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These events should prove the sandbox...
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My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#21 - 2012-03-30 16:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: My Neutral Toon
Grumpy Owly wrote:
My Neutral Toon wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Aslong as it's in the spirit of playing EvE as per the instructions it wont be an issue.

It's when it spills into sanctimonious excuses and politics where reasons are based on opinions and people feel they have an innaliable right to change the sandbox as a aresult of that to the exclusion of others opinion.

Sandbox in the game I think is pretty good as a result. What we need is to encourage is sharing the sandbox on the forum and curtailing arrogant opinion or insulting derogatory remarks due to a preference. Of course this excludes unreasonable or asshatttery posts, but too much in terms of falacies and selfishness is occuring to the detriment of EvE as opposed to mutual engineering of the sand so that everyone can benefit from the experience.

This kind of philanthropic philosophy will create win/win scenarios as opposed to a meta win you lose process. Fortunatley my experience of CCP in the main is that they are able to "filter" the "gimme gimme" cries out of loop.

Despite that I'm tired of the kneejerk reaction of the masses from singular extreme and suspect examples in relation to gaming complaints.

Doubt it will change of course, but you asked for views.


Have to disagree with your assertion that insults and derogatory remarks need to be cut back. Part of waging a war is the psychological blow of defeat and humiliation. In a sandbox war, anything and everything is up for grabs, so long as it stays inside the sandbox.

Now, I don't think that anyone should be made to insult others for any reason that they don't want to. But kicking sand in each others faces is what it is all about. The one who kicks harder wins.


Funnily enough I prefer adult conversations regarding the ideas as opposed to throwing my toys out the pram when I don't get my way or see something I dont like. Novel concept eh? Blink


Yes, that is your opinion. Which you are free to have and practice.

We have ours, which we are free to have and practice.

They have theirs, which they are free to have and practice.

Thus...Sandbox...


Thats actually a good point.

But consider this ....

Surely it is better to convince your opponent of an idea so that he can equally support it rather than just deny or invalidate that opinion? As such this ignorance or refusal to accomodate others is also equally an exclusion of sandbox principles.



It's quite the conundrum isn't it? Because in order to convince your opponent of your opinion, you have to disbelieve his opinion.

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
Marduk Nibiru
Chaos Delivery Systems
#22 - 2012-03-30 16:05:52 UTC
My Neutral Toon wrote:
Just take a second... stop crying. stop bitching, stop trolling...Shocked and look around...

No matter your stance on any of the events that have transpired since Fan Fest, this all just proves the theory of the sandbox we all love. The fact that any of this could actually happen at all, and have the impact on the game and the community like it has.

EVE > everything else


/just a thought


GTFO you goon alt no-name pubbie! You cold hearted, evil, tear-harvesting, carebear crybaby!
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2012-03-30 16:06:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
My Neutral Toon wrote:

It's quite the conundrum isn't it? Because in order to convince your opponent of your opinion, you have to disbelieve his opinion.


I think the thread just evolved: New concepts however, mutual concensus and compromise.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Marduk Nibiru
Chaos Delivery Systems
#24 - 2012-03-30 16:07:10 UTC
My Neutral Toon wrote:


It's quite the conundrum isn't it? Because in order to convince your opponent of your opinion, you have to disbelieve his opinion.


Actually, and I speak from experience, believing your own BS is not a prerequisite of convincing others that it's true.
My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-03-30 16:07:42 UTC  |  Edited by: My Neutral Toon
Marduk Nibiru wrote:
My Neutral Toon wrote:
Just take a second... stop crying. stop bitching, stop trolling...Shocked and look around...

No matter your stance on any of the events that have transpired since Fan Fest, this all just proves the theory of the sandbox we all love. The fact that any of this could actually happen at all, and have the impact on the game and the community like it has.

EVE > everything else


/just a thought


GTFO you goon alt no-name pubbie! You cold hearted, evil, tear-harvesting, carebear crybaby!



Im an alt of a Goon pet. Not an alt of a goon.... C'mon now.... Lol

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#26 - 2012-03-30 16:08:37 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Aslong as it's in the spirit of playing EvE as per the instructions it wont be an issue.

