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Industrial core for the Orca and a new Production/ Laboratory Ship class - I have a dream.
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CF Jones
Trans Universe - Secure Services Industries
#1 - 2012-03-29 19:44:32 UTC  |  Edited by: CF Jones
i have a dream , making EVE more interessting for adventurer and explorer


First step would be a refining core used in a highslot at the Orca.
This Industrial core might give the ship the possibillity to refine a small amount of ore the owner has in his orehangar

I'm thinking about a capacity half as the small refining array used in POS and a balanced efficency to this

For using this, the Orca might sacrifice one of the 7 corphangar and a amount of volume to save a "fuel" in it -maybe any type of posfuelblocks.
The amount of fuel should make the orca able to run the refinnig array 29 day's - so this mechanic might be copied from small towers

YES! thats not cheap. but what for using this?

Part 2
A new Industrial ship which might be as big as the orca , but PLEASE design a more FAT ship like the rorqual or some glued battleships.
Whats the point oif it?
The industrie ship should be able to fit 2 slots with laboratory OR productionslot. so will be 3 mix possible
( 2 laboratory, 2 production or 1+1 each
Also this ship must have a fuel to run it - and of course 29 day's like a tower. i..e. with a need of the ammount of a medium tower fuelblocks of any race to keep it simple. a maintenance hangar is needed too.might be same as Orca or a little bigger. ( 1Hulk+1BC)

Both ships might be able to get into highsec and through gates. This will give a chance to people who have no base or friends in null or low to start these explorations.
Both should work in highsec space too. On rules to highsec towers the running of the industrial slots might take the charter of any race too - depending to, in who's space you tun on your private base


and now scenario:

some tough guy's go through space with their mobile industry ships . refining orca and production. cloaking is needed to get behind the hostile lines. building a base and droping their mining barges to find resources,build ing more ships,and than, later a rorqual or mothership come s to the position of this base... the population increases through the clonevat bay

live were no one expects you to live. find some wormholes and through these space behind the long-established alliances

build a base without gaining sovereignty. be cloaked , and invisible in space someone holds fallow


so- who will turn this wheel?

CF Jones
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-03-29 20:08:27 UTC
I would love to see more mining ships, and better ones too, but if what you described is allowed in high sec the rorqual becomes completely worthless, if it is not, the rorqual already fills that role. Great idea though

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Alberik
Eusebius Corporation
#3 - 2012-03-29 20:49:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Alberik
i like the idea .. but to make refining arrays at poses worth something you either have to give the ship a horrible slow refining speed or a horrible low efficency as mentioned.
also there is the problem of the ship warping away after leaving the client. this takes away the danger of your expensive ore getting popped while offline.

same goes with the lab-ship.

you cant take away "one of the 7 corphangar", there is only one corphangar but seven divisions which share the hold.

so your proposal is nothing but a very small pos, you dont have to anchor and which warps away while offline.

for the scenario: just move a single stealth bomber or recon into your destination, bring in some friends via covert cynos/covert jumpbridges. place your pos, do your operation. a pos can go much longer unnoticed than a player - so your ships dont have any real role not covered by other means which we know to work.
CF Jones
Trans Universe - Secure Services Industries
#4 - 2012-03-29 21:54:42 UTC  |  Edited by: CF Jones
thanks for both comments

for the refining: maybe technology makes a step forward and the mobile refining can be done on same quallity as small refining array
off course- the new technology is terrible expensive - but the great advantage vs. dropping a small pos is: no moon needed, and mobility

Worth paying the cost might be , that the refiniing or research/ production is continued while the ship loges off


if i search someone, scan for POS i know it has to be near a moon. this ship can be anywhere
additional
afaik alliances who claimes sovereignty get a mail about an anchored POS and ( smile) the position
The ship will not be announced


comparing to the rorqual : afaik the rorqual compresses ore , but is not able to refine
rorqual saves space for transports on large amounts, the "new" idea is making the ship able doing refining to a usable mineral for production
i dont think the rorqual will lose her role. the orca will lose a highslot for the refining and will be as before much smaller than the rorqual.
the rorqual might be a usefull support to this ship - if it's able to hadle compressed ore too
worth thinking about
the difference in capacity between rorqual and new ships will save rorqual it's place in miners heart
(edit: the clonevat bay in the scenario had to come with the rorqual or supercarrier- this should be not part of the orca or the new industrieship)

second thing might be : a installed cloackingdevice steals another highslot ( less bonus slots again) but makes the ship "smaller" for scanners. this penalty may make it hard to scan down as a heron or other small friggs - and of course invisible if cloacking is activ.

