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Request for clarification on harassment policy

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JTK Fotheringham
Ducks in Outer Space
#61 - 2012-03-29 10:43:55 UTC
Vashan Tar wrote:



Also 5 days delay on "immediate" action? Glaciers move faster than that.


That's because we all know this wasn't dealt with like a real EULA/TOS violation. It was a PR problem for CCP, and they waited long enough to see that the story wasn't going to just go away. Then they acted. Those of us who are wise in the ways of political PR disasters unfolding said from the outset this is how it would play out. When you are elected to any office, and you become the story, your term of office is over. Every time.

What's surprising isn't that they took so long, it's that Alexander Gianturco seemed surprised when it did happen - news of his stepping down from the CSM Chair broke only minutes before news of the 30-day ban Dev-blog. I actually think he thought he'd gotten away with it. And if CCP had waited a little longer, maybe he would have. They both basically "blinked" at the same time.

About Roadhouse, I've actually never seen it. What? I guess that leaves me worthy of all sorts of ridicule. Sad
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#62 - 2012-03-29 10:45:48 UTC
Li Malak wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.


This is a complete fabrication, and I assume you know it, since you are an intelligent adult. Anyone who has been playing eve for a few years can point to literally dozens of real-life threats and incitements of real-life threats that CCP has done nothing about. You may deny this, or refuse to comment, here, but I hope you have the courage and basic honesty to address this internally at CCP, and to acknowledge that recent actions are based on PR and personal grudges, not a consistent enforcement of EULA/TOS.


You do need to report it. We do not have a crystal ball that tells us when a rule is violated. In that sense we act like a police force would: we act if something is reported or when it happens right under our noses, but if it is not reported it will not be acted upon. Every petition sent in where people are issuing real life threats have been acted upon.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2012-03-29 10:47:06 UTC
C Genix wrote:
Senior GM claims 'no Juristictian' so someone pulled string for CCP's 'pet player' it would appear

They can't comment on any specific case as this would violate their privacy policy.

All they can do is talking about general cases/procedures/etc. that are applied to all such cases in general. They can't go into any detail on any sanction or action, no matter if it happenes in regarding of this latest case or any other one.

IMO it took them 5 days to talk about possible consequences as this isn't just a player saying such stuff, it's been a CSM member saying such stuff. They mentioned the ban and its duration in public due to the discussion and everything being in public; plus they had to explain why he'd been removed from CSM etc.

But other than that, they just can't go into further details on the whys and whats, etc. even in this case.

Looking for more thoughts? Follow me on Twitter.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#64 - 2012-03-29 10:47:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.


Except, when The Mittani said those things on Fanfest, he wasn't in your precious magic circle. You're applying EULA/TOS to outgame incidents, and I think that is a very slippery slope that CCP should be a lot more clear about.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
C Genix
Genix Family
#65 - 2012-03-29 10:47:50 UTC  |  Edited by: C Genix
You choose not to address your blasphemy......

I'm not sure it 'Christinaises' well but you just said something along the lines

'I AM St Peter gaurdian of Heaven and we are happy that it is a Hell'
Kara Roideater
#66 - 2012-03-29 10:48:32 UTC
Li Malak wrote:

This is a complete fabrication, and I assume you know it, since you are an intelligent adult. Anyone who has been playing eve for a few years can point to literally dozens of real-life threats and incitements of real-life threats that CCP has done nothing about. You may deny this, or refuse to comment, here, but I hope you have the courage and basic honesty to address this internally at CCP, and to acknowledge that recent actions are based on PR and personal grudges, not a consistent enforcement of EULA/TOS.


I can point to numerous murderers who got away with their crimes, therefore no one should be prosecuted for murder anymore even when they are caught red-handed and confess to the crime.
Tei Lin
Bit Ninjas
#67 - 2012-03-29 10:48:32 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Once again another OP fails to understand the issue. The object of the drunken tirade has nothing to do with any of this. There are laws governing what can be intentionally broadcast on an open mic. Even people who play EVE and think the real world doesn't exist are subject to these laws. At my count, three statues in Iceland, and quite possibly half a dozen in the state of Georgia (US) were violated. It doesn't matter how much anyone loves or hates Mitt, or CCP, the Wiz...spaceship games, whatever. If you want to toy with law enforcement, do so at your own risk. They ARE the real world.


