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Fix Low Sec Mining
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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-03-29 23:11:25 UTC
Currently low sec mining carries, in some light, more risk than 0.0 mining with about half the reward, in most cases if you could field a fleet to mine in low sec, it would be more profitable to mine in null sec, if you couldnt field a nulll sec fleet, and dont want to become pirates yourself by defending your fleet from attacks before you lost any ships you would just stay in high sec. Am i the only one who feels this way or do other miners feel the same?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#2 - 2012-03-29 23:42:20 UTC
(shrugs) if ore prices jump after late-April, you'll have your answer.

The problem is multiple issues:

- mining ships are too fragile to live long enough for the defenders to jam/neut and drive them off

- can't bubble the gates to buy time

- ISK/hr is not much higher then hi-sec due to the way that module drops and drone poo (from the drone regions) have affected mineral prices

- which means you can't afford to pay defenders to stand around and watch for trouble
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-03-29 23:56:39 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
(shrugs) if ore prices jump after late-April, you'll have your answer.

The problem is multiple issues:

- mining ships are too fragile to live long enough for the defenders to jam/neut and drive them off

- can't bubble the gates to buy time

- ISK/hr is not much higher then hi-sec due to the way that module drops and drone poo (from the drone regions) have affected mineral prices

- which means you can't afford to pay defenders to stand around and watch for trouble

These are the problems that neex fixed, glad to see im not the only one who see them

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Vito Tattaglia
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-03-30 00:38:15 UTC
Hi sec mining is the most profit for the risk, unless you're part of a large alliance with access to 0.0. With Trit at a high, (4.5 per unit) you can make about 10 million per hour in a Hulk mining nothing but Veldspar, about 1.8 times that with Pyrox and twice that with Kernite.
Fish Hunter
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-03-30 00:56:05 UTC
You can get close to 20 mil per hour with good hulk & good orca mining just veldspar.

If Lowsec/null mining is to be boosted the ore distribution & compositions would probably need to be reworked as well as a further nerf to loot drops and the drone compound removal. The rumored advanced mining crystals only useable in null would also help.
I was dinkin around last night lookin at industry indexes and Goons were the only ones i found to have a industry 5 system - go figure.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-03-30 00:56:32 UTC
Again read the op, i am well aware about the risk vs value of low sec mining, it is pointless to mine in low sec, this post is about fixing that so mining is not high or sov. Btw with the spike in tritanium i made 18mill per hour the other night mining only veldspar.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#7 - 2012-03-30 01:31:58 UTC
The only long-term fix would be to (possibly) add slightly more minerals to the low-sec ores.

The problem is that the drone regions have depressed the values of the mid-high end minerals for so long that nobody really knows what the balance will end up like.

We can all say that hi-sec should be worth N, low-sec should be worth N*2 and null-sec should be worth N*4, but because it's a complex market with multiple sources and supplemental sources and demands that shift over time, it's very hard to balance without constantly fiddling.

Which is why I'm in the "leave it alone for 3-4 months, then bring it up again" because I'm not sure how the drone changes are going to shake out.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#8 - 2012-03-30 01:35:15 UTC
Vito Tattaglia wrote:
Hi sec mining is the most profit for the risk, unless you're part of a large alliance with access to 0.0. With Trit at a high, (4.5 per unit) you can make about 10 million per hour in a Hulk mining nothing but Veldspar, about 1.8 times that with Pyrox and twice that with Kernite.


Not sure what game you are playing or if you even mine.

Everyone KNOWS the highest value High Sec Ore has been Pyrox since November of 2010.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#9 - 2012-03-30 01:38:26 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:


We can all say that hi-sec should be worth N, low-sec should be worth N*2 and null-sec should be worth N*4, but because it's a complex market with multiple sources and supplemental sources and demands that shift over time, it's very hard to balance without constantly fiddling.


Yup, the fluidity is pretty amazing.

When I started 2 years ago, Omber was the #1 Ore in high, then it quickly changed to Plagioclase. August of 2010 saw an inexplicable rise in Kernite, then the Noctis' requirements for Nocxium came out, and it's been all about Pyrox ever since.