this bonus will not effect tha ships arround :) so if scouts are effective all ships which are docked to maintenance bay are in a friggate sized scanobject.

why not bring a new technology to EVE Miners exclusively. we had many staps of new accepted technologies in eve : T3 ships, the new BC and different "balancing" as the hybrid turret issue.
its time for mining technology to get pushed.


the problem of the corphangar and space for fuel: some technicans might find solutions- i have a vision

( penalty for cargospace may result at least through the fact the fuel has to be in " shipcargo" - so this space will be used by fuel and give the penalty automatic

hope on more readers joining and discuss the idea

plz show interest on mining and industry ships. we got new ships to build ( BC class last) but we need to make this part of eve more value

players have much more ISK in game than ever- noone needs starting a mining carreer to gain ISK but some will go for it if mining and industry have exciting ships and possibilities

also this is a part of EVE - even many PPL smile on non combat toons

let us create something the fightchars turn pale


CF Jones
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-03-29 22:57:42 UTC
1. Mining will become more interesting if/when botters get taken care of.
2. An alternative might be operating from WH with a nullsec static. The masslimit saves you pos from being taken down while you get to mine in deep space. (or just mine your own WH)
CF Jones
Trans Universe - Secure Services Industries
#6 - 2012-03-31 16:12:30 UTC  |  Edited by: CF Jones
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
1. Mining will become more interesting if/when botters get taken care of.


thanks fo your comment.

first point is an argument that makes the market feel mining people are surplus.
but bots are not the point making people go other ways. its just a point for advanced gamers who understand thismechanic and abuse the game. its a ISK-machine
bots are not interessted in a story, fleetoperations and FUN in game.
the tritanium price reaches highest niveau i remember since 6 years, ( maybe someone know exactly)
-> so bots are not really influence the decission to do mining "on my own"

the descission to go for a miner carreer will be done at the beginnning of the game - and loses (imho) because other careers are much more exciting and at least immens more profitable.
mining is not needed to get first ships, ISK or FUN.

at least: the "FUN" is what mining perspectives are missing.
the hulk and the orca and rorqual are the highlights in a miner carrere. after this is just nothing
mining = you dont get rich, you will have no real perspectives in high after the orca and nothing bigger as a rorqual ever.
a mining carrrer have 3 steps:
after 51 day's you get your hulk

after 68 day's you get your orca

after 115 day's you get your rorqual

191 day's tells me my evemon to handle these all comfortable

THATS LESS THAN 1 Year even if i add some suporting skills to get nearly perfect
end off career


just "sit in" a titan is more ( 196 days) and without using it (exept you feel suicide.

a straight career to a carrier ( which is much cheaper as a rorqual) is about 18 month to handle (semi) professional, and includes many ships you can use beside. there are much more possibilities doing this carreer even if you never have a chance to fly a carrier see a carrier from inside or in your rearview-mirror. ... not talking about supercarrieres..
not talking about status of these pilots in game

any well trained combat pilot has many ships to train in this time and have fun hunting, exploring, doing missions and all ths pvp stuff

a minng career has.... learning skills. and after this you are poor. and allways just the victim for ostensible "bot hunting" killers, hulkageddon and some suicide ganker
why not giving bigger mining ships 10 or 15 drones ? why not include more range for these drone
why not giving the rorqual 5 fighters ? ( ok i take back. the rorqual is as the rorqual is. but why not doing this to a new 0.0 mining ops ship.
why will a miner not be able to learn "defensive tactics" skills - which make him able to double effects of his defensive tank modules on ships or offensive tactics to increase damage on drones , launched from a miningbarge or exhumer

yes i love mining , i asked years ago why a miner is NOT able to gain standing on corporations just by doing continous refining on their station. a loyal miner is worth getting standing with the corp he supportes.

just doing his job. without need to go for missions. without need to shoot someone. done again :)
back to topic:

Lunkwill Khashour wrote:

