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Skill Discussions

 
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The only thing this game needs.

Author
Azemar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-03-30 03:55:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Azemar
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but i'm going to play devil's advocate here:

A way to actively train skills.

god i love this game, it's so beautiful. Internet spaceships couldn't get better, but a way to actively train skills would seriously be the icing on the cake. The only qualm i have ever had with this game is the fact that i cannot do anything to make a skill train faster. Who loses with this? More active players are better, less active aren't.

Make activities that train a skill, such as a mini-game, a test maybe. Make these cost isk so you still have to go out into the world, and do everything.

Maybe add in whenever you're doing an activity that directly relates to your current skill, it amplifies the training time. This would further implore you to go out into the world.

Thoughts/Criticisms?
Dr Caymus
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
#2 - 2012-03-30 04:51:56 UTC
Such a system existed for a very brief time early in the game's history. In-game activities had the effect of modestly accelerating the rate at which certain skills were increased. The feature was removed from the game at least in part because it was being exploited: people used automated means to repeat the various activities that augmented skill growth. Therein lies concern number one. Is it possible to implement a system like this so that it is "bot-proof"?

The second concern that comes to mind has to do with one of the original game design concepts (and perhaps another reason for the original feature's quick removal). One of the goals behind the use of "real-time" training rates was to create an environment in which casual players could keep pace with "power gamers" in accumulating skills. A player with the time and motivation to play hours daily did not have the ability to quickly level up to a significant advantage over a weekend warrior. Interestingly, implementation of a system that avoided that issue in the game's early days ultimately led to the opposite issue in today's mature game: newer players, no matter how hard they play, can not catch up to the skill levels of veteran players.

The second concern could probably be addressed through the mechanics of how skills are augmented through in-game activities. One way would be to limit the amount of time in any given day/week/month that activities augment skill growth, or diminish the effectiveness of the activity on skill growth as the activity continues over an extended time. Another might be to diminish the effectiveness of the activity on sklll growth as the skill approaches higher levels.

A third concern, also coming from original game design, and one that is of popular current debate, is the notion that EVE is intended to be a long-term game, not a game of instant gratification. I have mixed feelings on this one... I buy into the long-term game concept, but I also recognize the value of enhancing the game in ways that help promote continued growth in EVE's subscriber base, as that is crucial to the success and survival of the game.

Regardless, skill system issues pose significant challenge to our Development team.
Azemar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-03-30 05:04:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Azemar
Although i cannot speak for programmers, I think any botting program which requires you to do very specific in-game activities would (pardon my language) be a ***** and a half to code, if not impossible depending on the system created.

For your second concern, i think you proved the point by saying that vet players have gotten so good they simply cannot catch up.

Regarding the third concern, even a BIG system. Say something that if done efficiently, it would ramp up training time by 4x or even 5x. I do believe the figure on training every skill is about 23 years. Even with a 5x active multiplier added, the game would still take over 4 years to fully complete. That's not even including the fact that they add more skills per year than you can keep up with! TL;DR even if they enacted a giant system, very few players would ever "complete" the game.


This is a plus to the company as well as the players. Do you even know how many more people would play this game if you could actively train skills? It boggles my mind. Then they could take all that money to make the game better, more content faster, etc.
Pyrosomniac
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-03-30 09:26:44 UTC
I believe that changing the current system, or adding to it, would be a MASSIVE undertaking and would require hundreds of man hours of thought and consideration before you even hit the drawing boards!

I don't think the idea should go and die though. I'd still like to see a skill category that can only be trained through player action. Connections would be an example that in real life would come through your actions, rather than through a book. Diplomacy as well.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-03-30 10:18:05 UTC
dont be an idiot.
it's skill system is the main thing that makes eve better than the dregs of online games wike WOW ect.

There is no Bob.

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Ildryn
Idle Guns.
#6 - 2012-03-30 10:50:06 UTC
The reason vets have a lead is because they started earlier or stayed with it.
It does not take long for a new player to specialize and have some kind of accomplishment.

I maxed out my sub-caps...a new player with the correct mindset could come along and fly a taranis just as well as i can in a couple months.

BTW there was no accelerated learning or lack of learning skills when i started. i got my sp back for the learning skills but would still like to have the double learning time new players get.....for free.
Greg Valanti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-03-30 11:20:33 UTC
Azemar wrote:
Although i cannot speak for programmers, I think any botting program which requires you to do very specific in-game activities would (pardon my language) be a ***** and a half to code, if not impossible depending on the system created.
.


Current bots are incredibly sophisticated and already do very specific in-game activities. That's what makes them a problem.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#8 - 2012-03-30 15:25:00 UTC
Azemar wrote:
I'm sure this has been mentioned before

......

Thoughts/Criticisms?


