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CCP: Tell us what is and what isn't allowed for crying out loud!

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Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
#41 - 2011-09-26 15:10:55 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
However, please forgive me that I am not answering the points that have been brought up right away, even though most of them are pretty obvious and clear cut (in my opinion at least). As the answers to those points will most certainly be quoted back to us in petitions for the time to come, I'm sure you understand that I don't just want to blurt out something real quick, as much as I'd like to Smile
THIS is the problem. In your opinion? Really? All this things need to be known and clear beyond doubt, not only by us but by you as well. Rules must not be guided by opinion, there must be an equal treatment for everyone. That's why support on this matters is often a bad joke.
Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#42 - 2011-09-26 15:21:11 UTC
The Usual amount of trolling aside.

A centralized depository of bannable and against the rules FAQ's from the petition in a prominent location on the site is really overdue.

This should be also linked in the client at the file petition window IN BIG LETTERS

Seriously this will limit the wasted work effort on the GM's side as well and should be addressed and adhered to.

If you GM's want to answer the same things over and over again sure do not do this. Big smile
Satav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2011-09-26 15:45:25 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
please forgive me that I am not answering the points that have been brought up right away, even though most of them are pretty obvious and clear cut (in my opinion at least).


HEHEHE.

I'm sry dude, but he's right. Anyone who spends a moderate amount of time reading the Eula and forums/evesearch will know the answers to all these questions.

If you don't know the answers, may i suggest you research your topics thoroughly before you rant and rave on the forums.

And if you still don't get your answer, petition and I'm sure a GM will answer your question.

Thank you for wasting my time. Have a nice day.
GM Karidor
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#44 - 2011-09-26 16:19:05 UTC
Krathos Morpheus wrote:
GM Karidor wrote:
However, please forgive me that I am not answering the points that have been brought up right away, even though most of them are pretty obvious and clear cut (in my opinion at least). As the answers to those points will most certainly be quoted back to us in petitions for the time to come, I'm sure you understand that I don't just want to blurt out something real quick, as much as I'd like to Smile
THIS is the problem. In your opinion? Really? All this things need to be known and clear beyond doubt, not only by us but by you as well. Rules must not be guided by opinion, there must be an equal treatment for everyone. That's why support on this matters is often a bad joke.


You are correct, but I was referring more to wording the replies to each point. The situations as described are quite clear, but GM Statements etc. on them are spread around a variety of places (and in fact sometimes even contradicting due to the time that has passed between them), and this thread seemed like an opportunity to react to this and eventually even revise some of the policies on the matters that were brought up to clear them up and state the current situation as of now. But this is something I will not do on my own whim in a quick reply due to the implications of making such statements.

Also, if all of those points would be black and white and clear cut, then this thread would not exist, would it?

On a side note, point 10 (putting your own videos onto the Screen in the Captains Quarters) just has been addressed in a new dev blog.

As for the rest, working on it.

GM Karidor | Senior Game Master
AFKCloaked AltSpy
Doomheim
#45 - 2011-09-26 16:28:11 UTC
Taedrin wrote:
CCP has always had a history of poor communication with their customers. Mind you, I'm not talking about developers talking on the forums. The devs post here all of the time. But the fact of the matter is that there is little to no official communication from CCP to the players.

This is highlighted by CCP's chosen method of informing players what is and isn't deemed "an exploit": by having each and every single individual player file a petition about it. To make matters worse, players are not even allowed to share this information with other players.

Seriously, is there even a less efficient way to do this!?!?

And to make matters worse, when game policy changes, players have no means to learn about these changes.

Yes, we have the CSM to communicate with CCP, but that only happens a few times a year, and their meetings are bound by NDAs.

What we need is a central location, such as on a locked evelopedia page, where CCP can definitively declare in a public avenue what IS and what ISN'T allowed. This way when policy changes, players can at least see when changes are made. And even better, if this happens, we can free up precious GM resources that would otherwise be wasted on redundant questions.

Here's a starter list for CCP to make definitive public statements on:
1) Keyboard macros a'la the G15 Logitech keyboard
2) Loggoffski/loggonski
3) Corp hopping to evade war decs
4) Corp recycling to evade war decs
5) Alt recycling
6) Alliance hopping to evade war decs.
7) Using alt corps to artificially inflate the cost of war decs
8) "Hacking" local chat to make you not appear on other people's local channel
9) can baiting in newbie systems
10) Modifying non-executable EVE data to make decorative changes to EVE, such as getting the TV to play customized videos.
11) Market cache scraping to automatically collect,collate and upload market data.

And I'm sure there are dozens of other topics that CCP should make public statements about.


1. Every single item you have listed has been answered by a dev or GM on either the old or these forums.
2. If its an exploit, making it public knowledge is absolutely bad.
Armtoe
Arton Yachting and Angling Club
#46 - 2011-09-26 16:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Armtoe
Lithalnas wrote:



9) can baiting in newbie systems
considered a bannable offence



I think you are overstating this one. As I understand it, the prohibited activity in a newbee system is jetting a can and labeling it something like "free ore." However, you can go into a newbee system and bait mine into a can (without labeling the can in such a way that it is deceptive) in the hopes that some budding new pirate will flip it. IMO both are "can baiting," but only one is prohibited.
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
S0ns Of Anarchy
#47 - 2011-09-26 16:47:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Zey Nadar wrote:
CCP doesnt seem to have a clear opinion about these things, hence GMs will give contradictory info, and hence they cant put up for example locked wiki page telling what that opinion is.

