EVE General Discussion

And then your Abaddons get outmaneuvered and their logistics get popped by Nano-Tempests. My Guardian has twice the EHP against that particular damage profile, and even it would prolly have gotten two-volleyed due to reaction delays and cycle time.

Everything in this game has a counter. Logistics have been around for years, and the means of countering them are well-known.

The logistics can be jammed out. A single Blackbird (cost of less than 10 million ISK) flown by a two-week-old pilot can take out at least one logistics boat (cost 160+ million isk) flown by an experienced pilot with milions of SP, and as many as three logistics boats, while sitting beyond the range of the enemy's guns.

The logistics can be neuted -- a Curse can cap out a pair of Guardians in under a minute. Even with Logistics V, a Curse can cap out a Guardian receiving two energy transfers in less than three minutes using just three medium neutralizers; most logistics pilots in my experience only have Logistics IV, and so can be capped out in thirty seconds using three neutralizers. While theoretically logistics have a range of 71km, in practice most will stay within 50km, and many will stay right on top of the main fleet along with everyone else.

The logistics can be sensor dampened. A logistics boat's maximum targeting range isn't much greater than its maximum remote repair range. Even a single sensor dampener using a targeting range script can drastically reduce the effectiveness of a logistics boat. A note to those complaining that ECM is chance based: sensor dampeners are always effective, albeit subject to optimal/falloff. For example, a Scimitar has a maximum lock range of 75km with perfect skills; a single scripted remote sensor dampener will reduce that Scimitar's lock range to 43km, and two will reduce it to a pathetic 27km.

The logistics can be target painted, which completely negates their low base signature radius. A Basilisk has less than half the EHP of a good fleet Drake, and less than a third the EHP of a good fleet Battleship. That means it takes much less dps and alpha to take out a logistics boat. Even if you don't have the volley damage to one-shot a logistics boat, enough dps applied in a short span of time will melt it all the same. See my link above.

And of course, good gangs will always have at least a pair of logistics with them. The effectiveness of logistics decreases as their numbers grow. Two logistics in a fleet of 20 allow that fleet to engage bigger targets. Twenty logistics in a fleet of 40 might give that fleet a bigger tank, but that fleet still won't have enough dps to do much with that tank. It'd be like bringing a fleet of Falcons: very little can get through the ECM of 20 Falcons, but those Falcons won't have the dps to engage much as compared with a fleet of 16 dps, 2 Falcons and 2 logistics.

The complaints, meanwhile, have also not changed. The folk complaining about logistics are usually those without enough imagination to do more than orbit anchor and shoot the primary, who cannot get one or two of their fleet members into Falcons or Blackbirds or Scorpions, or to fit sensor dampeners, or even to fit an ECM mod instead of a third sensor booster on their Drakes.

Yeah because ECM is totally not chance based. Also you assume that the blackbird is in optimal range, which it most likely isn't. Then you're also assuming that your opponent can a) not kill the Blackbird (because your gang has logistics too?) and b) your fleet sizes bloats with ships, especially with ECM which is generally considered a PVP boner breaker.



You clearly have no clue at all.
First you're assuming that a Curse generates infinite cap like Guardians.
Second you assume that a Curse in neut range will not get popped by the fleet surrounding the Guardians. Assuming a recon at point blank range to a fleet with Guardians will not die in a fire is plain ridiculous.



In case of Guardians: They don't give a ****. Guardians always hug the fleet they belong to.
In case of Scimitars: Instead of hanging 60km behind their fleet, they hang 25km behind their fleet. And that is also assuming a few things: a) your own ships have sensor boosters AND damps fitted, thus reducing their tank, b) assuming people in your fleet can do 2 things at the same time (the majority of 0.0 players simply can't do this), c) assuming that your fleet will once again be bloated by ships only serving one point, namely dampening logistics.



Here you're completely ignoring the fact that logistics are less of an issue with bigger fleets. Other than that, all my points from the previous quite apply here as well.
A Scimitar will not give a **** about being TPed either. At 100km range, what's going to shoot it? Arty pests? Are you assuming that a fleet including Scimitars will fight an arty Pest fleet? Or that it is TPed AND damped at the same time?



No, the ones who do small gang PVP and get completely wiped out by one single Scimitar in the hostile blob are the ones who complain. A blob doesn't have to worry about Logistics, simple as that. Logistics in a blob fight are breakable, in small scale warfare they are not.