Yes. Look up the last several times it's been mentioned and try to address the many, many arguments against if you're going to post an idea. That's my criticism.
Azemar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-03-30 17:48:00 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
dont be an idiot.
it's skill system is the main thing that makes eve better than the dregs of online games wike WOW ect.



I never doubted that, but as i said in my OP and my second post, a system that would (overall) increase training by up to 5x assuming 24/7 activity would still make the game about 4.3 years to max out skills, not even taking into consideration how many skills would be added over that period.

This wouldn't impact the games stance at all. Most mmo's you can get the best stuff in literally 1-2 months, but 23 years is a little too much.

TL;DR I have a ship that will take a while to train, I am willing to spend time and isk to training it faster. Give that to me CCP.
Vito Antonio
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-03-30 20:33:23 UTC
Im for active skill training bonus.
Like pay 1.000.000 isk per hour for +50% training speed. 10.000.000 per hour for +75% speed increase and 100.000.000 per hour for +100% speed increase.


Obviously it will in addition solve the isk inflation problem.
FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#11 - 2012-03-30 20:44:21 UTC
If CCP would get 1 monthly subscription paid for free every time some idiot thinks they discovered the solution to Eve without bothering to search or google it....... CCP would be happy.

This is not new, nor news, nor intellectually new or unique.

Eve is fine the way it is. Any other way and most people like me would leave. I have a semi busy real life and Eve allows me to be a productive worker, citizen, husband, cat owner / herder, friend, and human being. Please do not impose something every other MMO already has and that is the primary reason I do not play any of them.
Azemar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-03-30 21:20:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Azemar
FireT wrote:
If CCP would get 1 monthly subscription paid for free every time some idiot thinks they discovered the solution to Eve without bothering to search or google it....... CCP would be happy.

This is not new, nor news, nor intellectually new or unique.

Eve is fine the way it is. Any other way and most people like me would leave. I have a semi busy real life and Eve allows me to be a productive worker, citizen, husband, cat owner / herder, friend, and human being. Please do not impose something every other MMO already has and that is the primary reason I do not play any of them.



I never once claimed it to be new. Please cite me if i did. Although it may be intellectually new if you haven't given it the attention it most surely deserves
And as i said about 3 times now, this change would not in any way change the stance CCP has set for the game. Most mmo's take about 1-2 months on even mediocre time to basically beat the game. Even with a giant active system in place, it would still take 4-5 years (playing 24/7, meaning still like 10 years) to train everything. Are you so set in your ways you cannot see the win-win of this?

There is no lose situation. It's an economic "free lunch". Older players are still better and can stay better easily. This just makes the game friendlier to people willing to put in more time.
Azemar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-03-30 21:24:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Azemar
Vito Antonio wrote:
Im for active skill training bonus.
Like pay 1.000.000 isk per hour for +50% training speed. 10.000.000 per hour for +75% speed increase and 100.000.000 per hour for +100% speed increase.


Obviously it will in addition solve the isk inflation problem.



I would like this as well, but not necessarily the entire system. It would tremendously benefit players who are willing to put actual money into the game, and leave those who aren't in the dust. But i agree, a system like that would be definitely doable.

For a main system i would like something along the lines of:

If you are using your turrets, you get a 5x bonus to that turrets skill training for the next 20 minutes, and every time you fire your turrets it resets to 20 minutes again. (or rather a static amount per shot)

Then add mini-games you can play both in space and in stations (maybe even on a mobile device) that add a static amount of SP to whatever you're training.
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-03-30 22:59:26 UTC
Azemar wrote:
[quote=Jack Miton]TL;DR I have a ship that will take a while to train, I am willing to spend time and isk to training it faster. Give that to me CCP.


Buy a character with the skills you want. See, it's already in the game.

This will never happen anyway. I would much rather be playing EVE than grinding boring activities for skills, which is what you are forcing upon us all by effectively saying you will train at 1/5 speed unless you grind these activities. No thanks, grindquest is ------> way
Azemar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-03-30 23:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Azemar
Vaal Erit wrote:
Azemar wrote:
[quote=Jack Miton]TL;DR I have a ship that will take a while to train, I am willing to spend time and isk to training it faster. Give that to me CCP.


Buy a character with the skills you want. See, it's already in the game.

This will never happen anyway. I would much rather be playing EVE than grinding boring activities for skills, which is what you are forcing upon us all by effectively saying you will train at 1/5 speed unless you grind these activities. No thanks, grindquest is ------> way



You're the one that develops the "well now everyone is doing 1/5th the speed" mentality. You are still passively training all the skills, but you have the option to do these activities to further benefit you. CCP has to understand that as long as they have this exact setup, they are limiting their player base. As long as it takes 23+ years to train everything (and there's nothing you can do about it) it will stay nearly where it is right now. And these activities, if done properly, would not constitute grinding. You would have multiple different activities, and also the passive multiplier i mentioned while doing those activities. That kind of system would make you go out and do more.

