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New dev blog: Changes to War Mechanics

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Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#261 - 2012-03-29 21:45:58 UTC
Karim alRashid wrote:
"Once you’re an ally, you’re committed to the war until it ends."

I don't think this is a good design.
In fact you're not allies, sharing a common goal, you are a contractor, a hired mercenary.

Such contracts should have a term. At the end of the term, both parties choose to continue or not the contract.


Some more thoughts on the subject.

My understanding is that this mechanisms is targeted at the mercenary profession. In my opinion (actual mercenaries may confirm or deny), the mercenary corps are agnostic about the goals of the corporation that hires them - they are after the money and the PvP - and that's it. Hence, I assume it wouldn't be acceptable for them to be dragged in a long, boring war that would potentially prevent them from taking other, possibly more profitable and/or interesting contracts. The lack of commitment is the natural modus operandi of the mercenaries. Hence, they should have the option to exit a continuing war.

On the other hand, mercenaries should have incentive to actually perform their duties. This could be achieved by matching the payment with the results in the War Report, in a flexible manner, with several methods of doing so, for example:

a) a single payment of XXX million ISK at the end of contract
b) XXX ISK at the beginning of contract, YYY at end of contract
c) XXX ISK upon inflicting YYY billion ISK damage
etc.

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
Takoten Yaken
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#262 - 2012-03-29 21:46:33 UTC
Dirk Space wrote:
I have no war stories, it's not how I play this game.

If someone has a problem with me, I talk to them and make sure I understand why they feel that way then come to a mutually acceptable solution.

Having a mechanic in game that allows people to destroy the enjoyment of others, on a whim, and that is all war decs are, should be removed.

i have a problem with your opinion on wardecs

please talk to me and find me a mutually acceptable solution that allows me to butcher you like swine
Celebris Nexterra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2012-03-29 21:46:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Celebris Nexterra
Ok I just typed out a long reply to this thread, and when I clicked post I got an error saying I had a previously saved draft for this thread... where the hell do I find that draft?
Avila Cracko
#264 - 2012-03-29 21:51:17 UTC
Celebris Nexterra wrote:
Ok I just typed out a long reply to this thread, and when I clicked post I got an error saying I had a previously saved draft for this thread... where the hell do I find that draft?


When you go to reply you have last saved draft at the bottom, but i think its overwritten when you wrote that post.

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Purple Madness
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2012-03-29 21:54:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Purple Madness
1) What stops people from putting the 2 alt characters on each of their active accounts into their corp to boost wardec cost?


2) What stops spammed buddy trials/other trial offers from spamming characters to boost wardec cost?
gfldex
#266 - 2012-03-29 21:54:40 UTC
Dirk Space wrote:
Having a mechanic in game that allows people to destroy the enjoyment of others, on a whim, and that is all war decs are, should be removed.


Why? That's the problem with your reasoning. You make false statements (you can very well avoid wars simply by staying in NPC corps) and you don't provide any arguments to show that your demands have any justification beyond: "But but but I DONT LIKE IT!!!".

How exactly do you think are the devs going to pay any attention to that?

The reason why so many "grief-wars" happen is a broken game mechanics. The only parties that don't avoid wars right now by utilising decshields are the Three-RL-friends-with-less-then-2MSP-corps. I do not envy them. Anybody else is hiding under a dec shield. Yet I believe we can go back to meaningful wars by going back to a time where wars where working. If targets that have the SP to fight back are available many of those "grief-wars" will vanish. It's simply no fun to declare a war against corps that wont undock. If you force players to declare war on corps that don't got the knowledge to use a decshield you get exactly that.

In EVE whining backfires.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#267 - 2012-03-29 21:54:52 UTC
Celebris Nexterra wrote:
Ok I just typed out a long reply to this thread, and when I clicked post I got an error saying I had a previously saved draft for this thread... where the hell do I find that draft?


Click on the highlighted word "draft". It will suggest to replace your post with the saved draft.

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
Danny Centauri
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#268 - 2012-03-29 21:59:27 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Danny Centauri wrote:
Inferno - Fueled by the tears of carebears.

Have to admit the amount of ********™ in this thread is quite impressive on the side of the carebears. Apparently the phrase adapt or die doesn't apply if it makes you sad Ugh.

If you can't handle a war, leave the corporation. NPC corporations can not be war dec'd and are full of friendly people. If that isn't enough then start to form a corporation within said NPC corporation (after all for most people corp is just a chat channel which you can create in game anyway). This should cover the vast majority of cases of casual players there are bound to be loads of inventive ways of surviving that will come up which is how it should be.

If you are a more serious PvE or indy corporation then awesome you have ISK right, if not then you are really bad at EVE or actually casual players. Hire mercs! Its quite simple and the new system will increase competition in the merc industry and drive down prices as people try to get all the new contracts.

