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[Proposal] CSM Member Real Life Names

First post
Author
Pixxie Twilight
#81 - 2012-03-31 22:07:31 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Tonight I listened to Eve Radio where the CSM spoke about The Mittani Scandal and then The Mittani and Nyphur talked about the consequences and fallout of associating real life name with overly sensationalist terms. The conversation was much less dramatic than I expected and I'm very thankful that Nyphur was so willing to work with The Mittani. Eventually they even made up and almost e-hugged. How cute.

However, there's an important take away to be had here: what could have been a story about a drunk mostly anonymous ******* making an exceptionally stupid comment at Fanfest became so much more because of the use of a real name. The news elements fed off of each other with all making various untrue allegations towards not The Mittani - but the player behind The Mittani. And really, this is hardly the first time that someone's real life name has come up in terms of their actions on the CSM - for instance there are several people who have been accused (but not "convicted") of breaking the NDA and now their real life is similarly affected. So effectively: the use of a real name takes things to the next level. And this is going to be true any time someone's real life name is used - whether that person is The Mittani, Jade Constantine, Liang Nuren, or yours.

At any rate, at the end of the show, someone posted The Mittani's real life address and someone else said they were headed that way to **** The Mittani's wife. This isn't the first time I've seen something like this said, but I've learned a lot about the way CCP handles it since the last time I saw it so directly. And just to be clear: CCP takes these threats very seriously and I wouldn't be surprised if someone's received a visit from their local law enforcement tonight.

So with all of this in mind, I believe that the CSM white paper should be amended in such a way that the CSM candidates (and eventual CSM members) real names and countries of origin are not given to the player base as a whole - but strictly to CCP. The real life information of current CSM members is already available, but that's no reason for future members to potentially be put in similar real life situations.

We as a player community have proven that we are not responsible enough, not mature enough, and not sane enough to be trusted with this information and this proposal is meant to help our upcoming CSM candidates - those whose real names aren't known yet. Maybe even people like you.

-Liang


/signed

because if it's true that real life candidate names and addresses are now being circulated in a way that could result in violence against candidates/their families, that should raise concern.

If I was a brat, I'd ask whether the real life candidate information was circulated by posters using their own real life names, or if they were hiding behind anonymous internet identities. Posting disagreeable or potentially threatening material anonymously can be seen as a calculated way to avoid accountability.

For all we know, CCP & the CSM may already be thinking along similar lines.

Re this whole panel drama, part of being human is making mistakes and then having to take responsibility, make things right with any injured party, accept whatever punishment comes down, and then with those things done, to be being allowed to move on better and wiser than before. I'd want the same for myself, so I'm hoping this community settles down soon. I've been avoiding forums with all the neverending rage and bickering. That's all I have on this.

Pixxie T
>^^<

(Viva Small Alliances!!)

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Richard Bong
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-03-31 22:15:09 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
You dont want to give up your name, dont run for CSM.

You run more risk of being harassed on facebook then you do being on the CSM.

Any IRL harassment that may occur on can easily be taken care of by the local authorities and a petition to CCP.

Most of the fallout and continued fallout can be laid squarely at Mittens feet.

That Eve Radio stunt was pathetic. Next time try having someone one with an opposing view point that wasnt bullied into changing his tune on. It was nothing but propagandist fluff by cheerleaders.



Oh so things like people threatening to kill his dog and posting his home address can easily be solved by a petition to CCP and the local authorities... Because so far CCP hasn't done much to help with that (other than banning that creepy kid which was handled well imo) because they can't police off site stuff and since this is international, townie cops aren't going to help much.
You know what would solve this problem before it becomes one? Not having his name out there.

What is gained by having the name of the panel out there?

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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#83 - 2012-03-31 22:36:01 UTC
Supported.

I don't think their real names are relevant to the position.
Ayla Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2012-03-31 23:43:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayla Hanaya
/signed

Totally support this, bringing someones real life location and information into the public eye is serious business, and while what Mittani did wasn't right, what others did to him with the threats of violence and other "retribution" were even less right. Responding with an "Eye for an Eye" attitude is not right. Sure you can kill someone repeatedly in game and generally make their in-game life suck, but the instant you take that into RL, you have crossed that thin red line. and you should be dealt with swiftly and to the fullest extent of the law, one might even say cold-calling someone and delivering a death threat is a "terroristic Threat" There is a clear separation between the game and RL, it should never be crossed.

Legal definition of a Terroristic Threat

Chapter 42, classification of Offenses, Penalties; Delaware

All states have a law that is pretty much a carbon copy of this, but basically, a Terroristic Threat is a FELONY, and is punishable by up to $25,000 in fines and up to 2 years in a state penitentiary(sp?) and a notation for a felony on your criminal record, try to get a good job with a felony on your record. Also most crimes that would land you with a felony tie into other criminal charges, I.E getting charged with Terroristic Threats is a Class G felony, and also nets you a charge for a Class A misdemeanor, which is up to a year in class V incarceration and up to $2,300 in fines along with your felony charge/sentence.

