These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Request for clarification on harassment policy

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Prince Kobol
#21 - 2012-03-29 09:58:53 UTC
Tei Lin wrote:


Despite the trolls I was very sincere in my opening statement so thank you for clarifying.

So, by my interpretation it seems that me and my friends who went after the bounty today are in the clear with regards to the Harassment Policy. And that people calling for us to get banned simply because we're chasing a bounty are misinformed.

Again, thank you for the clarification.

I do take some affront to you questioning my common sense, as I assure you I am not the only one puzzled by the current climate or worried at the direction CCP was heading with this.


By your interpretation... very important part.

See the thing is your interpretation means as much as mine does... zilch.

Also we see that you are trying to be clever and twist words and make out there is some massive conspiracy where as truth be told you are looking more and more ridiculous with each post.

By all means keep it up because

WE LOVE YOU

Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#22 - 2012-03-29 09:59:01 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.
Last night I posted on this forum and someone told me to go kill myself.

How does this play with new interpretations of the EULA/ToS?

I am more than happy to provide details of my diagnosed medical conditions to CCP privately.


Game masters do not moderate our forums, so I cannot answer that. Also, this is no new interpretation, this has always been the case. We have issued many temporary bans for issuing real life threats.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Wukulo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-03-29 09:59:41 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.


This doesn't resolve the situation where all of this takes place inside the magic circle. If player A ganks player B and player B says "Leave me alone or I'm going to kill myself" in local chat but player B is in a freight full of plexs. What do you think is going to happen here? I wouldn't be surprised to see "Great, go ahead we'll loot your plexs" and quite frankly... I wouldn't vilify anyone for that. How is player A supposed to understand that context while in the circle? If it can be joked about there, why does the circle even matter?

You also just created a double standard by suggesting the idea of the magic circle as being in game but then enforcing the in game TOS and EULA at FANFEST which is clearly not in game.

I think your explanation just made things fuzzier to be honest.

Posted on main because I'm not a coward like the rest of you.
Ezurae
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-03-29 10:00:45 UTC
When it comes to the wis ccp clearly stated they will watch the actions players take against him. I doubt they will do anything against ganking him. I'm pretty sure they contacted him and talked with him about everything (checked how he is doing, if it was a serious threat). This is a very special case because he has been called out by the most famous player on eveTV for everyone to see and with all the drama this may have seriously hit the fun he can have in this game... There are literally hundreds of goons and other people out there just to gank him now. CCP can't really take action against the persons who gank him but i'd be surprised if they didnt offer the Wis the option for a name and avatar change.

But if people go ahead and send someone (not just the wis) evemails, convo a person with the clear intent to push someone to suicide (clear harassment and this is always dealt with by ccp) ccp will take action. You can be sure CCP is watching for this behaviour directed against the wis and will take action if people should do such things.

Now when it comes to just ganking people, there is no problem with that, there also is no problem with a bit shittalk (just dont cross the line to harassment..). If people send you an evemail/convo where they say or imply that they will commit suicide you should always take it serious. I dont mean you should always inform the authorities (since its a "joke" most of the time) but you should look for hints in the rest of the evemail and conversations if the person is serious about it or not. Most of the time you can easily distinguish if someone will go ahead and do it or if its just a whine to get stuff back etc.

DO NOT hesitate to report suicide threats through the petition system if you think the player might be serious. I dont know which category would be best, obviously you need a fast reaction time and personally i would use the harassment category for this. If you think a person might be serious, petition it. You got nothing to lose, if he was joking, good. If he was serious you may be able to prevent his death with that petition. If he was joking, I guess at the very least GMs would advice him to not joke about it again.

Sure there is no rule that you have to petition it but as a human you should always try and prevent the death of another human being. Its just the right thing to do....
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#25 - 2012-03-29 10:01:59 UTC
The are no new interpretations, you all are just upset that the old interpretations are suddenly actually enforced in a very visible case. Tough.

