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Incursions and possible lies from CCP?
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Stanford Ngada
Wakizashi of the Frozen Skies
#41 - 2011-09-26 16:30:40 UTC
I've only driven through a couple of incursion zones but my overwhelming impression from reading the "Incursion local" chat was that it was just like a WoW PuG raid. The same kind of attitudes and elitism (Link GS What?). The same references that make no real sense unless you've done it (Link Achievement?)

On the other hand I can sympathise with people who've spent a lot of ISK fitting a ship properly that they don't want a Leroy in their fleet (sorry about the WoW reference but I think the analogy holds). And with EVE you can just buy a bunch of plexes and have a billion ISK fit with barely the SP to fly it or use it sensibly.

I do a lot of logistics with a friend but I have no idea how "real" fleet logistics work and no wish to lose other people their ships while I find out.

And on the community front I'm not sure you can lay that on CCP - except in the most general way. The players make the community and the whole thing about EVE is that it encourages paranoia. Because nowhere is safe and anything goes and scamming, ganking, etc are perfectly acceptable playstyles, trust is become a rare commodity. That makes communities harder to form.

I keep coming back to EVE because it is beautiful. But the incursions just seem to be a half-executed attempt at a PvE end-game which has pulled in the raiders from other games with many of the attitudes I didn't like there. Or maybe it is raiding that creates those attitudes amongst the indigenous population.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#42 - 2011-09-26 16:38:37 UTC
Alexandra Alt wrote:
Is it me, or in thread where there is proper exchange of ideas and an healthy discussion the developers avoid participating ?

Most of the blue tagged threads are either feedback requests, or random funny posts (apart from a couple or two rare ones), the ones with actual exchange of ideas and 'juice' tend to be forgotten...

My impression at least.


Oh well, maybe it's just "bad luck" Lol

And to above poster (Stanford Ngada) I respectfully agree, sir.
I can honestly say you have yet to even scratch the surface of what incursions are and the massive community within it.
I'd rather like to think incursions as a PVP-training ground. I'd really hope CCP would be able to confirm me in this, but I have a nagging feeling that ever since incursions were introduced the amount of players skilling for logistics and buying t2 logistics must have had quite a rise.
I recall myself seeing the price of guardians and basilisks shoot up by tens of millions after the expansion. :)
And why is this good? Because incursions is training carebears to run out into lowsec/nullsec and PVP.

Logistics
DPS
Fittings
Overview (velocity coloumn, etc. etc.)
Fleet window
Following orders

All that above is something an experienced incursion runner knows by heart and thus has a better chance of succeeding whenever he decides to join a corp/alliance or a bunch of friends for pvp.
Lugalzagezi666
#43 - 2011-09-26 16:58:28 UTC
My impression is, that incursions never supposed to be "entry-level" pve. Just look at scout sites. If ccp wanted to attract low sp players to incursions, theyd give the scout sites proper rewards.

Competitive enviroment is one of balancing factors, that allow incursions to provide really good isk/h for hisec. If everyone could get same amount isk/h as some best vanguard blitz fleets, the nerf storm on forums would soon lead to incursion nerf.

Not that it would be bad idea - i personally think, that highest tier sites /hq/ should have best isk/h, since the amount of risk is highest, so is the amount of time to form them and amount of experience needed to lead them. Then assault sites and then vanguard.

But its just mine opinion.

I also think, that people, who bring suboptimal ships to the fleet, shouldnt get the same reward as people, who are contributing much more. But since such mechanics to measure the contribution and redistribute the reward accordingly doesnt exists in game, its up to fcs to decide, who they invite to fleet and who not.
Alexandra Alt
Doomheim
#44 - 2011-09-26 17:06:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexandra Alt
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
My impression is, that incursions never supposed to be "entry-level" pve. Just look at scout sites. If ccp wanted to attract low sp players to incursions, theyd give the scout sites proper rewards.

Competitive enviroment is one of balancing factors, that allow incursions to provide really good isk/h for hisec. If everyone could get same amount isk/h as some best vanguard blitz fleets, the nerf storm on forums would soon lead to incursion nerf.

Not that it would be bad idea - i personally think, that highest tier sites /hq/ should have best isk/h, since the amount of risk is highest, so is the amount of time to form them and amount of experience needed to lead them. Then assault sites and then vanguard.