It's when it spills into sanctimonious excuses and politics where reasons are based on opinions and people feel they have an innaliable right to change the sandbox as a aresult of that to the exclusion of others opinion.

Sandbox in the game I think is pretty good as a result. What we need is to encourage is sharing the sandbox on the forum and curtailing arrogant opinion or insulting derogatory remarks due to a preference. Of course this excludes unreasonable or asshatttery posts, but too much in terms of falacies and selfishness is occuring to the detriment of EvE as opposed to mutual engineering of the sand so that everyone can benefit from the experience.

This kind of philanthropic philosophy will create win/win scenarios as opposed to a meta win you lose process. Fortunatley my experience of CCP in the main is that they are able to "filter" the "gimme gimme" cries out of loop.

Despite that I'm tired of the kneejerk reaction of the masses from singular extreme and suspect examples in relation to gaming complaints.

Doubt it will change of course, but you asked for views.


Have to disagree with your assertion that insults and derogatory remarks need to be cut back. Part of waging a war is the psychological blow of defeat and humiliation. In a sandbox war, anything and everything is up for grabs, so long as it stays inside the sandbox.

Now, I don't think that anyone should be made to insult others for any reason that they don't want to. But kicking sand in each others faces is what it is all about. The one who kicks harder wins.


Funnily enough I prefer adult conversations regarding the ideas as opposed to throwing my toys out the pram when I don't get my way or see something I dont like. Novel concept eh?

It could even be considered as socially nuturing, imagine that. Blink


Thing is though, it doesn't have anything to do with "not getting my way" or "seeing something I don't like". It is entirely about psychological warfare. Grinding the enemy down so they don't want to log in.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-03-30 16:09:36 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Aslong as it's in the spirit of playing EvE as per the instructions it wont be an issue.

It's when it spills into sanctimonious excuses and politics where reasons are based on opinions and people feel they have an innaliable right to change the sandbox as a aresult of that to the exclusion of others opinion.

Sandbox in the game I think is pretty good as a result. What we need is to encourage is sharing the sandbox on the forum and curtailing arrogant opinion or insulting derogatory remarks due to a preference. Of course this excludes unreasonable or asshatttery posts, but too much in terms of falacies and selfishness is occuring to the detriment of EvE as opposed to mutual engineering of the sand so that everyone can benefit from the experience.

This kind of philanthropic philosophy will create win/win scenarios as opposed to a meta win you lose process. Fortunatley my experience of CCP in the main is that they are able to "filter" the "gimme gimme" cries out of loop.

Despite that I'm tired of the kneejerk reaction of the masses from singular extreme and suspect examples in relation to gaming complaints.

Doubt it will change of course, but you asked for views.


Have to disagree with your assertion that insults and derogatory remarks need to be cut back. Part of waging a war is the psychological blow of defeat and humiliation. In a sandbox war, anything and everything is up for grabs, so long as it stays inside the sandbox.

Now, I don't think that anyone should be made to insult others for any reason that they don't want to. But kicking sand in each others faces is what it is all about. The one who kicks harder wins.


Funnily enough I prefer adult conversations regarding the ideas as opposed to throwing my toys out the pram when I don't get my way or see something I dont like. Novel concept eh?

It could even be considered as socially nuturing, imagine that. Blink


Thing is though, it doesn't have anything to do with "not getting my way" or "seeing something I don't like". It is entirely about psychological warfare. Grinding the enemy down so they don't want to log in.



THIS THIS THIS!!!!

Many wars in Eve HAVE BEEN WON this way.

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#28 - 2012-03-30 16:09:48 UTC
Marduk Nibiru wrote:
My Neutral Toon wrote:
Just take a second... stop crying. stop bitching, stop trolling...Shocked and look around...

No matter your stance on any of the events that have transpired since Fan Fest, this all just proves the theory of the sandbox we all love. The fact that any of this could actually happen at all, and have the impact on the game and the community like it has.

EVE > everything else


/just a thought


GTFO you goon alt no-name pubbie! You cold hearted, evil, tear-harvesting, carebear crybaby!


This sounds an awful lot like calling someone a fascist communist.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-03-30 16:10:24 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Marduk Nibiru wrote:
My Neutral Toon wrote:
Just take a second... stop crying. stop bitching, stop trolling...Shocked and look around...

