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Hey CCP, your legal department isn't doing you any favors.

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Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-03-29 06:51:13 UTC
Joseph Sulaco wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Joseph Sulaco wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
This just in. California is everywhere.


Exactly!

Neither CCP nor "that person" are subject to California's local laws. What about the "target" of this harassment? If he lives there then MAYBE you have a leg to stand on.

IIRC I'm going to tell someone to die in a fire tonight in local. Someone please call the internet police, and I don't mean CONCORD.



I used it as a mere example. I forgot I'm arguing with the "EVE" forums. To hell with it. I made my point. Moving On.


No I think the issue is you failed to make a point. Or rather your point was here >.< and the issue is over there ----------->



Point was made - there are laws against cyber bullying. We dont know if they apply to the parties invloved becasue we dont know their laws.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Misato Katsuragi
N. E. R. V.
#42 - 2012-03-29 07:03:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Misato Katsuragi
Sobach wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Having someone stating that they are going to make a game burn because they made jokingly remarks about someone committing suicide, why are people OK with this, is this the type of people the game fosters?


you referring to the Jita-burn campaign that's planned? personally I have zero issue with that, as that really exemplifies what EVE is all about. As long as it's conducted properly within the boundaries of the game, I see no problem with it.

as far as why some people aren't all up in arms over this incident... it depends on each person's experience and perspective. People who may have had to deal with suicides in their families and friends would obviously react differently to those who didn't. Others may view people who threatens suicides in a more contemptuous light than you do. Others, me included in this category, may have seen much worse things than this in life, which again puts things in a different perspective.

Compared to to people who've died and suffered in war zones, and/or are living in abject poverty, or any other myriad of far more egregious injustices in the world, a tasteless drunken comment at a internet spaceship game convention that objectively did little actual harm simply doesn't seem that big of a deal to me.


Good analysis on the view. I myself work quite closely from time to time with such individuals.

It was interesting reading this article: http://freebooted.blogspot.com/2012/03/eve-morality-tale-mittani-versus.html and the comment sections below. There is a part of me that feels Mr Gianturco may be suffering from his own type of condition. He definitively not the type of person, I personally would not associate myself with. Being an ass in EVE, OK, letting that slide into some personal beliefs on an individuals, not OK.

I have a firm belief that their needs to be some moral standard that carry with us in gaming. There should be some lines that shouldn't be crossed.

If anything, Mr Gianturco would appear to be one of those "shock value" type of personalities; and in some respects, this situation could be compared to the Michael Richards Laugh Factory incident.

I feel we must be careful in how much we "let slide" in our morale fabric.
Joseph Sulaco
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-03-29 07:10:37 UTC
Montevius Williams wrote:
Joseph Sulaco wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Joseph Sulaco wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
This just in. California is everywhere.


Exactly!

Neither CCP nor "that person" are subject to California's local laws. What about the "target" of this harassment? If he lives there then MAYBE you have a leg to stand on.

IIRC I'm going to tell someone to die in a fire tonight in local. Someone please call the internet police, and I don't mean CONCORD.



I used it as a mere example. I forgot I'm arguing with the "EVE" forums. To hell with it. I made my point. Moving On.


No I think the issue is you failed to make a point. Or rather your point was here >.< and the issue is over there ----------->



Point was made - there are laws against cyber bullying. We dont know if they apply to the parties invloved becasue we dont know their laws.


Ignoring the other points we have been making about jurisdiction, nobody seems to know if either party involved is subject to these laws.

Therefore >.< and ------------------------>
Misato Katsuragi
N. E. R. V.
#44 - 2012-03-29 07:15:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Misato Katsuragi
Sadly this is not what my intent was, read my above comments and you will see this thread is more of a focus on what I view as weak risk management on the part of CCP.
Sobach
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-03-29 07:15:55 UTC
Joseph Sulaco wrote:
nobody seems to know if either party involved is subject to these laws.


the most likely, and probably only court system that would have jurisdiction over this would be Iceland's, and I don't know anything about the specifics of Iceland's laws and statutes regarding these type of incidents.

I'd say the chance of this going that far though would probably be about the same as me winning that half a billion lottery :P
Davor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-03-29 07:19:23 UTC
Everyone in this thread should be banned for 30 days.
Davor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-03-29 07:19:56 UTC
And banned from posting forever.
Joseph Sulaco
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2012-03-29 07:21:42 UTC
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Sadly this is not what my intent was, read my above comments and you will see this thread is more of a focus on what I view as weak risk management on the part of CCP.


