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Wardec round table

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VegasMirage
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#121 - 2012-03-29 08:56:39 UTC
[quote=Iam Widdershins]Of all the sock puppets that I have seen that are actually on fire, VegasMirage is by far my favorite.[/quote

Don't get me wrong Widders (I respect your knowledge of the game), I agree the game can always be improved but it's clear that certain mechanics work for the masses and not for the merc community and those are the things you're focused on. You guys seem scared that more people will learn how to do what we're doing to you guys. That would be hilarious. Mercs would basically be shut down.

A change to corp hopping or dec shields don't change anything for me and 99% of Eve. You guys are saying you want guaranteed targets cause you paid for them. Most merc targets are people who don't want to pvp. Seems unfair.

If you want Eve to be true to life, then don't constrain it with unnecessary rules. An attempt to force people to stay in a corp is silly and a waste of CCP staff time

I've actually worked with CCP over months of petitions against us to ensure the Corp jumping mechanics we use are acceptable. It's not easy to do, it takes mad amounts of energy, coordination, admin work, spreadsheets, alts and intel. Most people can't do what we do or can't be bothered to invest the time. We have a developed system that works.

What's wrong with me having a group of players who each have their own corps and help each other out with their war decs when asked?

What's broken about me having 32 wars on at any one time using 14 corporations costing me a 10th of what you guys been paying for years? Being able to kill whenever I want without being killed? Or me being able to solo a fleet of re-tarded mercs with my logi, falcon and vindi alts. What's next a ban on the number of alts you can have running at one time?

Seriously, go incursion or POS bash if you want easy targets

To those who cry over people not standing still when they shoot at them, either hide behind a 7,000 man armada or grow up, get a job and pay CCP if you wanna be a boss in this game.

no more games... it's real this time!!!
Dutarro
Ghezer Aramih
#122 - 2012-03-29 12:32:19 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:

You should need 4.0 faction standings to anchor a POS in an 0.4 system. I know this because I have actually anchored POS in 0.4 before. If this is no longer the case that means that it changed quite recently. Additional sources: one, two, three, four, five.


I anchored a POS in 0.4 about a year ago, and our corp definitely didn't have 4.0 faction standing back then. Also, towers in 0.4 don't use charters.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#123 - 2012-03-29 14:19:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Skippermonkey
this recording was MUCH more fun than the ACTUAL fanfest roundtable on war decs

which was seemingly a competition on how many simultaneous conversations you could get going at the same time

the highlight was the EVE UNI representative shouting down some hisec grifers as 'SHITBIRDS'

to which Tycho from TK instantly replied 'DEAL WITH IT'

basically, the people not being angry nulbearlords were advocating corp aggro instead of this retardaggro everything idea

i remember somebody having great difficulty grasping the fact that the first weeks war dec fee was paid at the beginning and the second weeks cost was decided at the beginning. The first time the war dec fee could change was for the 3rd weeks of war dec (we spent far too long talking on that because of mr. slowpoke)

also most people thought the new war dec fees were plucked out of the air and not really fair

the people that war decced also realised this new pricing mechanic priced out small corps war deccing larger entities. Some wise person suggested the war dec fee be based on the relative size of your corp vs. the corp you are deccing.

If we never again get the chance to be SHITBIRDS by deccing EVE UNI for the lulz, EVE will be in a worse place for it

edit - forgot we talked about corp hopping. Locking a player into the NPC corp until the war he left expires was mentioned. Also a 'coward' yellow card on their permanent record was floated by the CCP Dev. Mr.EVE UNI took great offense to this 'cowardice award' because he explained that corp hopping was an EVE UNI tactic. go figure.