Think before you decide to take something from in game to the real world, kiddies.

Edit: posted info to back up first paragraph
Banderlei Shiiba
SSAP KG
#85 - 2012-03-31 23:51:19 UTC
Ugleb wrote:
I generally agree with the need for caution, but I do have one issue with this, and it might even be the reason why CCP chose to publish names in the first place, I dunno.

If the real names off applicants are removed from the process, doesn't that increase the chance of a player with a poor reputation using an alt to run for the CSM?

There may be players who would not vote for a certain candidate because of a past action (say The Mittani) or because of a poltical association (a certain alliance etc) but who would vote for his publicly unknown alt that is 'untainted' by a colourful past.

While revealing a real world identity could be abused, it also helps to identify individual players from largely anonymous character identities that can be legitimately bought or sold.

If real names were removed from the process, there should be another means of identifying players beyond the character name they choose to compete with.


Well, CCP will still always have the RL info (it's a necessity, due to the requirement of passport copies as proof of ability to travel to Iceland), so it wouldn't be difficult to include info like "ran preivously as (old character)", or "(character name) has been sold to a new player". It's a bit more work for whoever handles it (though not much), but it's hugely preferred to publicly releasing RL details.

That said I don't really see that being a problem ANYWAY, as anonymity is pretty much your worst enemy in something like this. Take a look at Darius III for example - he's certainly not someone known for positive things in his previous term, yet because his name was known, because he made his presence felt and used actual things he had done (or not done) as a hook to have people talk about him, he managed to get elected. Had he just rolled an anonymous alt to run again, he wouldn't have any of that to grab anyone's attention, and he'd probably be somewhere in Xenuria territory votes-wise.
Yuki 0nna
The White Rose Conventicle
#86 - 2012-04-01 00:30:00 UTC
Posting of The Mittani's real life address is harassment (invitation to mischief) beyond anything he said or did at Fanfest.

Threat to his wife is no joke. Can never tell who is a sick joker and who is truly deranged, but that's not for CCP or any of us to sort out. That's for the police to investigate.

But just as in RL, if you want to run for any kind of office, it's not unreasonable to require that you give up some of your expectation of privacy and that you accept greater responsibility for all your words and actions.

You are going to speak for us, be one of our public faces. We should know and be able to verify who you are, not your in-game persona. Your in-game self may be a villain; your real-life self honorable. But it might also be the other way around.

Many good reasons not to want that kind of scrutiny. Some bad. Either case, don't stand for office.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2012-04-01 00:55:08 UTC  |  Edited by: RougeOperator
Yuki 0nna wrote:
Posting of The Mittani's real life address is harassment (invitation to mischief) beyond anything he said or did at Fanfest.

Threat to his wife is no joke. Can never tell who is a sick joker and who is truly deranged, but that's not for CCP or any of us to sort out. That's for the police to investigate.

But just as in RL, if you want to run for any kind of office, it's not unreasonable to require that you give up some of your expectation of privacy and that you accept greater responsibility for all your words and actions.

You are going to speak for us, be one of our public faces. We should know and be able to verify who you are, not your in-game persona. Your in-game self may be a villain; your real-life self honorable. But it might also be the other way around.

Many good reasons not to want that kind of scrutiny. Some bad. Either case, don't stand for office.



Exactly, this is either a knee jerk reaction or more liang being a propaganda shill for the mittani. The suggesting is short sighted and silly.

These people represent all of the players. You know the risks of losing the anonymity shield going in. We cannot and should not have people with that kind of shield to hide behind making input calls into development cycles.

They are still elected representatives. I want to know the man as much as the character he uses in game when i vote for them. The IRL person matters more to me then their characters. I cant get and honest gauge of jack crap about a person if they are hiding behind their avatar and the persona of the avatar.

Knowing the real person matters.

People act very different when they think they are Anons.

When Voting for a CSM rep, you should be voting for the person. Not the character they play in game. Since that person is the one that will be making the calls and giving input. Not the character.

This suggesting is just crazy.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **

Banderlei Shiiba
SSAP KG
#88 - 2012-04-01 01:11:27 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
Knowing the real person matters.
.


Having their real name isn't knowing them at all, and if you believe that for a second, then you have a learning disability.
Richard Bong
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-04-01 01:23:58 UTC
You talk about this like it is real life politics. This is spaceship politics, all this talk about "accountability" has an underlying implication of revenge or consequences. If something illegal happens then CCP has the name anyway. There should be no way for a player to be harassed out of game using info from CCP, they shouldn't be forced to mix their eve personalities and real life to be on the player council.
In game stuff needs to stay in game.

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None ofthe Above
#90 - 2012-04-01 01:50:53 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
RougeOperator wrote:



Exactly, this is either a knee jerk reaction or more liang being a propaganda shill for the mittani. The suggesting is short sighted and silly.

These people represent all of the players. You know the risks of losing the anonymity shield going in. We cannot and should not have people with that kind of shield to hide behind making input calls into development cycles.