No matter your stance on any of the events that have transpired since Fan Fest, this all just proves the theory of the sandbox we all love. The fact that any of this could actually happen at all, and have the impact on the game and the community like it has.

EVE > everything else


/just a thought


GTFO you goon alt no-name pubbie! You cold hearted, evil, tear-harvesting, carebear crybaby!


This sounds an awful lot like calling someone a fascist communist.


Or a pot calling a kettle black.


Or just a troll :)

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-03-30 16:12:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Lapine Davion wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Aslong as it's in the spirit of playing EvE as per the instructions it wont be an issue.

It's when it spills into sanctimonious excuses and politics where reasons are based on opinions and people feel they have an innaliable right to change the sandbox as a aresult of that to the exclusion of others opinion.

Sandbox in the game I think is pretty good as a result. What we need is to encourage is sharing the sandbox on the forum and curtailing arrogant opinion or insulting derogatory remarks due to a preference. Of course this excludes unreasonable or asshatttery posts, but too much in terms of falacies and selfishness is occuring to the detriment of EvE as opposed to mutual engineering of the sand so that everyone can benefit from the experience.

This kind of philanthropic philosophy will create win/win scenarios as opposed to a meta win you lose process. Fortunatley my experience of CCP in the main is that they are able to "filter" the "gimme gimme" cries out of loop.

Despite that I'm tired of the kneejerk reaction of the masses from singular extreme and suspect examples in relation to gaming complaints.

Doubt it will change of course, but you asked for views.


Have to disagree with your assertion that insults and derogatory remarks need to be cut back. Part of waging a war is the psychological blow of defeat and humiliation. In a sandbox war, anything and everything is up for grabs, so long as it stays inside the sandbox.

Now, I don't think that anyone should be made to insult others for any reason that they don't want to. But kicking sand in each others faces is what it is all about. The one who kicks harder wins.


Funnily enough I prefer adult conversations regarding the ideas as opposed to throwing my toys out the pram when I don't get my way or see something I dont like. Novel concept eh?

It could even be considered as socially nuturing, imagine that. Blink


Thing is though, it doesn't have anything to do with "not getting my way" or "seeing something I don't like". It is entirely about psychological warfare. Grinding the enemy down so they don't want to log in.


Hmm, ok, tactical warfare, thats a bit too meta for me in certain contexts.

As contextually that means that you don't care about the merits of a concept proposed by those individuals and you hold a predjudicial view to it as a result. (Though this understanding is not a major revelation of course to the EvE forum users) Blink

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#31 - 2012-03-30 16:12:12 UTC
Amity Lane wrote:
Even in the free play of the sandbox, if one of the children starts hitting the others over the head with his shovel the parent will take him out as punishment.

I think everyone would do well to remember that.



**** that, I start placing bets.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Azriel Geist
Pure Victory
#32 - 2012-03-30 16:13:36 UTC
My Neutral Toon wrote:
Azriel Geist wrote:
Lost faith in OP after first post.

Grumpy Owly is a smart guy.



You really think we should all share the sandbox?

Then what would people fight over? This game is based on PvP experience. Not just combat but players trying to out-do other players. It's what eve is about.


I've lost faith in the EVE community as a whole because everyone thinks the game should be on even terms for everyone. When the entire concept of the game is just the opposite.


What? I can't hear you over the RAGE. This is pretty much all I read to make my post:

Grumpy Owly wrote:

Instructions refer to things like EULA/TOS etc. sorry you can't interpolate the metaphor and have to twist it that I'm not sharing this view. Could have posed a question than assumed also.
My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-03-30 16:16:08 UTC  |  Edited by: My Neutral Toon
Azriel Geist wrote:
My Neutral Toon wrote:
Azriel Geist wrote:
Lost faith in OP after first post.

Grumpy Owly is a smart guy.



You really think we should all share the sandbox?

Then what would people fight over? This game is based on PvP experience. Not just combat but players trying to out-do other players. It's what eve is about.


I've lost faith in the EVE community as a whole because everyone thinks the game should be on even terms for everyone. When the entire concept of the game is just the opposite.