As I think this goes (I am sure a GM will correct me if necessary), if someone told you to kill yourself in RL, that would be grounds for reporting them for EULA violation. Similarly, if someone attacks you personally by say (hypothetically!) making allegations about your sexual orientation. CCP probably will not care about your diagnoses; the fact that this might have actually caused you OOG harm is enough. In a mild case of such things, I do not expect the offender would be immediately banned; he would likely be told to not be an ass in the future, and only when he does not learn to use mature language after a million repeats and reports, a ban would be considered.

I also think that reporting just because you can while you yourself consider it just fine for yourself to say similar things is assholish behaviour and should be a bannable offense in itself.
Tei Lin
Bit Ninjas
#26 - 2012-03-29 10:02:01 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Tei Lin wrote:


Despite the trolls I was very sincere in my opening statement so thank you for clarifying.

So, by my interpretation it seems that me and my friends who went after the bounty today are in the clear with regards to the Harassment Policy. And that people calling for us to get banned simply because we're chasing a bounty are misinformed.

Again, thank you for the clarification.

I do take some affront to you questioning my common sense, as I assure you I am not the only one puzzled by the current climate or worried at the direction CCP was heading with this.


By your interpretation... very important part.

See the thing is your interpretation means as much as mine does... zilch.

Also we see that you are trying to be clever and twist words and make out there is some massive conspiracy where as truth be told you are looking more and more ridiculous with each post.

By all means keep it up because

WE LOVE YOU

Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile


I love you too. Although I am most definitely a dude playing a female character - so keep that in mind before you PM me. Although I'm ok with it if you do Blink
Prince Kobol
#27 - 2012-03-29 10:03:01 UTC
Wukulo wrote:

This doesn't resolve the situation where all of this takes place inside the magic circle. If player A ganks player B and player B says "Leave me alone or I'm going to kill myself" in local chat but player B is in a freight full of plexs. What do you think is going to happen here? I wouldn't be surprised to see "Great, go ahead we'll loot your plexs" and quite frankly... I wouldn't vilify anyone for that. How is player A supposed to understand that context while in the circle? If it can be joked about there, why does the circle even matter?

You also just created a double standard by suggesting the idea of the magic circle as being in game but then enforcing the in game TOS and EULA at FANFEST which is clearly not in game.

I think your explanation just made things fuzzier to be honest.


No the explanation is crystal clear.

The fact that you seem to have difficulty understanding is no one faults other then your own.
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#28 - 2012-03-29 10:03:03 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Last night I posted on this forum and someone told me to go kill myself.

How does this play with new interpretations of the EULA/ToS?

I am more than happy to provide details of my diagnosed medical conditions to CCP privately.


Perfectly fine so long as they dont wish RL harm.
How do you judge that?

Wait for a corpse to wash up somewhere?
Ezurae
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-03-29 10:03:49 UTC
Tei Lin wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.


Despite the trolls I was very sincere in my opening statement so thank you for clarifying.

So, by my interpretation it seems that me and my friends who went after the bounty today are in the clear with regards to the Harassment Policy. And that people calling for us to get banned simply because we're chasing a bounty are misinformed.

Again, thank you for the clarification.

I do take some affront to you questioning my common sense, as I assure you I am not the only one puzzled by the current climate or worried at the direction CCP was heading with this.


well if you read the post you can see that the intent matters. And the intent of the persons who put out the bounty is pretty clear. so i wouldnt really count on getting the money because that person who issued the bounty may be banned soon enough.
Wukulo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-03-29 10:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Wukulo
Prince Kobol wrote:
Wukulo wrote:

This doesn't resolve the situation where all of this takes place inside the magic circle. If player A ganks player B and player B says "Leave me alone or I'm going to kill myself" in local chat but player B is in a freight full of plexs. What do you think is going to happen here? I wouldn't be surprised to see "Great, go ahead we'll loot your plexs" and quite frankly... I wouldn't vilify anyone for that. How is player A supposed to understand that context while in the circle? If it can be joked about there, why does the circle even matter?

You also just created a double standard by suggesting the idea of the magic circle as being in game but then enforcing the in game TOS and EULA at FANFEST which is clearly not in game.

I think your explanation just made things fuzzier to be honest.


No the explanation is crystal clear.

The fact that you seem to have difficulty understanding is no one faults other then your own.


Cool, Ad Hominem. Classy.