Did you even read what I wrote?

The question was, essentially, "what are the harassment policies considering -words-?"

Which GM Homonoia was kind enough to answer. This has nothing to do with Mittens directly, and everything to do with their policy going forward. "Law enforcement of various governments" has no place in this discussion.

Please keep it on topic.
John Python
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2012-03-29 10:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: John Python
Ezurae wrote:
if he was joking its his problem. RL threats are nothing to joke about.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gZ6-6RbSEg

I find that funny and by the sounds on the video so did alot of other people.
JTK Fotheringham
Ducks in Outer Space
#69 - 2012-03-29 10:51:22 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:


You do need to report it. We do not have a crystal ball that tells us when a rule is violated. In that sense we act like a police force would: we act if something is reported or when it happens right under our noses, but if it is not reported it will not be acted upon. Every petition sent in where people are issuing real life threats have been acted upon.


I suspect that's not the image you have among the community who are sick of the rep our game is getting because of the silly volume of out-of-game threats and slurring that gets thrown about on the forums.

For the most part I've dipped out of the forums for a couple of years now because I find the "you disagree with me, fook off and die" posts just depressing to read. I don't bother flagging them because I don't actually believe GMs will do anything about it.

If the CSM were to make this an issue, and ask CCP to press it, do you think there would be a more hardline attitude followed by forum mods?
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2012-03-29 10:51:50 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
Except when The Mittani said those things on Fanfest, he wasn't in your magic circle. You're applying EULA/TOS to outgame incidents, and I think that is a very slippery slope.

He was, by utilizing CCP's communication platform. Like the forums, but in this case it was the live stream. As said hundred times over the last few hours: As such the EULA/TOS did apply.

Looking for more thoughts? Follow me on Twitter.
Serene Repose
#71 - 2012-03-29 10:53:32 UTC
Tei Lin wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Once again another OP fails to understand the issue. The object of the drunken tirade has nothing to do with any of this. There are laws governing what can be intentionally broadcast on an open mic. Even people who play EVE and think the real world doesn't exist are subject to these laws. At my count, three statues in Iceland, and quite possibly half a dozen in the state of Georgia (US) were violated. It doesn't matter how much anyone loves or hates Mitt, or CCP, the Wiz...spaceship games, whatever. If you want to toy with law enforcement, do so at your own risk. They ARE the real world.


Did you even read what I wrote?

The question was, essentially, "what are the harassment policies considering -words-?"

Which GM Homonoia was kind enough to answer. This has nothing to do with Mittens directly, and everything to do with their policy going forward. "Law enforcement of various governments" has no place in this discussion.

Please keep it on topic.

Oh, I'm so sorry. You used all that text to describe two conditions with two different results, one seeming to be lesser of two offenses but receiving MORE of a punishment. Correct me if I'm wrong. Using Mitt's case (which you did) and the fact he got a lesser punishment for a greater crime...which he did...maybe you should, as I said, underSTAND your topic.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#72 - 2012-03-29 10:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Aethlyn wrote:
Tobiaz wrote:
Except when The Mittani said those things on Fanfest, he wasn't in your magic circle. You're applying EULA/TOS to outgame incidents, and I think that is a very slippery slope.

He was, by utilizing CCP's communication platform. Like the forums, but in this case it was the live stream. As said hundred times over the last few hours: As such the EULA/TOS did apply.


So if he'd had done it on Failheap or something, CCP wouldn't have cared? Or if by some chance would know someone player's homeadress and I would sent him a death-threat by post, CCP wouldn't care either?

