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Request for clarification on harassment policy

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Ai Shun
#221 - 2012-03-30 09:03:44 UTC
C Genix wrote:
Depends wether you worry is one of general humanity or fear of infracting CCP's useless rules?


My worry is for the game I play and love to play - a game made for, of and because of player versus player conflicts. It is in all aspects of the game. Whilst I have sympathy for people with a real problem, I do not want to see it used as an excuse to avoid player versus player conflict. Nor is it my duty to act as a guidance Councillor or support person to people who do not have the mental fortitude to play a game that thrives on conflict.

That sounds harsh. But face it - ultimately - somebody who has such a severe problem they will contemplate suicide because of a video game should not be playing a game where conflict drives the story line, the company tag-line is HTFU and everybody is out to get everyone else in one way or another. Well - apart from the ones that spin ships all day.

After all, if I'm allergic to nuts I'm not going to go around licking Professor Alphanae, now am I? That would just be asking for it.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#222 - 2012-03-30 09:09:49 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
So does this mean you guys will actually start doing something about the people who give out death threats after being scammed?


So you have reported the death threats every time? Or did you just think, "Oh lulz, tears!" and then leave it at that?

I just don't understand some of you guys. You keep trying to twist and take the rules out of context when they are pretty ******* clear. As long as your actions stay within the nature of the game and such it is ok. The moment you threaten, advocate or do OUT OF GAME action that is with the intent to cause harm to someone, YOU ******* IT UP AND WRONG!

I refuse to believe that any of you actually think trying to have someone kill themselves in real life is supposed to be part of the game. There has to be a moment where your conscience kicks in with a "Wait, you want to do/say what?!" before your mouth opens or your fingers type those words.

If that simply is not the case, then YOU, need to stop interacting with anything that involves other people. You need to seek major psychological help immediately.
Ai Shun
#223 - 2012-03-30 09:13:05 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I refuse to believe that any of you actually think trying to have someone kill themselves in real life is supposed to be part of the game.


Did somebody actually say that?
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#224 - 2012-03-30 09:26:47 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
I refuse to believe that any of you actually think trying to have someone kill themselves in real life is supposed to be part of the game.


Did somebody actually say that?

Not in so many words, because pretty much everyone realizes it would be a really, really bad idea.

However, in the various Mittani threads, there have been a lot of people who defended saying stuff like what Mittani said by the grounds that if someone is so suicidal that they would actually do it over EVE, they are pretty much asking for it. Personally I found that coming pretty close.
Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#225 - 2012-03-30 09:47:44 UTC
Tei Lin wrote:
malaire wrote:
Tei Lin wrote:
Where do these fall under the potentially new interpretation of harassment?

What "new" interpretation?

Banning Mittani was not about possibly suicidal state of (redacted).

It was about Mittani telling others to harrass him to make him commit suicide.

Don't confuse these two.


Yes, but I am told by numerous people/organizations on a daily basis to go out and kill one pilot or another en masse, what makes this case so special?

It's the finer nuances that are being covered by broad strokes which need to be clarified.



Remember when you were a kid and you and the other kids used to play-fight? Thumping, pulling hair, etc.

And everyone now and then some kid would scream "Stop, you're really hurting me"

That's when you should stop.

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#226 - 2012-03-30 09:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:

If you really care about treating suicidal players right, then what The Mittani should have done when he received that mail was to
- forward it to CCP,
- not talk to that player again,
- continue playing normally, and
- not mention it to anyone else.
Did he do any of that stuff? Yea, did not think so.

are you aware that

(a) The Mittani's only role in this incident was to receive the protection fee but that the whole legwork (including the mail exchange and ganking) was done by a different goon.

(b) that the in-game incident has happened 5 months ago, that the mail exchange was posted on public forums shortly after and that several people on these forums claimed to have alerted CCP to The Wis possibly being suicidal.

I think that the Mittani behaved in an unacceptable manner during the Q&A session and I have no problem with people pointing that out - but the amount of rabble rousing by people who cannot be bothered to look up basic facts before posting is just nauseating.
C Genix
Genix Family
#227 - 2012-03-30 10:03:01 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
C Genix wrote:
Depends wether you worry is one of general humanity or fear of infracting CCP's useless rules?


My worry is for the game I play and love to play - a game made for, of and because of player versus player conflicts. It is in all aspects of the game. Whilst I have sympathy for people with a real problem, I do not want to see it used as an excuse to avoid player versus player conflict. Nor is it my duty to act as a guidance Councillor or support person to people who do not have the mental fortitude to play a game that thrives on conflict.

That sounds harsh. But face it - ultimately - somebody who has such a severe problem they will contemplate suicide because of a video game should not be playing a game where conflict drives the story line, the company tag-line is HTFU and everybody is out to get everyone else in one way or another. Well - apart from the ones that spin ships all day.

