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Dear CCP Soundwave: RE: income adjustment
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Farang Lo
Doomheim
#141 - 2012-04-02 00:59:50 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
0.0 is stagnant. Essentially no risk.
Low is a moderate risk.
High is the highest risk of losing an expensive ship.

Stop living in wonderland people. Look at the actual facts. So by the OPs definition, the highest rewards should be paid out in high sec.

But, it's a sandbox. It's not up to CCP to fiddle with. It's up to us.

If the people in 0.0 would stop hoarding and start destroying, the whole dynamic would change. You can't have stability unless you consume what you have. It the American way and the EVE way. Lets get a decent war going, folks. It works for the U.S. and it will work for EVE.

Mr Epeen Cool

have you ever even jumped into lowsec??
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#142 - 2012-04-02 01:22:23 UTC
Misanth wrote:
5 year old rabble



Living proof that intelligence and education are not always compatible. Lol
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#143 - 2012-04-02 01:38:43 UTC
Haikato Saraki wrote:
Just do it.
Dont wait for it to become a problem, just do it now, or soon, or whenever, just don't save the option as some kind of "save the universe" button because by the time its that big of a problem it will be too late.

10% hit to all bounty's will be an unpopular move, I get that, but consider this. You talked at fanfest about shifting more and more NPC services into the hands of players. I believe something along the lines of "your all grown up now, you can run jita" was said. Well that's great, Im excited for that! But the more NPC's you put out of a job the more isk-sinks you plug up.

So don't wait for the waves of isk to roll in once gun-mining is fixed, just do it now. 10% will not hurt the individual pilot that much and the sooner you do "balance incomes" the sooner we'll all get over it.



This seems simple on the surface, but according to Soundwave the total package is going to cause major disruptions.

"Cash out you RP now" because data cores are going to be Faction Warfare items... Big mistake.
Making Lowsec too profitable for highsec players to ignore by shifting needed resources to low... not a good idea.
Rebalancing Tech moons to an active mining profession - I like this, but it will cause the markets to grumble for a while.

There will be a typhoon of tears for taking away data cores from research agents. I cannot imaging the hate for taking away the access to data cores and hyper inflation on T2 items hits. Players bitching about lost skill points from researching industry and not combat just to make T2 items (including research) to have it all thrown in their face and told fight for it...

Along with the 10% bounty cut was the suggestion that NPC are softer now than they were 5 years ago from skill creep. I understand what Soundwave is saying, but I do not want CCP to balance the game around 100M SP players. Sure players breez through anoms in a Nyx, but so what? If the rats become a challenge for the Nyx to solo anoms, then will we all need a Nyx to do anoms? Not well thought out IMHO. If the barrier to playing the game creeps with the average player SP level, then I hate it for those who start playing EVE tomorrow.

Yeah, 10% bounty cut can be tolerated, but the other balances will cause too many problems.

This "balancing" package offeren was not thought through in regards to the lower skilled players, nor those who dedicate their play time in industry... Another push to force everyone into PVP in Lowsec space at any cost.


.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#144 - 2012-04-02 02:41:42 UTC
the more i think about it the more i like the idea of creating miniature "household" ISK sinks. why are the NPCs slaving for us for free? are they ******** or just very rich and altruistic? how about we add small fees to everything an empire dweller does? docking, undocking, jumping, storing stuff in stations etc. could all cost small amounts of isk that scale with volume. for example, undcking in a frigate could cost 100 isk, 1k in a cruiser and 10k in a battleship. same for jumps. you could even introduce some 'private security' npc corp that will help you in hisec faster than concord does, but only for a monthly fee
imho this would increase immersion as you would be constantly reminded of your status as citizen, while at the same time fighting inflation.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#145 - 2012-04-02 02:47:15 UTC
Just make it easier to gank mission runners.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#146 - 2012-04-02 02:56:21 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
the more i think about it the more i like the idea of creating miniature "household" ISK sinks. why are the NPCs slaving for us for free? are they ******** or just very rich and altruistic? how about we add small fees to everything an empire dweller does?
(snip)
imho this would increase immersion as you would be constantly reminded of your status as citizen, while at the same time fighting inflation.


lol you plan to nickle & dime Empire dwellers... very well for the 73% of Eve that lives there but what about nickle & diming NULL seccers too? How about toll bridges at every Warp Gate you have to pay to use it?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Gideon Tyler
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2012-04-02 03:41:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Gideon Tyler
I do not think we have an ISK problem. I see no reason to curb bounties or anything else for that matter.

Further, if we are going to reduce ISK, and I am not suggesting we do, it should be uniformly done and not disproportionately in terms of hitting hi-sec bounties as opposed to low sec/ null sec bounties, as some are suggesting.