But its just mine opinion.

I also think, that people, who bring suboptimal ships to the fleet, shouldnt get the same reward as people, who are contributing much more. But since such mechanics to measure the contribution and redistribute the reward accordingly doesnt exists in game, its up to fcs to decide, who they invite to fleet and who not.


Do note that were not talking about low SP players, were talking about people with more than enough SP's to be able to fly said required ships but their entry level is barred because the tight group doesn't let them in. Read the previous posts.

About what Incursions should be about, there's room for everything tbh, hell, there should be even room for solo'ers imo, it ain't hard tbh, many many many small sites some guys can solo around that contribute little to the progression and in return obviously offer isk accordingly to how easy they are. There could be also sites for 2~3 ppl to do them (probably aimed at 5 people and obviously some guys will managed to figure out a way to blitz them with 2~3 ppl). and the usual 10~20~40 ppl current ones.

AFAIK (note, I'm not quite informed in the subject), the rewards are given according to how much you invested into contributing for the incursion take down ?
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#45 - 2011-09-26 17:07:54 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:


I also think, that people, who bring suboptimal ships to the fleet, shouldnt get the same reward as people, who are contributing much more. But since such mechanics to measure the contribution and redistribute the reward accordingly doesnt exists in game, its up to fcs to decide, who they invite to fleet and who not.


Well it's exactly that. The lesser powerful fleets WILL get less isk because they will finish the sites slower than better fleets even if there is no competition, but if the lesser fleets never win they will not be interested in continue wasting time on a lost cause.
Just like many before said, you shouldn't have to fly 500 + million isk ship just to have a tiny shot at getting some isk or else be doomed to always losing fleets because the constellation is so crowded.
TriadSte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2011-09-26 17:24:43 UTC  |  Edited by: TriadSte
I do agree that fleets shouldn't have a requirement but thats the way it is, The more DPS you can apply the faster your running which makes for a nice wallet.

You'll not see a Rokh or a megathron for example in a fleet of Nightmares/Vindys/Machs, Only if nothing better is Xing up...

If people want a taste of Incursion theres nothing wrong in giving it a go but be smart, What can you offer a fleet?

Scimi - 3 tracking links
Basilisk - Tracking link or Remote Sensor Booster
Tengu - Webs+TP
Bhall - Webs
Vindy - Webs
Nightmare - The best all round Incursion ship in the game
Mach - 2nd best incursion boat
Vindy - NMC pop mobile also very useful in OTA
Loki - Webs

The list goes on....

No tier 1 BS offers these abilities therefore only get in "good" fleets if theres no1 else available. This is why getting a faction/pirate ship is the only way to get in good fast fleets. Only these ship types offer abilities which are needed for incursions.

EDIT:

Thinking of regular T1 BS I have noted a Rokh and Megathron even Tempests so give those ago.
Lugalzagezi666
#47 - 2011-09-26 18:00:10 UTC
Guys, if there was room for everyone and you would be good with 500m /or less/ ships, then the incursions in hisec shouldnt be worth more than 60m, maybe 70m isk/h. Current situation is much different, we are talking here about 100m+ isk/h.

Also Alexandra, i came back to eve after 2 month break, still bored with fw and pvp and decided to try incursions again. I ran only few of them in lowsec in amarr militia space and even less in hisec when they came out, so i had almost no experience. I joined btl pub, looked at motd, checked incursion guide, bought mods, fitted nightmare and went into incursion constellation. I spammed my fit in channel for 5 minutes and got fleet invite.

In first hour with fleet i made 100m isk. So for tight group doesnt letting new people in. Ofc most experienced people with super expensive ships /call them elitist pricks if you like/ wont invite you to their closed fleets and channels, but would you invite possible griefer/noob who could wreck your multibillion ship /or even whole fleet/ or just slow you down?

Yes, sometimes you just dont get an invite, thats why i said you could be just unlucky. Last week when 3 incursions were prematurely closed, all people in channel were like crazy when new one in amarr appeared - soon there were 300+ ppl in constellation and sites were absolutely overcrowded. I posted my fit, but noone invited me, so i formed own fleet and invited bunch of people xing up. I soon realized, what 120+ ppl in vanguard system means. Still i liked the competition and we got some sites we have to compete for, even it was against much more experienced fcs /i think one of them was kittytomahawk who was fc in first incursion fleet after break hehBlink/ - we got 80-90m in a hour before i have to leave due to rl.