After all, if I'm allergic to nuts I'm not going to go around licking Professor Alphanae, now am I? That would just be asking for it.





what have my testicle got to do with this What?
Ai Shun
#228 - 2012-03-30 10:04:36 UTC
C Genix wrote:
Ai Shun wrote:
C Genix wrote:
Depends wether you worry is one of general humanity or fear of infracting CCP's useless rules?


My worry is for the game I play and love to play - a game made for, of and because of player versus player conflicts. It is in all aspects of the game. Whilst I have sympathy for people with a real problem, I do not want to see it used as an excuse to avoid player versus player conflict. Nor is it my duty to act as a guidance Councillor or support person to people who do not have the mental fortitude to play a game that thrives on conflict.

That sounds harsh. But face it - ultimately - somebody who has such a severe problem they will contemplate suicide because of a video game should not be playing a game where conflict drives the story line, the company tag-line is HTFU and everybody is out to get everyone else in one way or another. Well - apart from the ones that spin ships all day.

After all, if I'm allergic to nuts I'm not going to go around licking Professor Alphanae, now am I? That would just be asking for it.





what have my testicle got to do with this What?


Nothing. Why would you even mention them?
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#229 - 2012-03-30 10:05:07 UTC
To OP.

Pretty much anything said in game is fair-do's. Go mental! How they take what you say, all down to the person. I tend to not reply. Gankers want your tears, so giving them nothing but static is always the best option.

Saying that in person, live on the net, and getting all your mates to get involved, probably not the best idea. Thats not "in-game".

Hope that clears things up!

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
C Genix
Genix Family
#230 - 2012-03-30 10:12:44 UTC  |  Edited by: C Genix
Ai Shun wrote:
C Genix wrote:
Ai Shun wrote:
C Genix wrote:
Depends wether you worry is one of general humanity or fear of infracting CCP's useless rules?


My worry is for the game I play and love to play - a game made for, of and because of player versus player conflicts. It is in all aspects of the game. Whilst I have sympathy for people with a real problem, I do not want to see it used as an excuse to avoid player versus player conflict. Nor is it my duty to act as a guidance Councillor or support person to people who do not have the mental fortitude to play a game that thrives on conflict.

That sounds harsh. But face it - ultimately - somebody who has such a severe problem they will contemplate suicide because of a video game should not be playing a game where conflict drives the story line, the company tag-line is HTFU and everybody is out to get everyone else in one way or another. Well - apart from the ones that spin ships all day.

After all, if I'm allergic to nuts I'm not going to go around licking Professor Alphanae, now am I? That would just be asking for it.





what have my testicle got to do with this What?


Nothing. Why would you even mention them?


Sorry my bad misread your last sentence, thought you wanted to lick my ....
Oh well you get the idea sorry
ChYph3r
A Murder Of Crows.
Homicidal Tendencies.
#231 - 2012-03-30 10:41:39 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.



So basically, If I were to tell another player " I hope you die " and ad "in game" this is not a ban able offense correct?

Because I didnt threaten nor wish it upon said players real life, but his virtual life?

Because I can dig up a sh*t ton of logs were i was told " I hope you die" with out the "in game" clause.

Want to find all the podcasts around EVE Online visit http://evepodcasts.com @chyph3r  on Twitter
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#232 - 2012-03-30 10:53:50 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:

If you really care about treating suicidal players right, then what The Mittani should have done when he received that mail was to
- forward it to CCP,
- not talk to that player again,
- continue playing normally, and
- not mention it to anyone else.
Did he do any of that stuff? Yea, did not think so.

are you aware that

(a) The Mittani's only role in this incident was to receive the protection fee but that the whole legwork (including the mail exchange and ganking) was done by a different goon.

(b) that the in-game incident has happened 5 months ago, that the mail exchange was posted on public forums shortly after and that several people on these forums claimed to have alerted CCP to The Wis possibly being suicidal.

I think that the Mittani behaved in an unacceptable manner during the Q&A session and I have no problem with people pointing that out - but the amount of rabble rousing by people who cannot be bothered to look up basic facts before posting is just nauseating.

No, I wasn't in fact aware of that, thanks for pointing it out.

Does not change my point, though. That is what should have happened - though not by Mittani, but by that other guy. Mittani's taking it up in the presentation was still his fault, not the other guy's, I assume? :)
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#233 - 2012-03-30 10:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
ChYph3r wrote:
So basically, If I were to tell another player " I hope you die " and ad "in game" this is not a ban able offense correct?

Because I didnt threaten nor wish it upon said players real life, but his virtual life?

Because I can dig up a sh*t ton of logs were i was told " I hope you die" with out the "in game" clause.

Would you want to do that? Are you of the opinion that people who say that should be banned? If you are, yes, by all means do it. If you are not of that opinion, no, you should not dig those logs up; it would be just to harass the people who handle petitions by making them extra work when in fact you hope they will not react on it.

You should petition stuff you find unacceptable and believe to be against the EULA/TOS. CCP employees will then decide if it actually was.