Fascinating actually.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#10 - 2012-03-30 03:04:45 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Currently low sec mining carries, in some light, more risk than 0.0 mining with about half the reward, in most cases if you could field a fleet to mine in low sec, it would be more profitable to mine in null sec, if you couldnt field a nulll sec fleet, and dont want to become pirates yourself by defending your fleet from attacks before you lost any ships you would just stay in high sec. Am i the only one who feels this way or do other miners feel the same?


Dude, please join me on the "Add ABC ores to lowsec" warpath.

My thinking goes like this...

CCP are adding "ring mining" to 0.0 to enable the current moon goo materials to be mined in barges (of some kind *shrug*).

This indeed paves the way for ABC ores in my opinion to be added to low-sec.

This will give industry corps a clear path from high-sec, to low-sec, to 0.0. They would also be valued allies in all areas of space instead of the 2nd class citizens they are at the moment.

Grav sites - please get rid of the huge spodumain rocks. When a combat ship does a site he can finish it in 15 minutes. When 4-5 of us go into a grav site, we often can't finish it in the 3 days it exists and most of that time is completely wasted on the spodumain. At least low-end ores would be somewhat useful for building.

POS's need to be looked at in order to fix the current system of pos refining also - either get rid of the timer or lower the % of loss. I understand the % of loss better than the timer. Considering the CPU and PG it takes to put one in a POS it should be instant or have no loss - both systems limit the number of minerals maximum which might be put through an intensive refinery.

There are many other changes which could be looked at in the areas of invention, production, station slots, empire POS's etc also.

We need *1* industrial expansion to implement a lot of this and just "get it done".

.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#11 - 2012-03-30 03:11:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Revolution Rising wrote:

CCP are adding "ring mining" to 0.0 to enable the current moon goo materials to be mined in barges (of some kind *shrug*).



Whoaaaa there Nellie !


No such thing was promised. They are THINKING about doing this. Period.

And the gentleman said quite clearly at the Fanfest presentation that the point of Moon Goo in Ring Roids is to have them in High AND Low, not 0.0 exclusively. THAT would defeat the purpose (duh!).

Please don't post mis-information where noobs can read it, expecially a SIX year toon like yourself.....unless you are a recent 'purchase' or something.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#12 - 2012-03-30 04:48:58 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:

CCP are adding "ring mining" to 0.0 to enable the current moon goo materials to be mined in barges (of some kind *shrug*).



Whoaaaa there Nellie !


No such thing was promised. They are THINKING about doing this. Period.

And the gentleman said quite clearly at the Fanfest presentation that the point of Moon Goo in Ring Roids is to have them in High AND Low, not 0.0 exclusively. THAT would defeat the purpose (duh!).

Please don't post mis-information where noobs can read it, expecially a SIX year toon like yourself.....unless you are a recent 'purchase' or something.


This stuff has been discussed in the CSM minutes and now presented at fanfest in 2 different segments that I saw.

If you take a look at the way I presented the idea, one follows the other.

Also the point of ring mining is not to put the t2 moon goo everywhere, it is to initiate a bottom up feed of the t2 minerals instead of top down - as far as alliances go. This means miners will supply it and refine it just like they currently do for ABC.

The entire idea is to stop monopolies from forming, it is not to put t2 minerals into low-sec. Personally, I think it's just a bad idea to do so - again it would stymy the progression 0.0 people are looking for with regard to all of the game really.

There'd be no great incentive for people to move from low-sec to 0.0 at that point, not really what we're after I don't think.

Unless you see something changing hugely from the last CSM to this with the idea - then I can't see them doing anything else.

.
Leto Atraities
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-03-30 12:32:44 UTC
where i live i have some low sec systems near by. and from what i've seen the high sec large grav sites contain more low sec ore in them than the regular low sec belts contain. and that's pathetic and very uninspiring. low sec belts should be chalk full of low sec ores.

adding one of the null sec ores to low sec belts would help more too.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-03-30 13:30:26 UTC
I agree that low sec could use some more ore types, but i cant agree with putting abc, those should be null sec and w space only. But as scrapyard bob said, we should wait a bit and see what the loss of drone goo does to the market.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#15 - 2012-03-30 13:46:37 UTC
Leto Atraities wrote:
where i live i have some low sec systems near by. and from what i've seen the high sec large grav sites contain more low sec ore in them than the regular low sec belts contain. and that's pathetic and very uninspiring. low sec belts should be chalk full of low sec ores.

adding one of the null sec ores to low sec belts would help more too.