Just another example of CCP being directionless really.
…and funnily enough, a central repository (whether open or not… but preferably open) would provide them with the same direction and clarity that we as players would enjoy.

I'd envision it going something along the lines of CCP creating a largely empty wiki page and making it one of those “officially moderated” ones; the players filling it up with FAQs and hypotheticals and about common grey areas (and some “known” no-nos); and then locking the page. The GMs can then work down that list and fill in the official answers. The page is then only updated by the GMs (or some poor guy who gets tricked into being the collector/updater of recent new questions).


You must be confused. This is not a place to make sense.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#48 - 2011-09-26 16:55:24 UTC
Armtoe wrote:
Lithalnas wrote:
9) can baiting in newbie systems
considered a bannable offence
I think you are overstating this one. As I understand it…
…and that is the whole problem. This is something where we actually have an official statement on the matter, but it is done in briefly, in passing and it is rather incomplete. It is also hidden away in a place where you might not think to look.

Plastering the answers to these kinds of questions, in full, on a single page with e big glowing neon sign hanging on it is just plain old good sense.
Malkuth Delapounti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2011-09-26 17:08:09 UTC
Ya on that whole bannable if you can bait in rookie system... Well My 3rd day I was can baited by a guy named evepirate in a rookie system. In fact that day he killed lots of rookies that did not udderstand much of anything like me in those days. Or what can baiting was even.

So if its bannable. I have not seen it in the 2 or so weeks I spent in rookie space. Sorry.
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2011-09-26 17:08:43 UTC
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:


1. Every single item you have listed has been answered by a dev or GM on either the old or these forums.
2. If its an exploit, making it public knowledge is absolutely bad.


1. Yet you do not provide links to each of these answers. Why? Because it would take you 5-10 minutes (or longer) to hunt down each GM/dev response. Furthermore, for old responses, we do not know if and/or when CCP has changed their policy. This is a problem which should have been rectified a LONG time ago.

2. I should probably clarify, I do not want CCP to publicly reveal exploitable bugs - we can all agree that it would be a terrible idea for CCP to tell us how to duplicate moon goo. What I want is for CCP to definitively and publicly declare which activities which are within the intended game mechanics are prohibited.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#51 - 2011-09-26 17:12:33 UTC
It is quite worrying that the last, very clear, exploit announcement I can recall was the "Yes, even if you use a Black Ops jump drive, avoiding destruction by CONCORD is an exploit."... And the one before that was the Wasp drone ban prior to RMR.

The POS dupe exploit was (as I recall) very much announced as a fait accompli - which is why I'm not counting it...


To add another one for clarification (as I first heard of the concept as an exploit but it has become pretty much a given over the past few years):

Webbing slow warping ships (particularly freighters and so forth) after they start their warp to reduce their maximum speed and therefore their align time.
AFKCloaked AltSpy
Doomheim
#52 - 2011-09-26 17:26:51 UTC
Taedrin wrote:
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:


1. Every single item you have listed has been answered by a dev or GM on either the old or these forums.
2. If its an exploit, making it public knowledge is absolutely bad.


1. Yet you do not provide links to each of these answers. Why? Because it would take you 5-10 minutes (or longer) to hunt down each GM/dev response. Furthermore, for old responses, we do not know if and/or when CCP has changed their policy. This is a problem which should have been rectified a LONG time ago.

2. I should probably clarify, I do not want CCP to publicly reveal exploitable bugs - we can all agree that it would be a terrible idea for CCP to tell us how to duplicate moon goo. What I want is for CCP to definitively and publicly declare which activities which are within the intended game mechanics are prohibited.


Why? Because I read it when it was hot. If its not enough of a concern to spend 5 minutes researching its probably not a big deal.
malaire
#53 - 2011-09-26 17:31:10 UTC
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
Why? Because I read it when it was hot. If its not enough of a concern to spend 5 minutes researching its probably not a big deal.

OK, can you show GM answer to question 11. I have never seen one (except in my personal petition), only players saying they have got answer from GM.

New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#54 - 2011-09-26 17:52:34 UTC
I know that CCP bashing is the new forum sport but, how about using a little common sense (and reading the TOS that you had to read and agree to before connecting to Tranquility for the first time) here folks? What you're asking is for CCP to look for any and every possible scenario and to make a statement as to whether it's allowable or not? Really?

Logically and logistically that would be an impossible task.

As to the questions posed by the OP, they're covered in the TOS, Knowledge Base and Wiki (with the exception of logoffs which were addressed by multiple dev posts--there is no way for the server to distinguish between a network outage, power outage, if someone blew up a data center, or if someone clicked 'quit', therefore this "issue" cannot be addressed).