You see why the 'CCP's communication platform' argument isn't very useful.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Tei Lin
Bit Ninjas
#73 - 2012-03-29 10:57:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tei Lin
JTK Fotheringham wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:


You do need to report it. We do not have a crystal ball that tells us when a rule is violated. In that sense we act like a police force would: we act if something is reported or when it happens right under our noses, but if it is not reported it will not be acted upon. Every petition sent in where people are issuing real life threats have been acted upon.


I suspect that's not the image you have among the community who are sick of the rep our game is getting because of the silly volume of out-of-game threats and slurring that gets thrown about on the forums.

For the most part I've dipped out of the forums for a couple of years now because I find the "you disagree with me, **** off and die" posts just depressing to read. I don't bother flagging them because I don't actually believe GMs will do anything about it.

If the CSM were to make this an issue, and ask CCP to press it, do you think there would be a more hardline attitude followed by forum mods?


I think you will find, unfortunately, that such bile exists on MMO forums no matter where you end up. While this may not be a good explanation or excuse, at least take comfort in this fact.

People with opposing realities, not matter how trivial, will always deem it their prerogative to slander and provoke those with opposite views rather than have good discourse. Take a look at Darius III throughout this whole thing for a good example.

Being able to have good discussions is not the realm of MMO forums.

Edit: or my own postings in some cases. I am not above this bile.
Townsend Harris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-03-29 10:58:01 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER:
However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

wait....the Eve Online EULA/ToS applies to the not game world?????
Tei Lin
Bit Ninjas
#75 - 2012-03-29 11:00:00 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Tei Lin wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Once again another OP fails to understand the issue. The object of the drunken tirade has nothing to do with any of this. There are laws governing what can be intentionally broadcast on an open mic. Even people who play EVE and think the real world doesn't exist are subject to these laws. At my count, three statues in Iceland, and quite possibly half a dozen in the state of Georgia (US) were violated. It doesn't matter how much anyone loves or hates Mitt, or CCP, the Wiz...spaceship games, whatever. If you want to toy with law enforcement, do so at your own risk. They ARE the real world.


Did you even read what I wrote?

The question was, essentially, "what are the harassment policies considering -words-?"

Which GM Homonoia was kind enough to answer. This has nothing to do with Mittens directly, and everything to do with their policy going forward. "Law enforcement of various governments" has no place in this discussion.

Please keep it on topic.

Oh, I'm so sorry. You used all that text to describe two conditions with two different results, one seeming to be lesser of two offenses but receiving MORE of a punishment. Correct me if I'm wrong. Using Mitt's case (which you did) and the fact he got a lesser punishment for a greater crime...which he did...maybe you should, as I said, underSTAND your topic.


Huh?
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
#76 - 2012-03-29 11:00:41 UTC
Tei, Firstly a well written post, you put across your point eloquently

What has been done - has been done.

But that got me thinking.

Hypothetical question: In a game where you don't die - how can you threaten death and make it mean something.
Answer: By affecting the persons RL reality

So on to the situation at Fanfest

I don't think I heard Mittens say to go to this guys house in RL to cause him to commit suicide. Or did he say that? because then would be the correct time in my mind, to ban the guy.

I heard Mittens say that if you harass him IN GAME that he MIGHT react by threatening suicide and allow the in-game actions to affect his RL - as he obviously did with the Goon gank .

To take that to another level - surely it was the gankees extreme interpretation of the situation which lead him to express his desire for suicide and Mittens in his own egocentric way was highlighting the situation as extreme - and then presenting that.
That borders on worrying but as always, the context has to be viewed.

So, CCP
So you don't allow mentally unstable people into the game who have an issue between deciding the difference between reality and the game (because they MIGHT threaten to do something about it IRL) you should introduce a personality test that highlights game addiction and depression factors, and stop them playing.

Mind you - then you would have to stop the psychopaths as well, so that's Goonfleet gone ....

