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Request for clarification on harassment policy

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Li Malak
Perkone
Caldari State
#81 - 2012-03-29 11:10:50 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:

You do need to report it. We do not have a crystal ball that tells us when a rule is violated. In that sense we act like a police force would: we act if something is reported or when it happens right under our noses, but if it is not reported it will not be acted upon. Every petition sent in where people are issuing real life threats have been acted upon.


Homonoia,
This part
GM Homonoia wrote:
the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

Is a very dangerous policy. I have seen posts on this forum that state the forum software "makes me want to kill myself.' /sarc" The context makes it entirely plain that it is a sarcastic comment.
I have petitioned it, as you request, but a 100% nothing is a joke policy means that you are reporting someone to their local police for such a post? That seems a poor policy.
Tei Lin
Bit Ninjas
#82 - 2012-03-29 11:14:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tei Lin
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
[quote=Bubanni]
Things like publishing evemails that have tears but no hints of RL, and publically ridiculing them in an attempt to make people feel like ****, fall in the middle ground. I would guess in most cases not allowed, if they report or petition it. I would also suggest it is an ******* thing to do and should be avoided, regardless of the likelihood to get banned.


Sorry I trimmed your statement, but I wanted to focus on this one point. My interpretation is that as long as no real life consequence or threat is made, sharing "tears" or publishing in-game communications between players is fair game regardless of the medium - as long as the consequences stay in the magic box.

So it would be OK to post the eve mails publicly, as long as I don't post information relevant to their real life OR encourage action that would solicit bodily/RL harm to the player.

Again, this is only my interpretation.
Zora'e
#83 - 2012-03-29 11:16:57 UTC
Look guys, if your in game world is so intimately tied to your real life world that something happening in the game would entice you to hurt yourself in real life.... maybe you should consider having a few long talks with a decent therapist while you take a few months off from the game.

If your in game world is so tied to your real life world that you would seek to hurt someone in real life over in game stuff.... maybe you should consider having a few long talks with a decent therapist as well.

There is a point where we as Adults, and Young Adults need to remember that this is a game. If you can't disconnect from it for one reason or another.. you need to uninstall the game for a while and work on yourself and healing what is wrong within yourself that encourages you to over connect with the game.

I'm not being a hypocrite here. Been a few times where I have had to step back from the game for a while because I was getting entirely too wrapped up in it. Remember. It's a game. If something bad happens, meh.. laugh it off, take a break or go watch a movie or something. Life is way too short to let something as silly as a game, ruin your hour, day, week, month, year or life. It's just a game. It's not real.

I won't say you are stupid, but you're not exactly on the Zombie menu either.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#84 - 2012-03-29 11:24:34 UTC  |  Edited by: GM Homonoia
Townsend Harris wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:


You answered your own question there. How would you like to live in a living hell? That said, as long as it remains in The Magic Circle we are very lenient in what we allow, as all of you are well aware. This does not give you the right to be anti-social just because you enjoy tormenting others.

Wait a second..Anti Social? Like blowing up other peoples space pixels? Saying mean stuff in local?
I appreciate that being a GM is tough but really it seems like everytime you post here the policy gets more and more fuzzy and less and less eve-y.
There are in game actions, legitimate actions such as AFK cloaking, 24/7 'Hell Camps", Suicide Ganking and so on, all things I've participated in, designed to make other players in game lives a 'living hell'.


All of that is part of the rules of The Magic Circle. Simple in game tactics. Creating a living hell by using a person's real life information (nationality, gender, etc) is not allowed. Thus suicide ganking is ok, en mass proclamation that a German player is a nazi (infamous German nationalistic political group) and typing swasticas to that player is not ok. I hope that distinction is quite clear.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2012-03-29 11:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Degren
So...if I want to trash talk, I have to roleplay.

Got it.

Edit: POD YOURSELF

Second edit: But *only* in game, guy

Hello, hello again.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#86 - 2012-03-29 11:31:01 UTC
Tei Lin wrote:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
[quote=Bubanni]
Things like publishing evemails that have tears but no hints of RL, and publically ridiculing them in an attempt to make people feel like ****, fall in the middle ground. I would guess in most cases not allowed, if they report or petition it. I would also suggest it is an ******* thing to do and should be avoided, regardless of the likelihood to get banned.


Sorry I trimmed your statement, but I wanted to focus on this one point. My interpretation is that as long as no real life consequence or threat is made, sharing "tears" or publishing in-game communications between players is fair game regardless of the medium - as long as the consequences stay in the magic box.

So it would be OK to post the eve mails publicly, as long as I don't post information relevant to their real life OR encourage action that would solicit bodily/RL harm to the player.

Again, this is only my interpretation.

It is a little bit of an unclear ground to me. There are cases where the "tears" sort of constitute real-life information - namely the information that the player writing the message is real-life upset. In such cases using that upset to make them even more upset - for real - comes close to RL harm. I am not sure I express this clearly. But personally in addition to thinking it is a crap thing to do, I would not count on CCP thinking it's just fine, either.
Shar Tegral
#87 - 2012-03-29 11:31:41 UTC
Degren wrote:
So...if I want to trash talk, I have to roleplay.