Honestly EVE is meant to be difficult it doesnt matter whether you are in highsec or in 0.0 there should always remain risk, and yes I do a lot of indy stuff yet I still believe this is the right way forward. Without war in EVE the market will remain stagnant these mechanics increase the velocity of money which is good for industry players meaning faster turn over of products.

Mercs get contract --> Spend on ships --> You sell ships --> You profit.

EVE is a life cycle some times you end up on the **** end of it... deal with it.


Warning: Carebear tear may be flamable.


So, Null Bear, will you continue hiding in your Mega Corp, immune from War Decs?

Yes?

That's what I thought.


Checks size of corp... 1 member. Checks indy corp... nope once again not a null mega corp. Nope don't think so.

Using multiple alts for different tasks give me an advantage I will admit if some day my indy operations are severely damaged by the new war mechanics I'll move to NPC corps with indy characters with the rest of the guys in corp.

If players can't adapt then I hope CCP sticks with their guns as EVE doesn't need them, leaving indy profit to the PvPers that do it on the side to further their ability to blow stuff up. Dumbing down something like this at the core of EVE would result in a diluted world and once step closer to another WOW.

EVE is hard, and it was designed that way. Get over it.

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#269 - 2012-03-29 22:01:20 UTC
Dirk Space wrote:

Having a mechanic in game that allows people to destroy the enjoyment of others, on a whim, and that is all war decs are, should be removed.


How exactly wardecs destroy the enjoyment of others?

Being wardecced or wardeccing yourself allows you to fight in the Empire, with all the convenient stations to dock and rep, without the nasty bubbles and caps/supercaps, with the abundance of supplies and replacement ships.

Don't you enjoy fighting with other people?

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
Celebris Nexterra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#270 - 2012-03-29 22:02:57 UTC
Avila Cracko wrote:
Celebris Nexterra wrote:
Ok I just typed out a long reply to this thread, and when I clicked post I got an error saying I had a previously saved draft for this thread... where the hell do I find that draft?


When you go to reply you have last saved draft at the bottom, but i think its overwritten when you wrote that post.


What the ****??? **** that!! It took me 20 minutes to compose that reply!

New request: in the stead of my intelligently composed reply, **** the forum reply system, post what I click to post goddammit.
gfldex
#271 - 2012-03-29 22:06:26 UTC  |  Edited by: gfldex
Karim alRashid wrote:

My understanding is that this mechanisms is targeted at the mercenary profession. In my opinion (actual mercenaries may confirm or deny), the mercenary corps are agnostic about the goals of the corporation that hires them - they are after the money and the PvP - and that's it. Hence, I assume it wouldn't be acceptable for them to be dragged in a long, boring war that would potentially prevent them from taking other, possibly more profitable and/or interesting contracts. The lack of commitment is the natural modus operandi of the mercenaries. Hence, they should have the option to exit a continuing war.


Not really. First the money is terrible. If you spend the same time ratting then chasing war targets you do way better with rats. The problem any Merc corp got are leaving members. If they get bored they leave. The new system is going to make it worse actually because you can't easily fake "contracts" anymore.

Quote:

a) a single payment of XXX million ISK at the end of contract
b) XXX ISK at the beginning of contract, YYY at end of contract
c) XXX ISK upon inflicting YYY billion ISK damage


It's neither needed nor useful to formalise it. You show that you are able to use your guns. If you failed to reach your objectives you wont get any money (being terribad at PvP wont scare anybody). In the other case informal payments will do. In fact it's better to leave it informal because it creates better gameplay. I remember a case where some merc got a premium from a T2 BPO holder (they be rich). Can save you a lot of ISK in the long run and it makes a better story. How would you govern that with a formal system? And let's face it. Most of the mercs that come to aid folk will work for free anyway. Because of their members, you know.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Karah Serrigan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#272 - 2012-03-29 22:13:42 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:

Q: Everything on market now?
A: More or less. Basically, everything that exists, is published and has a meta level is on the market now.


Is there a reason why you change that? As i see it, contracts allow for scams, have higher fees (isk sink) and are not as easily abused by bots as the market.
And the upside is only easier price tracking, which can be argued to be a bad thing too.

I dont see why you would do that :(
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2012-03-29 22:16:00 UTC
It looks good, there is just one more thing I would like to see.

Add a timer to joining multiple corps in succession when leaving a war. First time? Fine, no problem, but do it more then twice a week and you can only join NPC corps, and are locked into that corp for a week.
Takoten Yaken
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#274 - 2012-03-29 22:16:29 UTC
Karah Serrigan wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

Q: Everything on market now?
A: More or less. Basically, everything that exists, is published and has a meta level is on the market now.


Is there a reason why you change that? As i see it, contracts allow for scams, have higher fees (isk sink) and are not as easily abused by bots as the market.
And the upside is only easier price tracking, which can be argued to be a bad thing too.