I will say that having the information in a centralized location with appropriate links and citations would make things simpler, however.
malaire
#55 - 2011-09-26 18:00:25 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
As to the questions posed by the OP, they're covered in the TOS, Knowledge Base and Wiki (with the exception of logoffs which were addressed by multiple dev posts--there is no way for the server to distinguish between a network outage, power outage, if someone blew up a data center, or if someone clicked 'quit', therefore this "issue" cannot be addressed).

It's not that simple. For example EULA says "You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes ..." but GMs have approved using G15's programmable buttons to execute several keypresses with just one button, which is exactly what I understand with phrase "stored rapid keystrokes".

New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#56 - 2011-09-26 18:00:40 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
I know that CCP bashing is the new forum sport but, how about using a little common sense (and reading the TOS that you had to read and agree to before connecting to Tranquility for the first time) here folks? What you're asking is for CCP to look for any and every possible scenario and to make a statement as to whether it's allowable or not? Really?
No. That is not what we're asking for.

We're asking for a place where they collect commonly asked questions (and their official answers) such as the ones presented in the OP, and on an on-going basis add answers as they come up in petitions.

Quote:
As to the questions posed by the OP, they're covered in the TOS, Knowledge Base and Wiki
Actually, no, they're not. In fact, at least one of the official answers to the OP's question directly contradicts the TOS. The one thing that is covered is the can baiting question, and that answer is rather fuzzy.

That's the whole point: to not chase around all those places (and thereby receive contradictory, false, or outdated information), but to have one place where the final answer on some specific detail that has come up throughout the years is posted. Hell, it even helps the GMs do their job.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#57 - 2011-09-26 18:06:29 UTC
Not to mention the complete reversals that happen frequently. The latest is the Orca trick going from perfectly legitimate for 2+ years to exploity enough to warrant a code change.

Hell, it is possible to get completely different answers from the GMs on the same question by changing the tone/format of a petition .. it is in CCPs own best interest to at least have an internal list of these things which they most definitely do not.
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2011-09-26 18:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Taedrin
Nick Bete wrote:
I know that CCP bashing is the new forum sport but, how about using a little common sense (and reading the TOS that you had to read and agree to before connecting to Tranquility for the first time) here folks? What you're asking is for CCP to look for any and every possible scenario and to make a statement as to whether it's allowable or not? Really?

Logically and logistically that would be an impossible task.

As to the questions posed by the OP, they're covered in the TOS, Knowledge Base and Wiki (with the exception of logoffs which were addressed by multiple dev posts--there is no way for the server to distinguish between a network outage, power outage, if someone blew up a data center, or if someone clicked 'quit', therefore this "issue" cannot be addressed).

I will say that having the information in a centralized location with appropriate links and citations would make things simpler, however.


Reading the TOS is all well and good, except for a few tiny little problems:

Quote:

25. CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any user’s account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.

26. We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.


OR IN OTHER WORDS, what this means is that the TOS is not a comprehensive list of "the rules".

And the problem with "a little common sense" is that one person's common sense is not the same as another person's common sense. To one person, it is common sense that when 100+ people logging off at a gate, then all logging on when a rival fleet enters the system is a log-on trap and is exploiting. To another person, it is common sense that you can log on and log off whenever you want. CCP has gone BOTH ways, so your argument that all you need is a "little common sense" is meaningless.

Continuing with the Log on trap example, BOTH the knowledge base and evelopedia have no information about them.

Therefore, the only thing left to do is to manually search through thousands of threads on the topic (time consuming), or file a petition (wastes precious GM resources).

I am arguing that having a central location is MORE than just a convenience - it is something that we should have had a LOOOOONNNNNGGGG time ago.

EDIT: And just to be clear, it is obvious from my posting history that I am actually a CCP fanboi. Me saying something negative about CCP is rather out of character for me and has NOTHING to do with it being "popular" to bash CCP. Although I must say I am somewhat disappointed that threads which cast CCP in a negative light receive far more forum attention than positive ones. But that is probably just the nature of human beings, who tend to pay more attention to bad news than good news.
Something Random
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2011-09-26 18:28:24 UTC
So..... CeeCeePee is so bad for not engaging in communicae with there player base, even though they openly state that they wish you to engage upon the personal petition method to find all this out.

Wanna buy a bridge ? anybody in this thread..... cheap.....

"caught on fire a little bit, just a little."

"Delinquents, check, weirdos, check, hippies, check, pillheads, check, freaks, check, potheads, check .....gangs all here!"

I love Science, it gives me a Hadron.
Prince Kobol
#60 - 2011-09-26 19:02:58 UTC
As far as I am aware no other MMO Developer has a defined list of was is or isn't considered an exploit.

I know many players (myseld included) ask both Codemasters (when they were supporting EU players) and Turbine of a defined list of exploits as during a certain period there was a lot of ambiguity regarding certain things yet they stated that they would not and never will do this.

Effectively when there was any ambiguity regarding if something was an exploit they only to know for sure was to do it and then see if you were caught and if so how you were punished.