Got it.

Playing chicken with the GM's hmmmm?

Why don't you go do something safer like crawling around in traffic.
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2012-03-29 11:32:35 UTC
Shar Tegral wrote:
Degren wrote:
So...if I want to trash talk, I have to roleplay.

Got it.

Playing chicken with the GM's hmmmm?

Why don't you go do something safer like crawling around in traffic.


I believe that was a suggestion to kill myself, sir.

Hello, hello again.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#89 - 2012-03-29 11:32:55 UTC
Degren wrote:
So...if I want to trash talk, I have to roleplay.

Got it.

Edit: POD YOURSELF

Second edit: But *only* in game, guy


Section 4 of our ToS:

"You may not use “role-playing” as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy."

Pod yourself is, of course, perfectly ok.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2012-03-29 11:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Degren
GM Homonoia wrote:
Degren wrote:
So...if I want to trash talk, I have to roleplay.

Got it.

Edit: POD YOURSELF

Second edit: But *only* in game, guy


Section 4 of our ToS:

"You may not use “role-playing” as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy."

Pod yourself is, of course, perfectly ok.


I meant like uh...what's it called. "You lowsy Amarrian scum" or something equally lame

Edit: But thanks for the clarification...I'm going to assume "POD YOURSELF IRL" is a no-no, even though we don't...y'know...have pods. Or clones.

Hello, hello again.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#91 - 2012-03-29 11:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Degren wrote:
So...if I want to trash talk, I have to roleplay.

As a roleplayer, I have to say that for me, what really separates a roleplayer in EVE from someone who merely plays a role (to the extent that if you play EVE you cannot avoid doing so) is that roleplayers are more picky about the character/player distinction. I would expect an actual roleplayer to be less likely to harass someone to produce player tears, and to back off from verbal abuse the instant it becomes clear that the other side got upset for real, not just acting upset for the sake of banter. For me, the fact brought up in the Mittani discussions that he was an experienced roleplayer made him more responsible for what he said - because an actual roleplayer should be better, not worse, at separating between their ingame and offgame personas. It is people who do not roleplay in the sense that this distinction is in their minds all the time when they play that more easily confuse the two.

(Not saying no roleplayer ever used RP as an excuse to be a dickhead. That definitely happens. But when they do it, they know what they are doing, and should not be excused for it. ;))
Li Malak
Perkone
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-03-29 11:35:31 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Townsend Harris wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:


You answered your own question there. How would you like to live in a living hell? That said, as long as it remains in The Magic Circle we are very lenient in what we allow, as all of you are well aware. This does not give you the right to be anti-social just because you enjoy tormenting others.

Wait a second..Anti Social? Like blowing up other peoples space pixels? Saying mean stuff in local?
I appreciate that being a GM is tough but really it seems like everytime you post here the policy gets more and more fuzzy and less and less eve-y.
There are in game actions, legitimate actions such as AFK cloaking, 24/7 'Hell Camps", Suicide Ganking and so on, all things I've participated in, designed to make other players in game lives a 'living hell'.


All of that is part of the rules of The Magic Circle. Simple in game tactics. Creating a living hell by using a person's real life information (nationality, gender, etc) is not allowed. Thus suicide ganking is ok, en mass proclamation that a German player is a **** (infamous German nationalistic political group) and typing swasticas to that player is not ok. I hope that distinction is quite clear.


It remains okay to type swastikas to imply someone has opinions similar to the NDSP correct? But only until the target claims to be german? I am confused. CCP has programed in the swastika icon as a text-picture in game and 卍forums卍, so clearly there are some proper uses for it, but I am unclear on the line here.
Doddy
Excidium.
#93 - 2012-03-29 11:38:43 UTC
Tei Lin wrote:


So the intent matters? Good to know CCP is healthy enough of a company to have enough manpower to take each case and determine the intent of the actions involved. (That's sarcasm)

Putting aside areas of clear intent (such as Alliance Panel gaffe), is it ok to blow someone up repeatedly because they acted like an idiot on EVE radio?

And will I get banned for blowing up The Wiz today because my intent was interpreted as harassment yet all I really wanted was the money?

You see the problem with this now?


Dude you are embarassing the rest of us who didn't want Mittens banned with your terrible posting. Mittens was not banned for anything done with spaceships. There is no policy change, you can blow up anyone you like as often as you like so long as its not noobs in starter systems. If you want to start a thread make it about ccp choosing in game sanctions for out of game actions.
Shar Tegral
#94 - 2012-03-29 11:45:34 UTC
Shar Tegral wrote:
Why don't you go do something safer like crawling around in traffic.

Degren wrote:
I believe that was a suggestion to kill myself, sir.

The truth is that you are going to die. Some day, some how, some when. In your case it will likely be due to your own actions, your own overblown sense of intellect. Overly clever people don't get to live longer by being overly clever.

Now that reality has been discussed, the actual point is: Sophistry never wins.