2. An alternative might be operating from WH with a nullsec static. The masslimit saves you pos from being taken down while you get to mine in deep space. (or just mine your own WH)


second point discribes scenario which are to possible without doubt but which dont help the point: more interesting ships for miner and industrial career. and sorry i'm bring in this point: we are in board "ships and modules" so we are talking about a new module and a new ship an not about avoidance of learning new skills and spending ISK to new ships.


i will come back again to the main argument:

- the refining slot and the new industy ship are M O B I L E , claiming and needing no sovereignty.
( exept in case of use in highsec donating a race-charter if in use

- mobility and a tactical advantage will make the ship a worth going way and investment
- highsec miner will be able to have outpost in systems were no stations are, and will not have to gain standings t
thousands of corps ( time factor against carrere and spending ISK in a ship

-low and nullsec user will be better in defensive shelter and will not get published by anchoring a tower in claimed system
and have a advantage beeing mobile, and not on places towers are fixed: moons


CF Jones
CF Jones
Trans Universe - Secure Services Industries
#7 - 2012-03-31 16:47:04 UTC  |  Edited by: CF Jones
because both in one reached max.size of posts i had to add this as a reply :

resume points to the new items:

orca might hava a highslot using module for refining
goals are:
- refining on a mobile base
-refining same quality as small refining array in POS
-same cost as a small tower ( fuel-blocks any race accepted) max 29 days without refill
- beside using this the cloakingdevice might decrease the signatur radius to frigg size
-Refining modul may can use compressed ore? ( so size of capacity schould be optimized to compressed blocks)

- role of the rorqual not touched as booster and store ( compression)

-penalty :
- fuel has to be in shiphangar - so this decreases by being filled with fuelblocks
- orca looses 2 highslots by using these modules in synergy. so just 1 slot left for flleet supporting link
- materials are refined from ore hangar to ship hangar- do orca can get filled up further, but need space in shiphangar for ready minerals.


the new industry ship might be

-sized as the orca, but looking a little "bigger" (design issues
-able to fit 2 special module
- Labormodul - supporting a laborslot as known from station and mobile lab
- Productionmodul - supporting productions of any ship modul and ship- maybe up to BS sized in range to the ship (500m)
and smaller inside the ship
- able to launch drone
- able to launch more drones ( using a special skill or modul to increase this
- able to double defense by a new skill" defensive tactics"- just for industrialships and miningbarges
- able to increase drone damage by using new skill " ofensive tactics"- just for indu,mining ..
- low signaturradius if cloakingdevice is fitte
- research and production inside ship continously as logged off/ in war
-building BS outside in range ship is handicaped, bs is not visible, shelter of industryship, warping will lose outside structure
in build
- able to fly through gates and wormhole
- shiphangar sized 1 exhumer + 1 BC so might be 500.000m or (1 BS ? or BS are not accessing the maintenance?)
- corphangar ? or just a bigger productionhangar ( production materials only?)
- ?


discussion up again


i edit/ add some thoughts:

in 0.0 miners are badly needed, miners cant defend their self, miners dont fight for home, miners dont pay % of a gain automatical like a ratter does. miners make work, but bring low effects to 0.0 alliances.
they are needed and just accepted to bring minerals to build more combatvessels. miners...sucks.
provocating. yes
why not making the new ship powerfull in defence to, and doing the drone "upgrades , more dornes , more damage to drones launched by barges, exhumers and industrial ships?
Why not making BC lvl3 a basic skill for this new ship? so miners automatic have learned a vessel to fight for home def. the argument is: you will have mor fightpower on your miningship- so you have to learn some skills to handle that. i.e same as a brutix pilot need for his drone ship.
you want fighters on your rorqulal ( not really) but on your new industrial sjip: so learn fighters and the skills which support the fightes at a carrier. nothing is free , but also killing miners might not be free and without risk.
Heun zero
MAYHEM BOYZ
#8 - 2012-03-31 17:04:52 UTC
I think you're basic idea, has some merit at least. But oviously it needs to be tweaked some. But hey thats whats game designers or developers or whatever you call those people are for.

You do however seem to be missing some basics of the mechanics involved in mining. You say that bots haven't really got anything to do with masking mining more unattractive, yet you say that mining doesnt make you rich.

Every market in eve is cmpetetive, some a bit more then others, but for every item players are competing against each other to seel there stuff. Thus if the market is flooded the price goes down. Bots add to flooding the market and thus driving the price down, and thus contribute to making mining a more unattractive profession in eve.