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
ZANE VOIDSTALKER
Space Wizards.
Tactical Narcotics Team
#124 - 2012-03-29 16:48:43 UTC
i have read through the min and have few points i would like to make. We stay in highsec because small gang is just more challanging we are always out numberd. my corp dec 1200 man alliance's dealing with large feets and coming up woth creative ways to counter there fleet set up is challanging. we dont like low null because there your just another alpha ship. that is just not fun for alot of us. nuet logi in high sec its is easy to counter. you dont even have to have ecm "falcon to do it. it takes just couple days to train skills to eliminate enemy nuetral logi. i wont give away my fleet tactics but anyone can do it just ready through mods list and figure it out. as far as logi getting agression and cant jump thats insane it get that right because its a unarmed ship. Simple fact is this IS a challanging game, and pvp is not for everyone. not everyone will be able to think cratively and deal with enemy fleets. but should we keep changing game mech. for these people every time they cry about it. answer is simple NO we shouldnt. they can recuite a fc or hire one. thats what big companyss do in real life and isnt that part of ccp thing want eve to be like real life.

thank you for your time
zane voidstalker
director cevl
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#125 - 2012-03-29 17:42:40 UTC
ZANE VOIDSTALKER wrote:
as far as logi getting agression and cant jump thats insane it get that right because its a unarmed ship

That's like saying the getaway driver shouldn't be in trouble because he didn't actually carry a gun and rob the bank.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Christy D Floyd
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2012-03-29 18:53:46 UTC
If you put a group of turds together you get a big pile of steamy S#$%

Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons.
Istyn
Freight Club
#127 - 2012-03-29 20:11:25 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
ZANE VOIDSTALKER wrote:
as far as logi getting agression and cant jump thats insane it get that right because its a unarmed ship

That's like saying the getaway driver shouldn't be in trouble because he didn't actually carry a gun and rob the bank.


This.

Christy D Floyd wrote:
If you put a group of turds together you get a big pile of steamy S#$%


You do. Good job figuring that out. :)
VegasMirage
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#128 - 2012-03-29 20:54:49 UTC
ZANE VOIDSTALKER wrote:
i have read through the min and have few points i would like to make. We stay in highsec because small gang is just more challanging we are always out numberd. my corp dec 1200 man alliance's dealing with large feets and coming up woth creative ways to counter there fleet set up is challanging. we dont like low null because there your just another alpha ship. that is just not fun for alot of us. nuet logi in high sec its is easy to counter. you dont even have to have ecm "falcon to do it. it takes just couple days to train skills to eliminate enemy nuetral logi. i wont give away my fleet tactics but anyone can do it just ready through mods list and figure it out. as far as logi getting agression and cant jump thats insane it get that right because its a unarmed ship. Simple fact is this IS a challanging game, and pvp is not for everyone. not everyone will be able to think cratively and deal with enemy fleets. but should we keep changing game mech. for these people every time they cry about it. answer is simple NO we shouldnt. they can recuite a fc or hire one. thats what big companyss do in real life and isnt that part of ccp thing want eve to be like real life.

thank you for your time
zane voidstalker
director cevl



Hey Zane o/

One of my guys fought your crew 1 v 8 [or more] and our logi couldn't keep up with your 45 ec-drones because we "forgot" to undock the ECCM casting alt.You decided to forgo the extra drone dps. Had we planned a bit better, he'd proly have done decent against you guys. We all had fun and it was nice to see you're one of the few groups who don't run away from gangs with logi or cry about it when you lose a ship. Neither do we.

"Everybody has logi in hi-sec naow!!!" is the universal cry for change from merc contracts channel these days.

Just wanted to add they [the round table] are asking people who have spent years training max skills for a hulk/Orca to remain docked or not play because the mercs wanna shoot them. "well, ya ofc!"

alpha > ewar > cap war > logi order of importance and effectiveness imo

Learn to fit and learn to determine/estimate ehp on hostile ships.

no more games... it's real this time!!!
Zedrik Cayne
Standards and Practices
#129 - 2012-03-30 01:42:54 UTC
VegasMirage wrote:
Don't get me wrong Widders (I respect your knowledge of the game), I agree the game can always be improved but it's clear that certain mechanics work for the masses and not for the merc community and those are the things you're focused on. You guys seem scared that more people will learn how to do what we're doing to you guys. That would be hilarious. Mercs would basically be shut down.

A change to corp hopping or dec shields don't change anything for me and 99% of Eve. You guys are saying you want guaranteed targets cause you paid for them. Most merc targets are people who don't want to pvp. Seems unfair.