Care to clarify how its perfectly clear how to act when in the magic circle when some one can just throw certain taboo topics around with out providing any further context or how they didn't just create a double standard? I'm all ears. Provide a well written argument that addresses all the points.

There is A LOT of room for interpretation as to what is "inciting" after some one throws a comment around like. Is the joke inciting? Is continuing to gank the freighter inciting? How do you expect some one to understand that they mean "I'll kill myself in real life" and not in game?

There are a lot of very simple questions that make for a very fuzzy situation that you seem to think so crystal clear.

Posted on main because I'm not a coward like the rest of you.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2012-03-29 10:06:41 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Graic Gabtar wrote:

How do you judge that?

Wait for a corpse to wash up somewhere?


6 years of hate mails sent my way and I still haven't topped myself.
malaire
#32 - 2012-03-29 10:07:27 UTC
Tei Lin wrote:
I did want a definitive answer and asked CCP - so what's your problem?

I should have clarified that I meant: Ask via petition, not with another forum thread. But in this case it worked.

However I do have problem with you claiming that something has changed.

New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else
Ezurae
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-03-29 10:09:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezurae
Wukulo wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Wukulo wrote:

This doesn't resolve the situation where all of this takes place inside the magic circle. If player A ganks player B and player B says "Leave me alone or I'm going to kill myself" in local chat but player B is in a freight full of plexs. What do you think is going to happen here? I wouldn't be surprised to see "Great, go ahead we'll loot your plexs" and quite frankly... I wouldn't vilify anyone for that. How is player A supposed to understand that context while in the circle? If it can be joked about there, why does the circle even matter?

You also just created a double standard by suggesting the idea of the magic circle as being in game but then enforcing the in game TOS and EULA at FANFEST which is clearly not in game.

I think your explanation just made things fuzzier to be honest.


No the explanation is crystal clear.

The fact that you seem to have difficulty understanding is no one faults other then your own.


Cool, Ad Hominem. Classy.

Care to clarify how its perfectly clear how to act when in the magic circle when some one can just through certain taboo topics around with out providing any further context or how they didn't just create a double standard? I'm all ears. Provide a well written argument that addresses all the points.


"Leave me alone or I'm going to kill myself" this is clearly an IRL threat to himself, use the report/petition function to report this. Go ahead ingame and loot his stuff. But dont say things like "go ahead and die" because thats about RL stuff too.

Really its pretty clear. If he was joking it will be his problem to explain it to the authorities. if he didnt you saved him and got the loot without breaking eula or tos

edit: btw if someone threatened you in the forum, just go ahead and report him. if he was joking its his problem. RL threats are nothing to joke about.
Tei Lin
Bit Ninjas
#34 - 2012-03-29 10:09:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tei Lin
Ezurae wrote:
Tei Lin wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.


Despite the trolls I was very sincere in my opening statement so thank you for clarifying.

So, by my interpretation it seems that me and my friends who went after the bounty today are in the clear with regards to the Harassment Policy. And that people calling for us to get banned simply because we're chasing a bounty are misinformed.

Again, thank you for the clarification.

I do take some affront to you questioning my common sense, as I assure you I am not the only one puzzled by the current climate or worried at the direction CCP was heading with this.


well if you read the post you can see that the intent matters. And the intent of the persons who put out the bounty is pretty clear. so i wouldnt really count on getting the money because that person who issued the bounty may be banned soon enough.


Wait, there was no intent to cause harm. My Reading of the GM's response indicated that the reason The Mittani was banned was because he made the connection that "griefing in game" would cause a real life consequence.

Putting a bounty on someones head, by its own merit, has no consequence outside the magic circle and therefore is not harassment.

Edit: this may sound like word play, but I doubt the people involved wish any harm to come to any pilots in eve whatsoever and have not indicated, either implied or otherwise, that this is the goal. The bounty was solely a reaction to what I would deem "magic circle" events. Of course, that's an interpretation left for CCP.
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#35 - 2012-03-29 10:10:32 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Game masters do not moderate our forums, so I cannot answer that. Also, this is no new interpretation, this has always been the case. We have issued many temporary bans for issuing real life threats.
OK, no problem understand that.