That's more of an argument to make grav sites more plentiful (since you can probably find ABC ore grav sites in low-sec) and to make the grav sites larger (in total m3 of ore available) across the board.

Asteroid belts are bad for lo-sec mining, because it's too easy to just jump from belt-to-belt looking for you. At least in a grav site, they have to first scan you down. Which means you can watch for probes within 2AU or 4AU.
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#16 - 2012-03-30 16:21:18 UTC
Fish Hunter wrote:
You can get close to 20 mil per hour with good hulk & good orca mining just veldspar.

If Lowsec/null mining is to be boosted the ore distribution & compositions would probably need to be reworked as well as a further nerf to loot drops and the drone compound removal. The rumored advanced mining crystals only useable in null would also help.
I was dinkin around last night lookin at industry indexes and Goons were the only ones i found to have a industry 5 system - go figure.


The advanced mining crystals do exist although they are not in-game obviously yet. Yield on them is 2.75 as opposed to the current 1.75 . I didn't know they will only be usuable in nul-sec but as they are to placate the drone regions for losing drone compounds that makes sense. An increase in yield is not really wanted as that would decrease mineral prices.
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#17 - 2012-03-30 16:27:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Celgar Thurn
Revolution Rising wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:

CCP are adding "ring mining" to 0.0 to enable the current moon goo materials to be mined in barges (of some kind *shrug*).



Whoaaaa there Nellie !


No such thing was promised. They are THINKING about doing this. Period.

And the gentleman said quite clearly at the Fanfest presentation that the point of Moon Goo in Ring Roids is to have them in High AND Low, not 0.0 exclusively. THAT would defeat the purpose (duh!).

Please don't post mis-information where noobs can read it, expecially a SIX year toon like yourself.....unless you are a recent 'purchase' or something.


This stuff has been discussed in the CSM minutes and now presented at fanfest in 2 different segments that I saw.

If you take a look at the way I presented the idea, one follows the other.

Also the point of ring mining is not to put the t2 moon goo everywhere, it is to initiate a bottom up feed of the t2 minerals instead of top down - as far as alliances go. This means miners will supply it and refine it just like they currently do for ABC.

The entire idea is to stop monopolies from forming, it is not to put t2 minerals into low-sec. Personally, I think it's just a bad idea to do so - again it would stymy the progression 0.0 people are looking for with regard to all of the game really.

I saw the proposed idea of ring mining on the HD stream during Fanfest and was also under the impression that ring mining would bring a source of 'moon goo' to high sec. If pilots do not want to set up their operations in nul & low sec CCP will not be able to force them to go there.

There'd be no great incentive for people to move from low-sec to 0.0 at that point, not really what we're after I don't think.

Unless you see something changing hugely from the last CSM to this with the idea - then I can't see them doing anything else.


PS. Bug in this forum entry/reply. My text is the third paragragh from the bottom. Rest of text is not my opinion. Oops
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#18 - 2012-03-30 17:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I agree that low sec could use some more ore types, but i cant agree with putting abc, those should be null sec and w space only. But as scrapyard bob said, we should wait a bit and see what the loss of drone goo does to the market.


Can I just say here, this is exactly what you shouldn't do if you want something to change.

I don't particularly care if you agree with my specific ideas or not, but if you DO want something to change, at least mail your CSM delegates asking for it.

We've waited 9 years for things like manufacturing to be made a little easier (clickfest) and nothing has changed at all. "Wait and see" doesn't help the industrial side of the game because the PVPers just seem to make more noise and get their changes every expansion.

Please send mail to the CSM delegates asking for the changes you want to see in industry.

I think asking for a specific industry expansion (not just one or two nice changes) should be the way to go - as the butterfly effect - one thing effects another, and it all should be looked at to make sure they don't break anything (again).

.
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-03-30 18:32:39 UTC
Capital Modulated Strip Miners capable of fitting on an Orca? Smile
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-03-30 20:29:24 UTC
Katja Faith wrote:
Capital Modulated Strip Miners capable of fitting on an Orca? Smile

Problem with those is bot miners would get an erection that would last for days.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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