Thats my experience.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#48 - 2011-09-26 18:04:02 UTC
Hi Obsidian here,


The bars are broken, and always read the wrong %.


It's on the list of things to fix. So if you incursion after down time, assume you have penalties.


Always assume something will go wrong, if you dont you die.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.
Zey Nadar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2011-09-27 14:53:16 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:


Why would fc invite your 300-400m ship into fleet, when he can choose from tens of 1,5bil+ pirate bs, marauders and t3s? You must be prepared to invest more than 400m to get into fleets as combat ship.


I hate this kind of attitude among players.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2011-09-27 15:07:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Zey Nadar wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:


Why would fc invite your 300-400m ship into fleet, when he can choose from tens of 1,5bil+ pirate bs, marauders and t3s? You must be prepared to invest more than 400m to get into fleets as combat ship.


I hate this kind of attitude among players.


Er, why? It's a logical thing for an FC to do. If an FC wants his fleet to make as much isk as possible, and there's a 1250 DPS pimped Nightmare looking for a fleet, or a ~600DPS "300-400m" Tengu looking for a fleet... Why is the FC supposed to pick the Tengu? It's his fleet, it's a sandbox, and the FC is going to go with the option which benefits him more. Is it selfish? Perhaps. Is it EVE? Yes. Is it completely valid? Yes. If the Tengu doesn't like it, he can find a more remote Incursion where more ships are needed regardless of how expensive, or he can wait for another fleet to come around and invite him.

That said, before I was able to fly Scimis/Guardians, I used to regularly take standard armor fit Hurricanes to Incursions, and most of the time, found an invitation within 10 minutes. Mind you, these were just standard 60-mil ships, yet people were willing to toss me a bone. Maybe it was because of my fitting - I had dual webs and a TP in my mids, and what VG fleet doesn't like that?

If, after two weeks of advertising a 300-400mil ship in incursion channels without getting an invite, you're either A) In the wrong Incursion for your purposes (showing up at a predominantly armor inc with a shield fit) B) Badly fitted (Like 90% of Drakes) or C) Don't know where/how to advertise yourself.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2011-09-27 15:16:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
TriadSte wrote:


Why can't CCP make it so that after a DT the system penalties were the same as before Downtime? Can the Sansha operate on a offline server? I don't think so!



Actually funny enough all the other timers I can think of do continue to count down during down times.
Training.
POS counters.
Siege counters
SOV counters.
etc etc etc

Not saying it is right or wrong in the case of incursions, just saying this might be the reason why CCP is having issues.
Incursions would then be the exception where all counters stop while the servers are offline.
Not the normal standard of counters count where you are there to do anything about it or not.

Then of course it comes down to was the intent to have the counters continue to count down during down time.
If the answer is yes then there is a bug in displaying the modifiers.

Or the intent is to have the timers stop. then it is a case of the timers not doing that.

Depending on intent you might not like the fix.

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Sturmwolke
#52 - 2011-09-27 20:22:59 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
TriadSte wrote:


Why can't CCP make it so that after a DT the system penalties were the same as before Downtime? Can the Sansha operate on a offline server? I don't think so!



Then of course it comes down to was the intent to have the counters continue to count down during down time.
If the answer is yes then there is a bug in displaying the modifiers.

Or the intent is to have the timers stop. then it is a case of the timers not doing that.


The incursion bar is dynamic, in simple terms, it's a contest between positive growth vs a certain decay rate.
Concerning the graphical bar updates, it should be just a trivial matter of refresh frequency, fetching that info from the DB.

The positive growth in the above case is the rate/number of incursion sites completed, possibly aggregated or weighted accordingly with the site difficulty.
When Tranquility encounters a downtime, this decay continues - resulting in a lower bar when the server goes up.

Remember, during the early days of incursions, the growth/decay rate was a little off balance that it made it almost impossible or very difficult for players to achieve a full blue bar.
Part of the reason is probably that they haven't adapted to incursion tactics, unlike now .... they have adapted (the players are really Borgs Big smile).