The same holds true for creating more effecient mining ships. Because they allow players to mine more minerals the price of the minerals goes down so it doesnt necesarily mean you'll be making more ISK if CCP releases any 'better' mining ships.

Eve is in need of some loving on the mining /industry / research side of things so keep up the idea's
CF Jones
Trans Universe - Secure Services Industries
#9 - 2012-03-31 17:30:09 UTC
Heun zero wrote:
....

You do however seem to be missing some basics of the mechanics involved in mining. You say that bots haven't really got anything to do with masking mining more unattractive, yet you say that mining doesnt make you rich.

Every market in eve is cmpetetive, ...

The same holds true for creating more effecient mining ships. Because they allow players to mine more minerals the price of the minerals goes down so it doesnt necesarily mean you'll be making more ISK if CCP releases any 'better' mining ships.

Eve is in need of some loving on the mining /industry / research side of things so keep up the idea's



i agree in your "competitive market" issue. off course bots influence market.
and this makes miners loosing attractive perspectives.


rich... is relative depending to the compared amount. miners are poor getting 4-10 mio/h compares with lvl 4 missions getting 20-40m including loot and salvage easy.
miners are poor refine in 0.0 perfect skilled 11 -20 mio/h compared to plexing and ratting pilots gaining 20 mio ticks = 60-100mio /h or explorers who find modules and bpc worth billions.
off course a miner can gain enough to replace lost ships and have some m or after years b in reserve.

i absolutly follow your "Eve is in need of some loving on the mining /industry / research side of things so keep up the idea's"

eve's goal was and might be firther: not beeing a simple pvp game. its much more complex as other games and adicts non combat people as well. but this topic was going down for many months ,maybe 1 or 2 years.
fighting became more and more value, all other carrers were neglected a bit.

eve might find and reach a new zenith again.
CF Jones
Trans Universe - Secure Services Industries
#10 - 2012-04-03 20:37:59 UTC
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28581

i take this blog to push my post once up again.
believing this new eden will be cleaned up and bot mining will be history soon.

i really like this effort,

i use it to take position again:

mining needs more interessting , exciting ships. my idea may have some hooks but the way will be the right.

last orders please: take position and write in here.

i will not push the post again without any comments from other players.

no- i'm not miffed.

if noone like this idea - i go for a new idea making mining a worth career.
Onyx Roc
Black Wolves Mercenary Company
Weaponized - Autism
#11 - 2012-04-04 02:15:22 UTC
I for one like the idea of expanding interest in mining/indy/research. The complexity of EVE is what got me into it. I started out as a miner but dropped it after about a month because of how slow isk making was, the skills needed to be even get a moderate income is forever compared to PvP, where a newbie in a frigate can join a gang as tackle after less than a week of training. And as Jones said before, after getting the hulk/orca/roqual line done there's nothing left to train for, nothing good to look forward to or cross train into except freighters; and who wants to spend their time flying around in one of the slowest ships in the game?

Ok, i'm going to get off my soapbox before i hurt myself.

In other news; in the eve keynote @ fanfest one of the devs(if i remember correctly it was soundwave) was talking about him would rather have a 10 man gang of miners go out to mine than have a huge alliance buy plex to pay for a titan. Anyway, this was said in the same topic of introducing something along the lines of mining Incursions i.e. group mining operations. It was mentioned that moon materials might be a reward for doing this. I'm too lazy to go actually find where it was but hey, CCP is at least thinking about you indies out there.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#12 - 2012-04-04 05:41:13 UTC
I'd be in favor of giving Industrial Ships a module that will allow them to refine ore, as I believe they were originally intended to do (hence the really high cpu on that ship class.)

I'd also like to see a sort of science vessel. I'd give it a bonus to hacking/archeology, and a couple of built-in research/manufacturing slots. It's doable, and very interesting.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Silverion Leblanc
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-04-04 13:45:18 UTC
+1 for the idea, it would be nice to have a nomadic gameplay, not having to dock in stations, especially in null and wh space since its so empty space.

right now the Rorqual serves only as storage, compression and clone vat. we need also:

-a refining and maybe manufacturing ship

-a science vessel which allows for hacking/archeology and maybe invention options

-a ship which acts as a movile vendor, like a freighter but haves market options

maybe add some ideas for repariring platforms and other support ships for warfaring, the idea is to have a whole convoy of ships which act as a whole station with all the capabilities.....