As for those, that said that people needed more reasons to go to Low Sec/Null Sec, I would disagree. I think there are plenty of reasons to do both already.

Further, the way to attract people to Low/Null Sec space is not at all about ISK, it is about building a quality player experience and that includes Low and Null Sec Corps/Alliances that people want to be part of. If you build something worth being part of, the people will be there, regardless where you are located and the converse is equally true.

Last of all, CCP reducing ISK payouts in a game where you can be as rich as you want to pay for by buying PLEX seems very self-serving. We already have a game in which we can buy our way into wealth, why make that gap any wider except to make CCP more money at player expense? If we ever reach a point where we have to buy PLEX to be competitive, I call foul on CCP. PLEX buying should always be an option, not an in-game necessity.

Further, PI is less profitable than ever as the recent 1000% tax increase with the last expansion took a steady if unimpressive income source and hamstrung it somewhat. I do not think we need any more of that. Just my two cents.
Noa Fuyu
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2012-04-02 05:51:14 UTC
I just wonder how is it going to change anything for the good? I understand the issue but then looking at it I see those big 0.0 allainces who already hold space just getting richer and richer if 0.0 is buffed even more. And where are carebears gonna go then? I really dont see them moving to low sec because none of them want to fight. And then its difficult enough to get into a new corp or move out into areas where more isk is being made.

Does anyone think this will force people to leave over it? Depending on how big and what kind of nerf there is? These are the people that do sell off named modules into the market etc. Will hi sec maybe become the primary domain of miners?
Hroya
#149 - 2012-04-02 06:18:34 UTC
Because "everyone" just wants more and more.
No one wants to lose and goes to lenght to ensure they win. Flash their fat wallets, brag about their skills, slap the monkey silly over a list of killmails they own. etc etc.

CSM 6 asked what it would take to get people to move to null sec.
Obvious sollution was the introduction of Incursions and their meager income .. ..

High sec people are there to be farmed, get it ? They (we) pay for all the shiny stuff and goo that comes out of null etc. We slurp the high end minerals like an addict punctering his arm with a needle.

We offer the best killmails for lolz to gankers and the sort. We shed the most tears.

I honestly dont see what is wrong with high sec really. We provide a market to sell your stuff, create good laughs over yet another crying loss to the ebil players. We are so selfcentered that no reall resistence will ever happen. And as pointed out numerous times, most arent even welcome outside of high sec because they dont "fit".

And with a hord of alts from the outside residing in highsec doing their mains industrial side of the game or provide the isk through incursions, i am sure any change to high sec wont be as severe as most pitchforkers pretend to support.


You go your corridor but.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#150 - 2012-04-02 07:38:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Gideon Tyler wrote:

As for those, that said that people needed more reasons to go to Low Sec/Null Sec, I would disagree. I think there are plenty of reasons to do both already.

Further, the way to attract people to Low/Null Sec space is not at all about ISK, it is about building a quality player experience and that includes Low and Null Sec Corps/Alliances that people want to be part of. If you build something worth being part of, the people will be there, regardless where you are located and the converse is equally true.



There's also another factor.

Hi sec is the one place where somebody with just 1 hour tops a day playtime can do something. Flip a couple orders, build a couple modules, maybe mine while doing the above (using the remote trade / science skills). Maybe toss in a L4 or a DED 4/10 anom.

This kind of player profile is extremely common and rising in numbers and they can't join any kind of social organization so they form those 1 man corps. Being extremely common = bring a lot of subscriptions to EvE.
Imagine how is it to be the top alliance in game with thousands pilots yet still a small minority compared to how freaking many are "casual players", those providing CCP the big bucks without using their CPU, those providing the lol killmails, the wardec ransoms, the 200M in a badger suicide gank, the 50M in an Hulk suicide gank.

Now, you can make the though internet guy face to this mass of subscribers (EvE is not F2P) and tell them to join some 0.0 corp. To do what? To sit in a station-less system doing nothing because in their hour a day they can't join some pro corp so they are left to themselves with no markets, no small industry to do in that hour, possibly camped by neuts and still have to pay 2B a month in rent?

Before talking with your pro-butt hole, people should broaden their eyesight and see the variety of situations that put together form EvE. There's more than your pro-8 hours a day online team, and that team is already reaping the rewards of being able to leverage on group play to achieve what casuals will never be able to.
I have been on both the shoes for a lot of time, and having to become "casual" is a pathetic experience compared to the fun and rich experience achieved in a good corp, expecially in EvE.