To solve the issue, I'm guessing they need to freeze that decay counter .... or put up a ghost growth counter with data from just before DT.
The latter is probbaly easier to tack on I think, rather than messing around with the decay counters.
Louise Ferrigno
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2011-09-27 20:27:35 UTC
this will be fixed right after blasters
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#54 - 2011-09-27 20:57:38 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:


The incursion bar is dynamic, in simple terms, it's a contest between positive growth vs a certain decay rate.
Concerning the graphical bar updates, it should be just a trivial matter of refresh frequency, fetching that info from the DB.

The positive growth in the above case is the rate/number of incursion sites completed, possibly aggregated or weighted accordingly with the site difficulty.
When Tranquility encounters a downtime, this decay continues - resulting in a lower bar when the server goes up.

Remember, during the early days of incursions, the growth/decay rate was a little off balance that it made it almost impossible or very difficult for players to achieve a full blue bar.
Part of the reason is probably that they haven't adapted to incursion tactics, unlike now .... they have adapted (the players are really Borgs Big smile).

To solve the issue, I'm guessing they need to freeze that decay counter .... or put up a ghost growth counter with data from just before DT.
The latter is probbaly easier to tack on I think, rather than messing around with the decay counters.


Sorry, but you are incorrect.
In 20 min. time with no incursions being done the bar should in NO WAY be lower than 80 % blue influence if it was 100 % blue influence before downtime.
Talking from experience of course.
Sturmwolke
#55 - 2011-09-27 21:16:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
Ammzi wrote:
Sorry, but you are incorrect.
In 20 min. time with no incursions being done the bar should in NO WAY be lower than 80 % blue influence if it was 100 % blue influence before downtime.
Talking from experience of course.


Well, the assumption you're making there is that CCP's growth/decay data is fresh.
Another assumption there is linear decay when it encounters a certain amount of zero growth period.
You'd be right if it were, and maybe there's something extra in the decay equation.

However, I'm talking about general concepts.
The exact details can be speculated to death, a pointless exercise imo.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#56 - 2011-09-27 21:36:51 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Sorry, but you are incorrect.
In 20 min. time with no incursions being done the bar should in NO WAY be lower than 80 % blue influence if it was 100 % blue influence before downtime.
Talking from experience of course.


Well, the assumption you're making there is that CCP's growth/decay data is fresh.
Another assumption there is linear decay when it encounters a certain amount of zero growth period.
You'd be right if it were, and maybe there's something extra in the decay equation.

However, I'm talking about general concepts.
The exact details can be speculated to death, a pointless exercise imo.


The most logical and simple solution to an incursion bar (keep it simple stupid KISS) is simply to run a cycle which adds or substracts a number for the total influence after X minutes (an interval) if the influence is less than 100 % red (meaning capsuleers are engaging).

Now let's assume that CCP hasn't changed their incursion influence algorithms since the last time they did it (which they announced in a blog) then I can safely say the following:

I have been sitting in several mothership fleets WAITING for the influence to reach 100 %.
I have witnessed the influence drop from 99 % to 98 %. This drop in influence was because everyone in the constellation was in the mom fleet and no one was doing sites to pump the influence up.
I can as well safely say that this process took in the interval of 5 min. for the influence to drop 1 %. So for the influence to drop 80 % in a 20 min. interval is very unlikely and most likely a bug in the system somewhere.

Again, the assumptions that I am making are very safe and logical.
TalonKarrde84
Ysalamiri Ltd
#57 - 2011-09-27 23:10:05 UTC
Quote:
even "sorry dude you smell" would be more acceptable tbh that simply outright ignore.


LOL, I was only skimming this thread so I don't know if anyone addressed this yet (Ammzi probably did), but...

Are you serious?

So, what you're saying is, instead of focusing on killing the Sansha or keeping our fleet's ships alive, we should all be hovering in BTL Pub waiting for you to x up so we can say "sorry bro"?

You're not being ignored (that would be Youth who gets everyone to block him, lulz), you just need to understand that most FCs are going to have BTL Pub minimized or even closed until they have a need for new ships.

Get out of this mentality of needing to be babied every step of the way.

Bring a T1 battleship, yes, it's probably going to be passed over for all the Sleipnirs/Machariels/Nightmares/Vindicators out there.

Bring a Drake or Raven*? Yes, you're going to get laughed at.

Get butthurt about it and yeah, people are probably going to start ignoring or blocking you.

However if you can take constructive criticism or even just say "can someone convo me, I'm new at this" and more likely than not one of the experienced Incursions runners such as Ammzi or myself might just take 5 minutes to lay it all out for you.