As to language, someone suggested using "go pod yourself" for a phrase that makes it pretty clear it is not intended for real. I liked that suggestion. :)
ChYph3r
A Murder Of Crows.
Homicidal Tendencies.
#234 - 2012-03-30 11:04:06 UTC
see the thing is people don't say i hope you get podded, people type what i said. They go off anger and not thinking about what they are typing.

and I was just looking for clarification from the GM that posted.

Want to find all the podcasts around EVE Online visit http://evepodcasts.com @chyph3r  on Twitter
Aelius
Band of Builders Inc.
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#235 - 2012-03-30 11:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Aelius
Oh the drama queens... It's a game, he was punished by actions made out of the game (being drunk and enticing people to push someone to RL suicide).
IMO a good CSM member should had known better. But when you have someone being elected by their own peers... sooner or latter you get these type of things. I in the past have criticized CCP by mixing up RL with game (when CCP banned "S4" and "SAS" corp names), but in this case they (CCP) did the right thing, because the last statements made by The Mittani, drunken or not, were referring to RL suicide.

Keep game out of RL and RL out of the game.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#236 - 2012-03-30 11:25:11 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
rock 717 wrote:
player who threaten to suide should be ban for their protection.

CCP has repeatedly said regarding the incident that any suicide threat they hear of will be reported to the local authorities of that player, who will then take care of the matter. I would not oppose temporarily banning them, too, myself.

However, that does not mean that verbally abusing players who are / claim to be suicidal is ok. It does not mean you can publicly humiliate them, or encourage other people to drive him to feel even worse.

If you really care about treating suicidal players right, then what The Mittani should have done when he received that mail was to
- forward it to CCP,
- not talk to that player again,
- continue playing normally, and
- not mention it to anyone else.
Did he do any of that stuff? Yea, did not think so.

Great post. I'll just add that if us players were capable of using our common sense and reason we wouldn't need to have these rules spelled out step by step. Unfortunately, some of us can't.

I have no doubt in my mind that if this incident would have taken a turn for the worse in terms of someone losing his life it would have been a source of laughs and reason to point and ridicule further to some. Eve is a beautiful game with lots of potential. But it also attracts malicious and ill-intentioned grief players. And I hate calling them players because they aren't. They are individuals that use the game as a tool to cause real-life grief to others to feel better about themselves. And they themselves cannot differentiate between what is considered game and what is real life. Nor do they care in making this distinction. Of course, they will use this very same rhetoric against their victims.

What Mr. Alexander Gianturco did is indefensible. Yet there is a group (mostly Goons and in-game associates) that are calling out for massive amounts of grief play against others because of the consequences that Mr. Gianturco brought on himself. They do not even want to attempt to understand the concept of consequences to actions. And unfortunately this game venue provides them an arena in which to amplify and reinforce this philosophy. They will blame everyone and everything else but themselves, including the victim or alcohol. Mind you, the act itself was premeditated.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
C Genix
Genix Family
#237 - 2012-03-30 11:29:52 UTC
While this is true the actions of these players and CCP for supporting such infracts several RL laws in many diffrent counties.

Regardless that goons are the scum of the Earth

CCP are now complicite in illegal activity
My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#238 - 2012-03-30 14:44:19 UTC
flapie 2 wrote:
My Neutral Toon wrote:
flapie 2 wrote:
My Neutral Toon wrote:
People want EVE to be easier, when they had to click OKAY on a screen that says "EVE IS HARD" when they signed up.


Ow really, i am very sure that wasn't spelled out like that when i signed up back in '04.
No that i mind that its hard ....... i like it hard ......... that could have sounded so wrong in the wrong context Roll



Are you kidding me? If you have actually been active since 2004 then you should already know eve is hard. Not my fault you are a 8 year old noob. The EVE IS HARD message was put out there a while back after people kept complaining about the difficult new player experience.

Your point is moot


Lol im a noob ahu ....... ill just use my common sense and ignore that statement.

I never said i dint know eve was hard, where did you read that ? at the back of your eyelids while rolling em back thinking you got some sweet vet target to troll on ?

Go back into you cave m8, and let the vet trolls handle this. Your troll is weak :P



You are the one quoted my post saying it wasnt posted back in 2004. implying older toons wouldnt know that eve is hard. Which they should.

don't get your panties is a wad

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#239 - 2012-03-30 19:01:33 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
This does not give you the right to be anti-social just because you enjoy tormenting others.


Just wow.
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Doomheim
#240 - 2012-04-24 00:38:05 UTC
Wukulo wrote:
The reality is the TOS and EULA are very broad open ended rule sets. They can be used with a fair degree of flexibility.

This whole thing really brings to light how fragile this stuff is. CCP didn't make this any better by acting in such a high profile manner. (Stupid of you CCP)


specifying the lines so we know when we cross them is a brilliant idea

Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game