So just clear up one thing for me. Does telling a CCP customer who is manic depressive with a suicidal history OOG to kill themselves (forums included) constitute a real life threat?

If so, could you direct my case to the appropriate place I as would appreciate it.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#36 - 2012-03-29 10:11:54 UTC
Wukulo wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.


This doesn't resolve the situation where all of this takes place inside the magic circle. If player A ganks player B and player B says "Leave me alone or I'm going to kill myself" in local chat but player B is in a freight full of plexs. What do you think is going to happen here? I wouldn't be surprised to see "Great, go ahead we'll loot your plexs" and quite frankly... I wouldn't vilify anyone for that. How is player A supposed to understand that context while in the circle? If it can be joked about there, why does the circle even matter?

You also just created a double standard by suggesting the idea of the magic circle as being in game but then enforcing the in game TOS and EULA at FANFEST which is clearly not in game.

I think your explanation just made things fuzzier to be honest.


As I said, i am not going to comment on recent events. That is outside my jurisdiction.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Banderlei Shiiba
SSAP KG
#37 - 2012-03-29 10:12:19 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Game masters do not moderate our forums, so I cannot answer that. Also, this is no new interpretation, this has always been the case. We have issued many temporary bans for issuing real life threats.


Serious question here, and I'm genuinely curious: If this was a clear violation of clear rules that don't require any interpretation that isn't already present, why did it take 5 days for him to be punished when video evidence was available mere hours after the incident took place?
Ezurae
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-03-29 10:13:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezurae
Tei Lin wrote:
Ezurae wrote:
Tei Lin wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.


Despite the trolls I was very sincere in my opening statement so thank you for clarifying.

So, by my interpretation it seems that me and my friends who went after the bounty today are in the clear with regards to the Harassment Policy. And that people calling for us to get banned simply because we're chasing a bounty are misinformed.

Again, thank you for the clarification.

I do take some affront to you questioning my common sense, as I assure you I am not the only one puzzled by the current climate or worried at the direction CCP was heading with this.


well if you read the post you can see that the intent matters. And the intent of the persons who put out the bounty is pretty clear. so i wouldnt really count on getting the money because that person who issued the bounty may be banned soon enough.


Wait, there was no intent to cause harm. My Reading of the GM's response indicated that the reason The Mittani was banned was because he made the connection that "griefing in game" would cause a real life consequence.

Putting a bounty on someones head, by its own merit, has no consequence outside the magic circle and therefore is not harassment.


again this is a pretty special case cause of the recent events. CCP stated they will watch actions taken against the wis. As far as i know he has a positive security status and cant have an ingame bounty. (didnt login to check so i might be wrong). I'm assuming here that this is a bounty that got set on him through forum or other means and people will pay for his corpse. Cause of recent events it clearly connects to the "harass him till he suicides" especially since the bounty is not set through ingame means. (again i'm assuming he doesnt have an ingame bounty, correct me if i'm wrong)

edit: I'm not saying every "forum bounty" would be a problem but in this case i would definately see the intent related to the recent events and expect gms to take action against it
malaire
#39 - 2012-03-29 10:14:43 UTC
Banderlei Shiiba wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Game masters do not moderate our forums, so I cannot answer that. Also, this is no new interpretation, this has always been the case. We have issued many temporary bans for issuing real life threats.


Serious question here, and I'm genuinely curious: If this was a clear violation of clear rules that don't require any interpretation that isn't already present, why did it take 5 days for him to be punished when video evidence was available mere hours after the incident took place?

5 days to publish devblog is actually quite fast for CCP. Maybe they wanted to double and triple check what exactly they are going to say.

New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else
malaire
#40 - 2012-03-29 10:16:08 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Game masters do not moderate our forums, so I cannot answer that. Also, this is no new interpretation, this has always been the case. We have issued many temporary bans for issuing real life threats.
OK, no problem understand that.

So just clear up one thing for me. Does telling a CCP customer who is manic depressive with a suicidal history OOG to kill themselves (forums included) constitute a real life threat?

If so, could you direct my case to the appropriate place I as would appreciate it.

Just make harrasment petition ingame?

Or if it was forum post, press the Report button.

New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else