If you want Eve to be true to life, then don't constrain it with unnecessary rules. An attempt to force people to stay in a corp is silly and a waste of CCP staff time

I've actually worked with CCP over months of petitions against us to ensure the Corp jumping mechanics we use are acceptable. It's not easy to do, it takes mad amounts of energy, coordination, admin work, spreadsheets, alts and intel. Most people can't do what we do or can't be bothered to invest the time. We have a developed system that works.

What's wrong with me having a group of players who each have their own corps and help each other out with their war decs when asked?

What's broken about me having 32 wars on at any one time using 14 corporations costing me a 10th of what you guys been paying for years? Being able to kill whenever I want without being killed? Or me being able to solo a fleet of re-tarded mercs with my logi, falcon and vindi alts. What's next a ban on the number of alts you can have running at one time?

Seriously, go incursion or POS bash if you want easy targets

To those who cry over people not standing still when they shoot at them, either hide behind a 7,000 man armada or grow up, get a job and pay CCP if you wanna be a boss in this game.


We want to stop these situations:

1) Pilot camped in station...leaves corp.
2) Pilot thumbs nose at war targets.
3) Some time later (ten, twenty minutes) rejoins corp, handily evading the camp, but then able to rejoin the festivities.

1) Corporation at war has scouted a group of systems. And one of them starts missioning.
2) The aggressor has an alt in a non-related corp or npc corp.. Scans out said mission runner.
3) Alt in non-related npc corp redocks..hops into combat ship. Joins aggressor corp. Undocks..pounds on mission runner.
4) Alt redocks..leaves corp.

Both 'valid' ways of moving around corporations. But they bend the war aggression rules in a pretzel. The first is typically used by the defending corporation. And the second primarily by the attacking corporation. And both are horrible. (In fact, the second is actually an exploit if done incorrectly. As you've probably been told in whatever conversations you have had with the GM's in petitions.)

While you are running right up against the edge of the 'letter' of the law. The spirit is left bleeding on the floor. And you know what? While they are busy making up a new set of rules. Might as well fix some of the more broken aspects and make being in a war consequential. Either from the aggressor or defender side.

You leave the aggressing corp? You can't go back. You leave the defending corp? Same deal. Leaving has a consequence. You want to join a corp at war? You need to wait 24 hours. Or at least that's my personal feelings on the subject. The way you and your 'merc friends' hop around there is no consequence. That is what is broken. (Hey, you asked)

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Mr Kobb
Doomriders.
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#130 - 2012-03-30 06:34:07 UTC
Woah
Woah
Woah
Woah
Woah

What the hell is highsec Pvp?
VegasMirage
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#131 - 2012-03-30 08:24:44 UTC  |  Edited by: VegasMirage
Zedrik Cayne wrote:
VegasMirage wrote:
tl;dr corp jumping is fun...


We want to stop these situations:

1) Pilot camped in station...leaves corp.
2) Pilot thumbs nose at war targets.
3) Some time later (ten, twenty minutes) rejoins corp, handily evading the camp, but then able to rejoin the festivities.

1) Corporation at war has scouted a group of systems. And one of them starts missioning.
2) The aggressor has an alt in a non-related corp or npc corp.. Scans out said mission runner.
3) Alt in non-related npc corp redocks..hops into combat ship. Joins aggressor corp. Undocks..pounds on mission runner.
4) Alt redocks..leaves corp.

Both 'valid' ways of moving around corporations. But they bend the war aggression rules in a pretzel. The first is typically used by the defending corporation. And the second primarily by the attacking corporation. And both are horrible. (In fact, the second is actually an exploit if done incorrectly. As you've probably been told in whatever conversations you have had with the GM's in petitions.)

While you are running right up against the edge of the 'letter' of the law. The spirit is left bleeding on the floor. And you know what? While they are busy making up a new set of rules. Might as well fix some of the more broken aspects and make being in a war consequential. Either from the aggressor or defender side.