I dont see why you would do that :(

because contracts are a horrid interface and everyone hates them
RC Denton
Shazaam Industries
#275 - 2012-03-29 22:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: RC Denton
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
RC Denton wrote:
I've always thought that the financial side of PVP was undervalued. In this case corp A can wardec corp B by paying a bribe to CONCORD. Corp B should have the option to pay a higher bribe to invalidate the war. The two sides should be able to keep bidding until one gives up and either there is a war, or not. That way corps who deal more with the financial side of EVE rather than the combat side of EVE have parity with the combat corps.

Yes there's the mercenary option, but that mechanic is not very well defined.



I hate the new forums with a passion. Screws up posts, double posts, drops posts, but never manages to post what you asked it to.

So the side that makes more money wins. As many of these industrials have stated, they don't make that much money. Me, I just sell Plex on the market. Who do you think will last longer?


If the indy corp doesn't make much money then they aren't doing well at pvp and can't shield themselves from the dec. Sucks to be them. RMT though unbalances all sorts of things and I don't think it's taken into account with several mechanics so it's difficult to use as an argument for or against.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#276 - 2012-03-29 22:29:42 UTC
Avila Cracko wrote:

In 99% of the cases corp/person is war deced because you know that they/he cant defend itself and/or because you want to ruin his game and/or because he is not playing it the way the way you want it to.


Citation?

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
gfldex
#277 - 2012-03-29 22:36:57 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
So the side that makes more money wins. As many of these industrials have stated, they don't make that much money. Me, I just sell Plex on the market. Who do you think will last longer?


The side that wins the war wins. ISK may help but it don't has to. And industrials make a killing if they are industrials. Most of them get it wrong and become miners. Botting pretty much killed that profession. That is subject to change and I can't wait to get the dust of my Hulks.

You imply that you win the war just because you go after industrials. If you force them to learn some of them will. Other will drop back into NPC corps. Before we had decshields we had plenty of miner corps (with real persons behind the mining laser), so it was working for them back then. It's ofc hard to tell but it's very well possible that the decshields hurt the miners more then anybody else because it made botting easier.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#278 - 2012-03-29 22:38:34 UTC
Purple Madness wrote:
1) What stops people from putting the 2 alt characters on each of their active accounts into their corp to boost wardec cost?


2) What stops spammed buddy trials/other trial offers from spamming characters to boost wardec cost?


1) Nothing. That's why the costs need to have dimishing returns as you boost your corp count. Instead of costing it as COST = CONSTANT * N, where N = # of members in corp, it needs to be some variant of COST = CONSTANT * N^1/4 - which scales up rapidly at first, then tails off.

Linear scaling, N=10k is 10k as expensive as N=1.
Sqrt() scaling, N=10k vs N=1 is a 100:1 ratio
N^1/3 is a 21.5:1 ratio
N^1/4 is a 10:1 ratio

So by going with N ^ 1/4, the cost difference between wardec'ing a very small corp vs a very large corp will only be about 10x (one order of magnitude).

2) Supposedly, the devs have said that they're not going to count "trial" alts in the count.

They need to also not count any expired accounts, and use a 7 or 14 day moving average to calculate the costs.
Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
#279 - 2012-03-29 22:47:50 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Purple Madness wrote:
1) What stops people from putting the 2 alt characters on each of their active accounts into their corp to boost wardec cost?


2) What stops spammed buddy trials/other trial offers from spamming characters to boost wardec cost?


1) Nothing. That's why the costs need to have dimishing returns as you boost your corp count. Instead of costing it as COST = CONSTANT * N, where N = # of members in corp, it needs to be some variant of COST = CONSTANT * N^1/4 - which scales up rapidly at first, then tails off.

Linear scaling, N=10k is 10k as expensive as N=1.
Sqrt() scaling, N=10k vs N=1 is a 100:1 ratio
N^1/3 is a 21.5:1 ratio
N^1/4 is a 10:1 ratio

So by going with N ^ 1/4, the cost difference between wardec'ing a very small corp vs a very large corp will only be about 10x (one order of magnitude).

2) Supposedly, the devs have said that they're not going to count "trial" alts in the count.

They need to also not count any expired accounts, and use a 7 or 14 day moving average to calculate the costs.

CCP listen to this, it the best approach to costs and balances out the effects of 8000 pilot alliances deccing 10 man corps.
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
#280 - 2012-03-29 22:54:43 UTC
Danny Centauri wrote:

EVE is hard, and it was designed that way. Get over it.


This gets to the core of the problem.. many of us do not see this as making EvE hard... we see it as making it easier for griefers. Mechanic changes like this just feel like they are saying 'hrm, the pew pewers are having too rough of a time, we should make the game easier for them' while making it harder on PvE and indy players. This represents a robbing of paul to pay peter, when they should be finding something that makes things more interesting all around.