Look at how incursions are popular. They are the closest thing to a social experience with relatively little time commitment we have got.
Same for WHs, they are total win and guess who they cater to? To those who are "borderline casual" and cannot / don't want to commit to those fat 0.0 alliances.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#151 - 2012-04-02 14:43:27 UTC
Nex Onerios wrote:
You said that there is no reason to go in Low/Null sec but don't forget these tech moons (and all the others) for example. But yeah most of the bigger Aliance don't let the base grunt see the color of this money (RMT ?). Alliance wide Null sec reward A LOT more ISK than high sec missions / Incursions !

If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !


That one we know is being fixed. This is according to Soundwave who commented on it with a tone that was not very complimentary to moon farmers. He called them personal atms. Log in, ching ching ching. He said changes are coming to moon minerals, and their plan when they change mining mechanics is that the new mining will allow players to be able to find moon minerals as well. Hopefully roaming miner gangs have a reason then to go on mining scan ops for the elusive tech.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Gideon Tyler
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2012-04-02 16:18:20 UTC
I think we need this on the front page a little longer to make it clear that not everyone is in favor of reducing bounties and other income in EVE. I hope CCP is listening to both sides of this argument.

I have nothing new to add to this discussion, but do think we need to get out of the paradigm in which CCP seems to give a disproportionate amount of weight to what Null Sec Alliances/Corporations want at the expense of Hi-Sec players.

*bump
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#153 - 2012-04-02 16:52:19 UTC
Gideon Tyler wrote:
I think we need this on the front page a little longer to make it clear that not everyone is in favor of reducing bounties and other income in EVE. I hope CCP is listening to both sides of this argument.

I have nothing new to add to this discussion, but do think we need to get out of the paradigm in which CCP seems to give a disproportionate amount of weight to what Null Sec Alliances/Corporations want at the expense of Hi-Sec players.

*bump


Bump from me as well. I am putting together some income trees (provided I don't bungle it up or get lazy) to break down mechanics of earnings. Will comment and compare issues where farming and botting are issues and need changes. Will also highlight parts that reducing income will have negative affects on solo players. I have always played single character while living through low and into null. Since I have never used an alt, I have a unique perspective compared to many other older players in places that earning is too high, too low or too easy. As such, able to be AFK earned.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#154 - 2012-04-02 16:52:44 UTC
Misanth wrote:
Pick one:
* Why should anyone live anywhere risky if there's no reward for taking said risks

Because there are different styles of gameplay. And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it...
Misanth wrote:
* Why should people contribute to the isk in-currency if they don't contribute in spending it

Prove *they* don't spend it... You can't.
Misanth wrote:
* Think about all us bittervets who had no missions or incursions, and started with ~50k sp/could barely even kill rats in highsec, we need to hate on people getting free isk, obviously, as back then we were all forced to go to low- or null to make *any* kind of income

Games changed over time... In 2003/4 there was dam near nothing but mining and pvp. And 16000 accounts...
Misanth wrote:
* I'm an economics major, 4 years, what about you?

I'm Harry Truman.

You read it here on the internets, so it has to be true...


Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Lanasak
Doomheim
#155 - 2012-04-02 16:55:20 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it...


ask the hisec incursion runners about that
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#156 - 2012-04-02 17:08:47 UTC
Conclusion: Nerf Incursions.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#157 - 2012-04-02 17:16:37 UTC
Raven Ether wrote:
Conclusion: Nerf Incursions.


Correction, fix incursions. This is the most promising and busted game mechanic of everything. The bounties would be fine if the mechanics matched it so like I often reiterate, don't nerf fix the following:

1. Randomize spawns: This gets rid of the I win fits and formats. Also cause risk of shinies being popped. Just like when incursions came out

2. Have site respawn timer adjust with system control. If system gets to 100% empire reclaimed, the respawn rate should be too slow to make easy sites worth it. This promotes the more challenging larger fleet sites.

3. Make getting full control require hitting the big sites. Need to get 65% from vanguards, 20% from assaults, and 15% from HQ to get mom to appear.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Zircon Dasher
#158 - 2012-04-02 17:21:17 UTC
Lanasak wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it...


ask the hisec incursion runners about that


Ask the null sec incursion runners about that.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#159 - 2012-04-02 17:21:47 UTC
Lanasak wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
And 0.0 already *can* make more than Hi-Sec. You just have to take the space that is worth it...


ask the hisec incursion runners about that


Ha ask the null sec Incursion runners who farm deep in SOV how much more ISKies they make when an incursion pops up there. NULL still makes better ISKies per hour its just more sporadic which is the nature of NULL (& W-space too for that matter)
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#160 - 2012-04-02 17:23:53 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Markus Reese wrote:
Raven Ether wrote:
Conclusion: Nerf Incursions.


Correction, fix incursions. .


Correction fix the higher level missions to incorperate Incursion/sleeper AI's which make them so much more difficult to bot
Want to bet bounty botting creates more inflation then any other activity?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'