You leave the aggressing corp? You can't go back. You leave the defending corp? Same deal. Leaving has a consequence. You want to join a corp at war? You need to wait 24 hours. Or at least that's my personal feelings on the subject. The way you and your 'merc friends' hop around there is no consequence. That is what is broken. (Hey, you asked)



You must be docked in another system different than that of a war target before you can join/rejoin a corp at war. This means typically a war target will see you enter system (whether you jumped or not) and most probably they have eyes. So, what you propose makes no difference. Perhaps a mechanism that says, "if there's a war target in system you may not join this corporation at war, please leave and rejoin in another system"... you could force it to be 2 systems out if you wanted.

I do this daily, it's not easy if you follow the rules set out by CCP. Problem has been solved.

Who cares how many times you change corps in a day or whether your target remains in corp so you can shoot them [your war is against the corp not the person]. There are other alternatives to killing the ones you hate like suicide, awoxing etc.,

If you're trying to close a corp or alliance in hi sec down it's not that hard. We just keep the pressure on, when they join dec shield we redec for as long as it takes, eventually their members (die to us) and then leave for greener pastures.

The down side is that your employment history precludes you from joining "normal" corps because corp jumpers are considered dirt bags. There are consequences.

The can flipping mechanics (I know you said nothing of this), but I want to add are fine also. It simply provides for consensual pvp in Eve. Very rare and hard to find.

I think what you are asking for is also already in place. It's called making a war mutual. Which I have tried to do with many merc corps and they say no ;(

no more games... it's real this time!!!
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#132 - 2012-03-30 08:43:40 UTC
Zedrik Cayne wrote:
The way you and your 'merc friends' hop around there is no consequence. That is what is broken. (Hey, you asked)

I don't want to see you pointing fingers here. Both are broken and you know it. The only reason hopping between aggressors doesn't look broken sometimes is because what the defenders can do is effectively so much more powerful. It's the difference between joining a corporation to have a chance at killing someone... and leaving a corporation so that there is no chance of being killed. And if you say "oh well they could just suicide them," you're both forgetting how expensive suiciding low-value targets is these days and ignoring that they could've just done that anyway.

I am a very strong advocate for heavy restrictions on movement in and out of corporations at war. I think that declaring a war should really mean something, that it should represent a significant investment of time and money and effort. I don't think that a war against an inflated super-alliance should be too expensive to handle, but I do think that any war fee should be an amount of money that has meaning.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#133 - 2012-03-30 13:41:17 UTC
Maybe make sure you're linking to these posts from the dev blog?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88487

(Or just post there instead? Although hopefully this is one of the threads that the devs are following.)
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#134 - 2012-03-30 16:21:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Comments on the roundtable

Logi flagging concerning docking/jumping

If assisting means you truly inherit the timer from the pilots you're repping/boosting then there should be no problem. A Scimitar shieldreps a Machariel on a gate who has 5 minutes on his GCC or a 10 seconds left on his jump-timer: now the Scimitar has too. If a Basilisk has a energy transfer on the Scimitar, he now inherits the Scimitar's timer. In the end, once the Mach is in the clear, so will be everyone assisting him, directly or indirectly.

Corphopping/dropping corp or alliance
If you can't shed a war as an idividual as easily and immediately as you can now, you also lower the incentive of people to massively jump the ship, making it also less likely to sink. If you leave a corporation during a war, you will remain flagged towards the enemies for a week. And as long as you're flagged, you can't join another corp. This can also be applied to corporations leaving alliances. They remain targets for a week, after which the attacker has the option to pay to continue war with them or not (only then the warmultiplier goes into effect).

Consequences for attacking another corp by mutualizing a war
Whenever a defending corporation declares a war mutual, the attacking corporation can then only stop the war using the mechanic to formally surrender (too many allies joined, attacker wants out: fine, but now you have to pay up).

The warbills
I think the warbills should be more streamlined A lump-sum with an additional 500k for each defending player is rather messy. It also makes wardeccing an alliance like GoonSwarm financially impossible even by a well-organized group like Noir. Corporations and alliances should be categorized in brackets depending on size with each a fixed warbill but with modifiers for going after corporation in a different size-bracket.