The fact that all this comes from a guy in IRC, an alliance which is considered among the worst in this game, is even more amusing.

Who gives a damn if ECM is chance based or not? The fact is that it's horribly unlikely for a logistic ship to not get jammed at least 50% of the time, unless they gimp their fit to hell and back with ECCM. And when cap chains are involved, 50% of the time is more than enough.



First, many fleet Curses run with cap boosters so that they can keep on neuting for long periods of times. Alternatively, the Curse might be getting cap from a Guardian/Basi friend of his own.

Second, Curses have a 35km neut range, so they're hardly going to be "point blank" on the Guardians. They'll take a few scratches, but should be able to survive, especially if they switch out with friends who take over when they need to pull back, or if they have logis of their own to support them.



A) Bring a Lachesis. I hear they work pretty well with damps and Sebos.
B) This isn't logis fault, this is the fault of the people fighting the logis. It's like saying "nerf frigates because I'm too stupid to fit light drones," or "nerf smartbombs because I'm too stupid to orbit my inty out of smartbomb range."
C) Take two Lachesis', give them four damps each. Each one is now able to put the targeting range of two logis down to abysmal levels, which means for every lach you have, two logis are becoming pretty useless. That's efficient if you ask me.



At 100km, a Falcon or Scorpion will warp in and jam it, as well as 1-2 other logis.



ECM, damps, neuts, and everything I just said above disagree with you.

Finally - it's wonderful that you felt the need to screw any sense of your own credibility by resorting to attacking someone's alliance over a completely unrelated issue! I hope to one day be as elite of a forum warrior as you, Amsterdam Conversations.

If your small/medium gang has logistics, then there's no real issue with a Blackbird staying within friendly remote repair range (and thus within range of the hostile fleet), nor any reason to complain about opposing logistics. You may as well complain about the hostiles bringing more dps. If you have no logistics in a big fleet, then you have bigger issues to worry about. If you have no logistics in a small gang, then either bring e-war or ask folk to train for logistics. Again, there are numerous highly effective counters to logistics in all situations aside perhaps from neutral high-sec repping alts.


I'm not sure why someone would make a Curse that could not fulfill one of its core functions in a small gang. I usually assume that a ship has more than a minute of cap to run its primary armament.

Any decent small gang should be able to scrape together a pair of logistics, and that is where the Curse truly shines. If you have no logistics at all, then it is naturally difficult to compete with equal-sized gangs which do have logistics support, but that would be the case if the enemy had any type of e-war, or if the enemy had bigger/more expensive ships. Again, in a small gang you should be able to scrape together two or three logistics boats, and the deficit in logistics compared with the opposition can be made up via e-war and other methods. Since it is not very difficult to train for or fly a logistics ship, there's no real reason why you'd never be able to field at least logistics in any reasonable fleet.


The complaint was that logistics could sit beyond engagement range; I provided a counter for such situations. If the Guardian is hugging the fleet, then it is within engagement range and can be shot at. And it will still be vulnerable to sensor dampeners, which will reduce its effective range. Most fleets spread out during an engagement. This is especially true for small and medium gangs, such as the ones you seem to be focusing on. Sensor dampeners are not a magical perfect counter to logistics, but in this game there is no such thing for any ship or tactic.

As far as "ship bloat," a single Lachesis will work wonders if you're in a small gang, unless all your fleet members absolutely refuse to fly anything but DPS. If we're discussing small gangs, then odds are the opposition will not have more than two or three logistics, and one Lachesis or Falcon can take one or two of those logistics out for a good portion of the fight. Or, once again, ask fleet members to fit e-war modules. Also, good small gangs, and good fleets in general will have several specialist ships, including ECM, logistics, long points, light tackle, etc. Just because your fleet members refuse to take on those roles does not mean that they are not useful, or that they are "invalid" counters to a given ship or tactic. Sensor dampeners also work on other ships, so even if the opposition has no logistics, sensor dampening ships will be able to take out several dps ships.



The complaint was about signature radius and logistics being difficult to hit. A scimitar sitting 100km away from the fleet it is supposed to be supporting is useless, since its maximum effective remote repair range is 71km. A logistics can potentially sit behind the fleet it is supporting, but in practice this is difficult to achieve, especially when two mobile fleets are involved. In practice most logistics will stay close to the main fleet, and thus should be within engagement range. If the enemy brings a snipe HAC fleet, that engagement range will be rather long, but that is a different issue which has little to do with logistics.