You may think that you are clever and can talk yourself/your point into pretzels but the truth is you are powerless in this situation. All the talking in the world won't change the fact that if you step over the "perceived" line, you'll be banned. Once you are banned you are no longer a player or a problem. You are just some jerk pleading to be let back in.

I.e. I live in a litigious society. Everywhere I turn people commonly say, "let x happen, I'll sue." They don't understand two simple things:

1 - To "win" you have some demonstrable value. If you can't, you get crap as a monetary reward.

2 - Pain and suffering involves actual Pain and Suffering. No one who has ever had it is willing to have more of it for cash or to make a point. Barring total mental defectives that is.

So, for this analogy, go ahead & play duck and weave with the GMs. In my experience, which is long, you only get to screw up once and then it is game over for you. They still get to go to work. The only change for them will be one less jerk to ban.
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2012-03-29 11:53:23 UTC
Shar Tegral wrote:
So much drivel


You still told my sensitive self to go play in traffic. This is clearly an intent to have me inflict grievous bodily harm upon my person.

PS: wut? I was asking for clarification. Quite succinctly, actually.

Hello, hello again.
Townsend Harris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#96 - 2012-03-29 11:54:57 UTC
Shar Tegral
You may think that you are clever and can talk yourself/your point into pretzels but the truth is [b wrote:
you are powerless in this situation.[/b] All the talking in the world won't change the fact that if you step over the "perceived" line, you'll be banned. Once you are banned you are no longer a player or a problem. You are just some jerk pleading to be let back in.


See and this is a problem, wheres the line now? Do I have to back off if a victim of a suicide gank says "I'll IRL kill myself if you blow up my ship!!"
CanI a whole titian blob be stopped because some one on the other side declares "I'll kill myself if you take my sov!".

The recent kerfluffle was about words but it was words encouraging in game action, that had a implied out of game consequence. Same with the two above situations. Seeing as how people invest time, effort and money into playing the game, knowing what will and will not get you banned is pretty important ESPECIALLY since players are powerless with regards to the GM/Player relationship.

I will also say that despite some confusing answers I really do appreciate GM Homonoia's continued answers here.
Doddy
Excidium.
#97 - 2012-03-29 11:56:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
So Sensational wrote:

All ingame actions have a real life effect on the victims, if completely legit actions are bannable based on the results (I.e. consistently "harassing" someone within the magic circle which leads to his suicide) or based on the intent of the perpetrator (GM Thought Police), you're setting a precedent where we can't do anything in EVE for the risk of being banned.

Luckily, this is a high profile case where CCP was forced to conduct damage control, and will likely and hopefully have no impact on the way the GMs moderate the game in the future. I'm sure you can't acknowledge this second paragraph as a CCP employee though, I certainly wouldn't P


Unless every ganker states they are doing it to cause out of game harm there is no issue.
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-03-29 11:56:41 UTC
Townsend Harris wrote:
I will also say that despite some confusing answers I really do appreciate GM Homonoia's continued answers here.


Second

Hello, hello again.
Doddy
Excidium.
#99 - 2012-03-29 12:03:29 UTC
Townsend Harris wrote:

See and this is a problem, wheres the line now? Do I have to back off if a victim of a suicide gank says "I'll IRL kill myself if you blow up my ship!!"


As long as you are not really dense and answer with something along the lines of "good" or "thats just what i am aimimg for" or type in alliance chat "hey guys this guy says he will kill himself if i blow up is ship, why dont you all come and do it repeatedly" you would be totally fine. If you really want to cover yourself kill him then petition him. The embarassment of having to tell the concerned GM he was making his mental health problems up to try to save his space pixels would be the icing on the cake of a good suicide gank and on the off chance he is telling the truth he might get some help he probably wouldn't have got if you hadn't ganked him.
Tei Lin
Bit Ninjas
#100 - 2012-03-29 12:05:01 UTC
Townsend Harris wrote:
Shar Tegral
You may think that you are clever and can talk yourself/your point into pretzels but the truth is [b wrote:
you are powerless in this situation.[/b] All the talking in the world won't change the fact that if you step over the "perceived" line, you'll be banned. Once you are banned you are no longer a player or a problem. You are just some jerk pleading to be let back in.


See and this is a problem, wheres the line now? Do I have to back off if a victim of a suicide gank says "I'll IRL kill myself if you blow up my ship!!"
CanI a whole titian blob be stopped because some one on the other side declares "I'll kill myself if you take my sov!".

The recent kerfluffle was about words but it was words encouraging in game action, that had a implied out of game consequence. Same with the two above situations. Seeing as how people invest time, effort and money into playing the game, knowing what will and will not get you banned is pretty important ESPECIALLY since players are powerless with regards to the GM/Player relationship.

I will also say that despite some confusing answers I really do appreciate GM Homonoia's continued answers here.


I know you were being facetious but just to clarify, I think the correct course of action would be to report the suicidal statement to CCP (in case it's real) and continue playing the game as normal. A statement of RL bodily harm to yourself is as concerning to CCP as harassment to others.

I don't see players abusing this whole shtick though (regardless of the policy) unless CCP goes completely pants-on-head.