What? I can't hear you over the RAGE. This is pretty much all I read to make my post:

Grumpy Owly wrote:

Instructions refer to things like EULA/TOS etc. sorry you can't interpolate the metaphor and have to twist it that I'm not sharing this view. Could have posed a question than assumed also.



Rage? What rage? Me and Owl were having a nice conversation about the sandbox, if you read all the posts, and you came in here inserting your useless posts. Not actually contributing anything meaningful or useful to the conversation / thread.

HTFU or GTFO troll.

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#34 - 2012-03-30 16:17:41 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Aslong as it's in the spirit of playing EvE as per the instructions it wont be an issue.

It's when it spills into sanctimonious excuses and politics where reasons are based on opinions and people feel they have an innaliable right to change the sandbox as a aresult of that to the exclusion of others opinion.

Sandbox in the game I think is pretty good as a result. What we need is to encourage is sharing the sandbox on the forum and curtailing arrogant opinion or insulting derogatory remarks due to a preference. Of course this excludes unreasonable or asshatttery posts, but too much in terms of falacies and selfishness is occuring to the detriment of EvE as opposed to mutual engineering of the sand so that everyone can benefit from the experience.

This kind of philanthropic philosophy will create win/win scenarios as opposed to a meta win you lose process. Fortunatley my experience of CCP in the main is that they are able to "filter" the "gimme gimme" cries out of loop.

Despite that I'm tired of the kneejerk reaction of the masses from singular extreme and suspect examples in relation to gaming complaints.

Doubt it will change of course, but you asked for views.


Have to disagree with your assertion that insults and derogatory remarks need to be cut back. Part of waging a war is the psychological blow of defeat and humiliation. In a sandbox war, anything and everything is up for grabs, so long as it stays inside the sandbox.

Now, I don't think that anyone should be made to insult others for any reason that they don't want to. But kicking sand in each others faces is what it is all about. The one who kicks harder wins.


Funnily enough I prefer adult conversations regarding the ideas as opposed to throwing my toys out the pram when I don't get my way or see something I dont like. Novel concept eh?

It could even be considered as socially nuturing, imagine that. Blink


Thing is though, it doesn't have anything to do with "not getting my way" or "seeing something I don't like". It is entirely about psychological warfare. Grinding the enemy down so they don't want to log in.


Hmm, ok, tactical warfare, thats a bit too meta for me in certain contexts.

As contextually that means that you don't care about the merits of a concept proposed by those individuals and you hold a predjudicial view to it as a result. (Though this understanding is not a major revelation of course to the EvE forum users) Blink


We prefer to leave the intellectual discussion to RL meets. That is why Goons can shoot at PL and Raiden. and grind them down and make them feel like **** in-game, then share beers with them and have a good time at fanfest.

Of course, there are still people who take the grudge outside of the game. As evidenced recently.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
#35 - 2012-03-30 16:38:13 UTC
Not that it bothers me but, just an observation since I started playing this game 3 years ago. It is my feeling that a certain number of Eve players seem to be using the "sandbox" expression "created" by CCP as an excuse that allows them to do whatever they want and use any kind of behaviour they wish. As if it was taken for granted that CCP "thought" in advance that all possible behaviours in the game would be "acceptable" to the majority of players therefore, making every action justifiable and even desirable.
My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-03-30 16:44:25 UTC  |  Edited by: My Neutral Toon
Dragon Outlaw wrote:
Not that it bothers me but, just an observation since I started playing this game 3 years ago. It is my feeling that a certain number of Eve players seem to be using the "sandbox" expression "created" by CCP as an excuse that allows them to do whatever they want and use any kind of behaviour they wish. As if it was taken for granted that CCP "thought" in advance that all possible behaviours in the game would be "acceptable" to the majority of players therefore, making every action justifiable and even desirable.



CCP has been developing Eve for 15 years. If they didnt want something in the game, it would be removed. I joined this community almost 5 years ago when I created my main. Its not like anything is new here.

Go read the GM post on the first page of this harassment thread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread

Anything that happens in game and doesnt break the EULA is fair game. Its only a problem when you break the EULA or go out-of-game.

If you don't like someone's in-game negative antics, report them and move on. If they have done something truly wrong, CCP will take action.

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
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