I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#77 - 2012-03-29 11:02:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Bubanni wrote:
One question regarding this... are we allowed to make someones life in eve a living hell? such as always trying to hunt them down, trying to kill their ships and assets (for whatever reason, we might dislike them?) ... If that person then becomes suicidal because of this... or already was, and then acts on it... is it then our fault? or CCP's fault for having such a harsh game? or is it actually the "suiciders" own fault for playing eve in the first place instead of... say WoW

As I interpret what CCP has said so far, yes, generally, you are allowed to kill their ships and assets, to wardec and gank him, and to use everything in your power to blob him etc. What you are definitely not allowed to do is stuff like answer with "lololol, yes you should" when they say they are going to kill themselves (you are supposed to petition the suicide threat instead and not answer). You are allowed to take friends with you when you gank them. You are not allowed to post their evemail about being suicidal and encourage everyone else to attack him so that he will off himself.

Things like publishing evemails that have tears but no hints of RL, and publically ridiculing them in an attempt to make people feel like ****, fall in the middle ground. I would guess in most cases not allowed, if they report or petition it. I would also suggest it is an ******* thing to do and should be avoided, regardless of the likelihood to get banned.

Note that in a case where there already has been a forbidden public call for harassment, your rights to ganking might be reduced, because the target is no longer a random individual player. :)
JTK Fotheringham
Ducks in Outer Space
#78 - 2012-03-29 11:07:37 UTC
Tei Lin wrote:


I think you will find, unfortunately, that such bile exists on MMO forums no matter where you end up. While this may not be a good explanation or excuse, at least take comfort in this fact.

People with opposing realities, not matter how trivial, will always deem it their prerogative to slander and provoke those with opposite views rather than have good discourse. Take a look at Darius III throughout this whole thing for a good example.

Being able to have good discussions is not the realm of MMO forums.

Edit: or my own postings in some cases. I am not above this bile.


That may be true.

But...

EVE's glory is it's sandbox, where in game griefing is part of what makes it fun, and hard to play. I like it.

Surely you'd conceed that the out-of-game bile just coumpounds our image to the wider gaming world, and that if we were a lot more civilized on the forums, we'd be better off?

I just wonder if CCP would be open to explore taking a harder line for the sake of their PR.
Serene Repose
#79 - 2012-03-29 11:07:41 UTC
Tei Lin wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Tei Lin wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Once again another OP fails to understand the issue. The object of the drunken tirade has nothing to do with any of this. There are laws governing what can be intentionally broadcast on an open mic. Even people who play EVE and think the real world doesn't exist are subject to these laws. At my count, three statues in Iceland, and quite possibly half a dozen in the state of Georgia (US) were violated. It doesn't matter how much anyone loves or hates Mitt, or CCP, the Wiz...spaceship games, whatever. If you want to toy with law enforcement, do so at your own risk. They ARE the real world.


Did you even read what I wrote?

The question was, essentially, "what are the harassment policies considering -words-?"

Which GM Homonoia was kind enough to answer. This has nothing to do with Mittens directly, and everything to do with their policy going forward. "Law enforcement of various governments" has no place in this discussion.

Please keep it on topic.

Oh, I'm so sorry. You used all that text to describe two conditions with two different results, one seeming to be lesser of two offenses but receiving MORE of a punishment. Correct me if I'm wrong. Using Mitt's case (which you did) and the fact he got a lesser punishment for a greater crime...which he did...maybe you should, as I said, underSTAND your topic.


Huh?
I knew that would be too hard for you to understand. I should have stuck to one syllable words. My bad.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Townsend Harris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#80 - 2012-03-29 11:10:22 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:


You answered your own question there. How would you like to live in a living hell? That said, as long as it remains in The Magic Circle we are very lenient in what we allow, as all of you are well aware. This does not give you the right to be anti-social just because you enjoy tormenting others.

Wait a second..Anti Social? Like blowing up other peoples space pixels? Saying mean stuff in local?
I appreciate that being a GM is tough but really it seems like everytime you post here the policy gets more and more fuzzy and less and less eve-y.
There are in game actions, legitimate actions such as AFK cloaking, 24/7 'Hell Camps", Suicide Ganking and so on, all things I've participated in, designed to make other players in game lives a 'living hell'.