thing!


BTW, if there's anything I respect Mittens for, it's his willingness to forfeit his anonymity and run about in this game with his real identity known to everyone. He doesn't mind the accountability that comes with this "outing". This is the only thing that indicates a genuine real life personality behind the in game character. This is why his apology as Alex does have merit, even though I still adamantly believe he only posted it as damage control vs CCP.
evil kneevil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#155 - 2012-04-03 01:50:39 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:

Ok, I must admit I didn't quite understand some of your arguments, specifically those criticizing Liang's proposal, so I'm just going to ignore them in my response. Let's hope no one notices, I don't like to appear dumb or illiterate or anything :/

That's okay, buddy. Really, there's no need to feel bad, as it can happen to everyone.
Here's a TL;DR version in easy English:
  • Liang says: bring anonymity to CSM, so CSM candidates don't have to disclose their R/L info which may get them harassed IRL by other players of Eve.
  • I think that Liang really wants to bring anonymity to CSM, just so he(1) or his friends could run to CSM without having to disclose their real names.

    • (1) I don't know or care about him enough to actually find out if he has his real name disclosed anywhere. Either way, I postulate that stopping real life harassment has nothing to do with the true agenda behind his proposal.

    None ofthe Above wrote:

    What you call "Aspies", or any person that has significant dysfunction that may impair their ability to serve properly, are going to pretty easy to spot during the campaign process. I don't think disclosure of their real life names has anything to do with it.

    You may be correct that it lowers the bar a bit for that type of person to cast an entry into the race, but I don't think that type will do well.


    I never suggested that aspies can't run for CSM or do a great job on board. I actually think that aspies and antisocial jerks make tremendous alliance leaders and awesome CSM reps. I probably wouldn't vote for an aspie who gets off on blowing hulks in hisec but I also accept the reality of these people being fundamental to the success and prosperity of Eve and they deserve representation in CSM in proportion to their numbers and influence.

    I just think that if a goon aspie wants to run for CSM, having them disclose their real life names is a fair and appropriate bar. It ensures that only those motivated enough to forfeit their anonymity will make it through.

    Regarding possible harassment IRL - quite honestly, I already illustrated exactly why this is nonsense. If Mr. Gianturco could roam New Eden for over a year, as one of the most infamous and reviled characters in the game, and yet have his R/L details exposed, I think everyone can do that. And if someone does make real life threats, I think any sensible person would agree that the only solution is to deanonymize and prosecute the offender. Not trying to anonymize future "potential victims".

    None ofthe Above wrote:

    Heck I barely know you and I suspect you are a loon. Wasn't that hard to figure out.
    But really I just said it because I'm pissed that you called me an aspie.

    As I explained above, just because you're an aspie, doesn't mean you can't run for CSM. You just need to muster the courage and tell everybody your real name.
    Cearain
    Plus 10 NV
    #156 - 2012-04-03 04:41:00 UTC
    I am not really sure on this one. How far does this go?

    If CSM meet in iceland are they supposed to only talk to other in person using their ingame name? Would it be a violation of the Eula if someone accidently refered to someone else by their real name?

    Can the csm member insist that they never be shown on camera or have their voice heard?

    This is pretty bad pr for the game if people on the csm have to basically act like they are in some sort of witness protection program isn't it?

    That said it is pretty clear that allot of people take this game too seriously. Mittani once mentioned in a podcast how some eve playing lawyer kept getting harrassed in real life by goons sending faxes to his office (or something like that).


    Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
    Zircon Dasher
    #157 - 2012-04-03 06:24:14 UTC
    Just so I can be clear on the argument people have against this proposal:

    Nobody knows that Liang Nuren = The Mittani
    Liang Nuren runs for CSM
    Because the RL names of the candidates are not revealed Liang is elected to the CSM
    Mittens can go back to ruining EVE

    Did I summerize it correctly?


    Seems to me that unless CCP has some issues with RL names not being released to the playerbase (wierd laws or something) it should have been in place years ago.

    Maybe I misunderstood the complaint though.

    Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
    Kirith Kodachi
    Stay Frosty.
    A Band Apart.
    #158 - 2012-04-03 12:09:07 UTC
    I support this initiative. Real names and passports to CCP, eve char names for the rest of us.
    Lanasak
    Doomheim
    #159 - 2012-04-03 13:00:37 UTC
    Zircon Dasher wrote:
    Just so I can be clear on the argument people have against this proposal:

    Nobody knows that Liang Nuren = The Mittani
    Liang Nuren runs for CSM
    Because the RL names of the candidates are not revealed Liang is elected to the CSM
    Mittens can go back to ruining EVE

    Did I summerize it correctly?


    Seems to me that unless CCP has some issues with RL names not being released to the playerbase (wierd laws or something) it should have been in place years ago.

    Maybe I misunderstood the complaint though.


    How was Mittens ruining EVE, specifically? Also, I suspect that if Goonswarm wants to get people on the CSM in any given term, they will.
    Elsebeth Rhiannon
    Gradient
    Electus Matari
    #160 - 2012-04-03 14:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
    Yep, sounds reasonable.

    It might make sense to require CSM members to reveal any "public figure" alts, though. At least require that if you have been in the CSM before, you run under the same character name again. It would be weird if we could not use information on past performance in the CSM while making voting decisions. :)

    Obviously, real identities will be revealed when people meet each other for RL, be it for CSM or for Fanfest or just local meets. But EULA/TOS already forbids you from posting that information to the forums, ingame, etc.