There are also plenty of websites out there for you to glean information from.

This is not different from any other part of Eve Online - individual research and a non-butthurt attitude will get you a lot farther than expecting everyone to just cater to you.

More on butthurtery: Incursions aren't L4 missions. Get that idea out of your head now. Yes, to be competitive for Vanguard invites you will need certain ships which (after MUCH experimentation by the brightest minds in the business) have been determined to be optimal for incursions - Loki or Bhaalgorn for webbing duty (1 per 10 or 11-man fleet), Basilisk or Scimitar for logi reps (recommended 3 logis per fleet), and Sleipnir/Vindi/Nightmare/Mach for dps - not necessarily in that order of priority.

If you don't have much SP in ship flying/turret skills the easiest ships to break into incursions with is probably Logi.

A lot of people fly that while they're training for that shiny Nightmare.

tl;dr - don't cry, adapt




* Ravens actually make OK snipers for Assaults and Headquarters but if you try to bring one to a Vanguard you deserve the ridicule
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#58 - 2011-09-27 23:34:54 UTC
TalonKarrde84 wrote:

LOL, I was only skimming this thread so I don't know if anyone addressed this yet (Ammzi probably did), but...



*grins* Check out the 2nd page (page before this). I have written whole novels there! Lol
But you do add another layer to it ^^
Sturmwolke
#59 - 2011-09-27 23:49:54 UTC
Ammzi wrote:

Again, the assumptions that I am making are very safe and logical.


Yes, thank you for the explanation on those assumptions. Smile
Do, again, keep in mind that I'm/we're talking about totally eliminating the DT bar drop as a whole .... not the specific mechanics of the drop.

Threw me off there for a while P
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#60 - 2011-09-28 00:27:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Roosterton wrote:
Zey Nadar wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:


Why would fc invite your 300-400m ship into fleet, when he can choose from tens of 1,5bil+ pirate bs, marauders and t3s? You must be prepared to invest more than 400m to get into fleets as combat ship.


I hate this kind of attitude among players.


Er, why? It's a logical thing for an FC to do. If an FC wants his fleet to make as much isk as possible, and there's a 1250 DPS pimped Nightmare looking for a fleet, or a ~600DPS "300-400m" Tengu looking for a fleet... Why is the FC supposed to pick the Tengu? It's his fleet, it's a sandbox, and the FC is going to go with the option which benefits him more. Is it selfish? Perhaps. Is it EVE? Yes. Is it completely valid? Yes. If the Tengu doesn't like it, he can find a more remote Incursion where more ships are needed regardless of how expensive, or he can wait for another fleet to come around and invite him.

That said, before I was able to fly Scimis/Guardians, I used to regularly take standard armor fit Hurricanes to Incursions, and most of the time, found an invitation within 10 minutes. Mind you, these were just standard 60-mil ships, yet people were willing to toss me a bone. Maybe it was because of my fitting - I had dual webs and a TP in my mids, and what VG fleet doesn't like that?

If, after two weeks of advertising a 300-400mil ship in incursion channels without getting an invite, you're either A) In the wrong Incursion for your purposes (showing up at a predominantly armor inc with a shield fit) B) Badly fitted (Like 90% of Drakes) or C) Don't know where/how to advertise yourself.



QFT.

Sadly, a lot of newer players are unaware that there are several "levels" of incursion. What I see most of them doing is trying to get into high-end fleets and that simply will not work.
If someone were to take the lead and form noob fleets for the low-end systems, systems in which you can solo up to a Raa Thalamus in a T1 cruiser (I've done it) they would get a feel for Incursions, get some experience in fleets, and by the time they are up to that 1.5Bil ISK faction BS, actually know what the hell they were doing. Many times in incursions I have run across wrecked T2 logis - the salvage was good though.

So there is a very wide gap: high SP high end fleets working the big payout sites, and in the lesser systems, (staging) plenty of sites that more advanced fleets would not waste their time on. Meanwhile, the noobs go crying.

What do you do here? The existing content of incursions allows for some noob fleets and nobody is fighting over that content, but newer players are inherently adverse to both the mechanics and "ways" of forming up in fleets.

My impression is a lack of information is the problem. Something the tutorials have not covered? Perhaps. But beyond that it's not clear to me.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!