What could possibly be wrong with a system like this?
Dibblerette
Solitude-Industries
#16 - 2012-03-31 01:58:24 UTC
Azemar wrote:
Vaal Erit wrote:
Azemar wrote:
[quote=Jack Miton]TL;DR I have a ship that will take a while to train, I am willing to spend time and isk to training it faster. Give that to me CCP.


Buy a character with the skills you want. See, it's already in the game.

This will never happen anyway. I would much rather be playing EVE than grinding boring activities for skills, which is what you are forcing upon us all by effectively saying you will train at 1/5 speed unless you grind these activities. No thanks, grindquest is ------> way



You're the one that develops the "well now everyone is doing 1/5th the speed" mentality. You are still passively training all the skills, but you have the option to do these activities to further benefit you. CCP has to understand that as long as they have this exact setup, they are limiting their player base. As long as it takes 23+ years to train everything (and there's nothing you can do about it) it will stay nearly where it is right now. And these activities, if done properly, would not constitute grinding. You would have multiple different activities, and also the passive multiplier i mentioned while doing those activities. That kind of system would make you go out and do more.

What could possibly be wrong with a system like this?


What could people hate about something that basically puts them behind if they don't do a certain activity almost constantly? I don't think the activity thing would ever happen, but the idea of just generally increasing the speed of the skills is interesting. 5x is too much though, as I'm pretty sure a 2 month old pilot could then sit in a mother ship. Also, think what this would do the the existing character market. They'd basically be worth 1/5th of their value. If anything was changed about the skill system, I think a little non-transferable bonus unallocated SP could be given to each character or account on the anniversary of its creation, or birthday.
Azemar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-03-31 02:47:59 UTC
It wouldn't put them behind because everyone is in the same boat. And the character values would not change because the standards would become universal, instead of specific in a given area.

Again i'm just using 5x as a reference point. If i was to really sit down and create a system i would have to look at almost every single statistic in the game. How it would affect isk inflation, player activity, sales, difficulty of the game in PvE, etc etc etc. The list goes on forever. I would never say this is an easy undertaking, i simply believe it's one that is necessary for the longevity of the game.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#18 - 2012-03-31 02:52:40 UTC
Azemar wrote:
It wouldn't put them behind because everyone is in the same boat. And the character values would not change because the standards would become universal, instead of specific in a given area.

Again i'm just using 5x as a reference point. If i was to really sit down and create a system i would have to look at almost every single statistic in the game. How it would affect isk inflation, player activity, sales, difficulty of the game in PvE, etc etc etc. The list goes on forever. I would never say this is an easy undertaking, i simply believe it's one that is necessary for the longevity of the game.


You still haven't looked up any of the older threads, have you?
Azemar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-03-31 03:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Azemar
I have. The issue is never settled in any of them. The logic still points to the active training and someone has yet to present an objective, clear cut, and well-formed argument besides "well we're oldies and we hate it" against this issue.

Let me reiterate i am only using my examples as possible things they may incur. By no means am i saying that the examples i provided is the way to go. All i am trying to say is that CCP needs to make a way to actively train skills so players who are online more get rewarded for it. A more active player deserves to be better or have the potential to be. That's the basics of gameplay and gaming marketing.

Eve trumps almost every other mmo in terms of nearly every aspect of mmorpg gameplay. PvP is actually fun, PvE can be as well and it's dynamic. Expansions are constant and free. CCP is one of the best customer service gaming companies ever. But there's one aspect they do it wrong. In almost every other mmo the time i put into the game directly corresponds to how good my character is. For eve, it's only true in regard to isk/items/ships, etc. There should be a way for me to actively get better as a character, not basically wait 23 years.
stoicfaux
#20 - 2012-03-31 04:19:16 UTC
Azemar wrote:
A more active player deserves to be better or have the potential to be. That's the basics of gameplay and gaming marketing.

Eh, you're thinking about it the wrong way. In traditional MMOs, raising your skills makes your character tougher, e.g. lower level players have trouble hitting a higher level character. Generally speaking, skills in Eve are a means to an end. They don't actually make your character tougher, they just give you more options or help make you more efficient at something.

In Eve, a more active player doesn't deserve to be better. Instead, an Eve player is "better" by becoming better at doing things. Meaning, tactics, organization, and brains make you a better player. Since there are no levels in Eve, being Level 100 in Eve won't save your hauler from a Level 1 player in a basic frigate.


As for raising your skills by active gameplay, it's redundant. Everyone already trains as if they were online 24 hours a day. How can you improve on that?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

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