Something like [1-25 10M ISK], [25-100 50M ISK], [100-500 250M ISK], [500->no limit 1B ISK] the multiplier is 2 for each bracket you go up, and 5 for each bracket you go down. These are just some possible numbers.

GCC pop-ups for logis and gankers
All these shenanigans are likely to be solved when they can be deactivated through the esc-menu

CCP shielding carebear corporations in high-sec

The only legitimate reason for someone to start an corporation is because they want to creating something bigger then one single pilot can achieve (no matter how many alts he can prop it up with). It should be about holding assets like a POS, dominating a low-sec system, taking on major alliances in null or building a home in WH

But the thing is that by doing so, you ACCEPT that through your corporation you become vulnerable to legitimized war in high-sec. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen, and stay in NPC corporations. If your corporation doesn't have the means, either financially or military, to keep its pilots and assets secure, it simply has no right to exist and thus should fall to natural selection

You want to be big? You are a possible target! You're too weak/greedy/poor/stupid to defend yourself? You become prey!

EVE is just littered with no-good, 'more-alts-then-players' vanity corporations and I think they are detrimental to the newbie experience. It doesn't help them in any way to overcome EVE's steep learning curve. Too many newbies get sucked into these empty shells consisting of uncaring individuals messing about, thus burning out new players before they ever learn about the proper corporations out there

That's why high-sec warfare, in the form of racketeers and mercs, are a vital part of the gameplay. They are the foxes taking out the weak and sick rabbits that otherwise form a health-risk for EVE.

This is why I also think there should be a much higher bar for founding and maintaining a corporation, so the good workerbees don't have to sift through so much rubbish to join a decent hive and the wannabe dictator-CEOs remain stuck in NPC corporations.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#135 - 2012-03-30 16:54:16 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
EVE is just littered with no-good, 'more-alts-then-players' vanity corporations and I think they are detrimental to the newbie experience. It doesn't help them in any way to overcome EVE's steep learning curve. Too many newbies get sucked into these empty shells consisting of uncaring individuals messing about, thus burning out new players before they ever learn about the proper corporations out there

That's why high-sec warfare, in the form of racketeers and mercs, are a vital part of the gameplay. They are the foxes taking out the weak and sick rabbits that otherwise form a health-risk for EVE.

This is why I also think there should be a much higher bar for founding and maintaining a corporation, so the good workerbees don't have to sift through so much rubbish to join a decent hive and the wannabe dictator-CEOs remain stuck in NPC corporations.


I never thought of it like that but its perfectly true.

Its a good test of character to all those involved when a wardec hits.

Do they go out and fight

Do they sit camped in station mouthing off in local

Or do they log off for a week and play Minecraft

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
ZANE VOIDSTALKER
Space Wizards.
Tactical Narcotics Team
#136 - 2012-03-30 20:02:58 UTC

Hey Zane o/

One of my guys fought your crew 1 v 8 [or more] and our logi couldn't keep up with your 45 ec-drones because we "forgot" to undock the ECCM casting alt.You decided to forgo the extra drone dps. Had we planned a bit better, he'd proly have done decent against you guys. We all had fun and it was nice to see you're one of the few groups who don't run away from gangs with logi or cry about it when you lose a ship. Neither do we.

"Everybody has logi in hi-sec naow!!!" is the universal cry for change from merc contracts channel these days.

Just wanted to add they [the round table] are asking people who have spent years training max skills for a hulk/Orca to remain docked or not play because the mercs wanna shoot them. "well, ya ofc!"

alpha > ewar > cap war > logi order of importance and effectiveness imo

Learn to fit and learn to determine/estimate ehp on hostile ships.


exactly mate there are ways around everything in this game. you win some you lose some. but the constant cry about changing when will it stop. and as far as troll give it a rest some of us would like to have a real conversation about the direction of the game. act like an adult for once in your life.
VegasMirage
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#137 - 2012-04-02 06:58:23 UTC
ZANE VOIDSTALKER wrote:

Hey Zane o/

One of my guys fought your crew 1 v 8 [or more] and our logi couldn't keep up with your 45 ec-drones because we "forgot" to undock the ECCM casting alt.You decided to forgo the extra drone dps. Had we planned a bit better, he'd proly have done decent against you guys. We all had fun and it was nice to see you're one of the few groups who don't run away from gangs with logi or cry about it when you lose a ship. Neither do we.