They are still elected representatives. I want to know the man as much as the character he uses in game when i vote for them. The IRL person matters more to me then their characters. I cant get and honest gauge of jack crap about a person if they are hiding behind their avatar and the persona of the avatar.

Knowing the real person matters.

People act very different when they think they are Anons.

When Voting for a CSM rep, you should be voting for the person. Not the character they play in game. Since that person is the one that will be making the calls and giving input. Not the character.

This suggesting is just crazy.


Your bias is showing.

While I can sympathize with not being pro-goon, I think the benefit you get from requiring disclosure is almost negligible. You as a voter could of course decide to only vote for candidates who disclose.

The rest should sort itself out fine.

As far as crazy, I saw you on twitter raging along and then defending someone posting Mittani's real life address. (Or where you defending the guy who threatened to sexually assault his wife? Or are you that guy?)

Do you also defend Spike Lee's actions posting that address of that couple named Zimmerman recently? Would you have if it had been the right Zimmerman?

One wonders why you hate the goons so much considering your own goonish behavior. I think you are overdue for a long hard look in the mirror.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Choc talar
Blazing Capsules
Brave Collective
#91 - 2012-04-01 02:35:52 UTC
/signed
Stirko Hek
New Home Industries
#92 - 2012-04-01 02:56:16 UTC
/signed.

One has to wonder why certain parties are so desperate to have public, real life information on people from EVE, people who have either sparked controversy or are in positions such as the CSM.

This adds a very scary, stalkish feel to the EVE playing atmosphere. One in which we must be fearful for real life retribution in the form of threats or even someone carrying them through (seriously, what's to stop someone just finding this info, go to the address and take action in some violent, malicious way?). People might say Goons are horrible, they eat children, punch pregnant mothers, etc. But I've never heard one threaten someone in a violent, real life way, only in ways that involve violencing their spaceships.

There is no reason I need to know any of the CSM's real names. Nor anyone else outside CCP.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2012-04-01 02:58:23 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
You know the risks of losing the anonymity shield going in.


And what justifies that risk?

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Bergon Darek
#94 - 2012-04-01 04:04:40 UTC
In my opinion, anonymity for CSM candidates won't work.

At the end of the day, toons are pixels on a screen. The people on the CSM are the players, the people behind the toons. Since those people are representing the players as a whole to CCP, the players need to know who the people behind the toons are, because (in most cases) those people are very different from the toons they play.

Not signed.
Richard Bong
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-04-01 04:12:57 UTC
Bergon Darek wrote:
In my opinion, anonymity for CSM candidates won't work.

At the end of the day, toons are pixels on a screen. The people on the CSM are the players, the people behind the toons. Since those people are representing the players as a whole to CCP, the players need to know who the people behind the toons are, because (in most cases) those people are very different from the toons they play.

Not signed.


And how does you having his name make that person come out?

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Uronksur Suth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2012-04-01 04:40:51 UTC
I don't support this. If someone wants to be among the few representing the entire player-base, and have such perks as an all-expense paid trip to Iceland, they can do us the courtesy of revealing such basic information as their name and country of residence. For me, it is more the principle here. I could maybe get behind striking their country, but not their name. I think running for CSM should involve opening up to the playerbase enough to share their real name.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2012-04-01 05:12:01 UTC
Uronksur Suth wrote:
I don't support this. If someone wants to be among the few representing the entire player-base, and have such perks as an all-expense paid trip to Iceland, they can do us the courtesy of revealing such basic information as their name and country of residence. For me, it is more the principle here. I could maybe get behind striking their country, but not their name. I think running for CSM should involve opening up to the playerbase enough to share their real name.


I wouldn't call attending meetings in Iceland, a country whose only real attraction for tourism is fishing, a "perk."

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#98 - 2012-04-01 05:33:09 UTC
Uronksur Suth wrote:
I don't support this. If someone wants to be among the few representing the entire player-base, and have such perks as an all-expense paid trip to Iceland, they can do us the courtesy of revealing such basic information as their name and country of residence. For me, it is more the principle here. I could maybe get behind striking their country, but not their name. I think running for CSM should involve opening up to the playerbase enough to share their real name.


Let me quote a piece of the OP here, because I think it really addresses your objection on the basis of courtesy nicely:

Quote:

... We as a player community have proven that we are not responsible enough, not mature enough, and not sane enough to be trusted with this information ...


-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#99 - 2012-04-01 07:05:16 UTC
I support this idea. While it won't matter much to those of us serving currently, this is certianly something that, in light of recent events, is going to be discussed with CCP by the members of CSM 7.

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Richard Bong
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-04-01 07:19:18 UTC
Its the people who think having the name out there will keep them "accountable", with the underlying implication that in game things will be met with out of game reprisals. As if the names are leverage for a disgruntled player. Those are the people who genuinely worry me, and I imagine the CSM members feel the same. Some of you are creepy/unbalanced ******* people.

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