"Everybody has logi in hi-sec naow!!!" is the universal cry for change from merc contracts channel these days.

Just wanted to add they [the round table] are asking people who have spent years training max skills for a hulk/Orca to remain docked or not play because the mercs wanna shoot them. "well, ya ofc!"

alpha > ewar > cap war > logi order of importance and effectiveness imo

Learn to fit and learn to determine/estimate ehp on hostile ships.


exactly mate there are ways around everything in this game. you win some you lose some. but the constant cry about changing when will it stop. and as far as troll give it a rest some of us would like to have a real conversation about the direction of the game. act like an adult for once in your life.


Uh, what troll? everything I said was what I think, soooo perhaps you need to check your troll meter n get that fixed willya!!!

no more games... it's real this time!!!
Devore Sekk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#138 - 2012-04-02 09:17:18 UTC
Interesting listen. Everything else aside, I think the most interesting point, and best answer to "why don't you just go to low sec or 0.0 to shoot people" was the distinction between how wars work in 0.0 and how they work (or should work) in hisec, which seems obvious, but probably isn't.

And just so I can sit on both sides of the fence, listen to 42:20. Wow. I'm glad this Skunkworks guy isn't in charge of anything. In case you're wondering about reason #104 why players don't care to leave NPC corps. To summarize: "so yeah, we wardeced some noob corp, but we got caught outnumbered, so rather than fight (or run away) and learn from the experience, we blatantly exploited mechanics and did shenanigans, and it was really funny to watch".
Devore Sekk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2012-04-02 10:47:37 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
However, there already exists a collection of safeties that generally skew game play in favor of the victims. Aside from flipping the flipper's own cans, the person who gets flipped also has fifteen minutes to bring his whole corporation upon the flipper. Aside from being able to suicide-gank a person who has blown up his ship, a player who lost a ship to a suicide-gank has a whole month to track down his killer and destroy him without police intervention (on top of CONCORD immediately destroying the ganker's ship). Et cetera.

/etc/


That's rather patronizing. And you know this.

First, pre-ganking the ganker? You know how ganks are gone. The target has 2-3 seconds, at most, to spot a new ship on grid, determine that it is a gank ship, decide that it is a likely ganker, lock and then gank the would-be ganker with a ship they have standing by just for that purpose, and able of performing this task, before Concord arrives. Then, of course, sit there and take it from Concord. They have to do what Concord is not able to. Really?

And then, they have a month, a WHOLE month! to gank the ganker back, which is really just rubbing salt into the wound. The miner, or industrialist, has to track down the ganker, who is almost always a disposable alt, or living in 0.0, then stage a successful attack. By himself. You have the gank, a profitable venture when done even half-assedly, and the counter-gank, a profitless, futile, and economically self-defeating epeen-stroking gesture, which, I imagine, must be the opposite of fun, for anyone who has actually tried to do this.

None of the proposed mechanics, at FanFest or at this "round table", address any of this. Gankers will continue to gank (although only one ship at a time), and counter-ganking continues to be pointless.

I'm perfectly fine if this is what CCP wants. I'm not a mad bro. I want people to fight, because with wars, EVE is just a terrible, if pretty, PvE game. But you can't sit there and say gankees have all these options and things they could do, because in practice, they don't.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#140 - 2012-04-02 11:07:42 UTC
think im starting to get the jist of this if indead you guys have talked about the fact of negative sec status being able to be aggressed and enguaged by the high sec dwealer anytime they wish without penalty to the law abiding character then im happy the biggest prob with griefers and pirates in high sec is that other cant do bugger all until ythere fired upon by that time its far to late for the law abiding citizen to do bugger all about it.

so yeah if high sec rules get changed that anyone can legaly kill a negative sec player at any time without penalty except possibly there ship they used in the first place ide say yeah thats a very good start on the "carebear" side