OK then

CCP Games Hf is an Icelandic company/entity and has no legal responsibility for the actions of it's clients.

How is that?
Testerxnot Sheepherder
Get Isk or Die Mining
#49 - 2012-03-29 07:23:22 UTC
Davor wrote:
And banned from posting forever.


Sounds like a thrill.
Misato Katsuragi
N. E. R. V.
#50 - 2012-03-29 07:32:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Misato Katsuragi
Joseph Sulaco wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Sadly this is not what my intent was, read my above comments and you will see this thread is more of a focus on what I view as weak risk management on the part of CCP.


OK then

CCP Games Hf is an Icelandic company/entity and has no legal responsibility for the actions of it's clients.

How is that?


But public image is, and in the case of CCP, it is something they've been fighting to fix for that past 9 months, since incarna.

CCP is a company and at the end of the day, it has its own priorities to protect itself from what other people say. Why do you think advertisers remove their ads from radio stations when a DJ says something stupid.

Guilty by association, it's how people think.

Reasons:

#1:Morale high ground. (If CCP ever wants to go public...)

#2: Legal issues related to one of your clients doing something stupid at one of your conferences, that you moderated. And however weak and doubtful they have been, they last think you would want as a company is your name and cyber bullying in the same article. http://videogamewriters.com/eve-online-player-banned-after-cyberbullying-comments-43118
Ismol Mond
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-03-29 07:33:37 UTC
A synopsis of Misato's rambling:
It"s against the law! CCP's legal department doesn't know the law like I do the game will be shut down shortly!
(Proved worng on every point. Plus you and your kind are why tort reform is so sorely needed here in the US)
Misato trying to save face:
Well maybe it's not against the legal law but it's against the moral law!
(Please unsunscribe from the game and go away. Man is again the measure of all things if you haven't noticed lately but mostly go away for starting another thread where you could have just added to the other dozen or so. Which indicates you are nothing more than a mere drama queen)
Misato Katsuragi
N. E. R. V.
#52 - 2012-03-29 07:36:00 UTC
Ismol Mond wrote:
A synopsis of Misato's rambling:
It"s against the law! CCP's legal department doesn't know the law like I do the game will be shut down shortly!
(Proved worng on every point. Plus you and your kind are why tort reform is so sorely needed here in the US)
Misato trying to save face:
Well maybe it's not against the legal law but it's against the moral law!
(Please unsunscribe from the game and go away. Man is again the measure of all things if you haven't noticed lately but mostly go away for starting another thread where you could have just added to the other dozen or so. Which indicates you are nothing more than a mere drama queen)



Thanks for reading and posting.
Joseph Sulaco
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2012-03-29 07:40:33 UTC
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Joseph Sulaco wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Sadly this is not what my intent was, read my above comments and you will see this thread is more of a focus on what I view as weak risk management on the part of CCP.


OK then

CCP Games Hf is an Icelandic company/entity and has no legal responsibility for the actions of it's clients.

How is that?


But public image is, and in the case of CCP, it is something they've been fighting to fix for that past 9 months, since incarna.

CCP is a company and at the end of the day, it has its own priorities to protect itself from what other people say. Why do you think advertisers remove their ads from radio stations when a DJ says something stupid.

Guilty by association, it's how people think

#1:Morale high ground

#2: Legal issues related to one of your clients doing something stupid and one of your conferences, that you moderated. And however weak and doubtful they have been, they last think you would want as a company is your name and cyber bullying in the same article.


OK... Martha Stewart "served five months in a West Virginia federal prison" and still owns a large business and does business with other people and companies.

The Mittani mouthed off and is not even subject to his own state's local laws on the subject (I looked them up but out of respect, and forum rules, I won't hand out his home state or any other personal information, go look it up yourself and then keep it to yourself). Check this out http://www.cyberbullying.us/Bullying_and_Cyberbullying_Laws.pdf and look at all those "NO"s for "Off Campus".

Wait off campus! HOLY **** this only applies to school children.

I propose that CCP is not even slightly legally responsible.

PR.... All respects to CCP Manifest but he should be working some long hours just to keep an eye on things.


*sings a ditty about ship toasting*
Misato Katsuragi
N. E. R. V.
#54 - 2012-03-29 07:50:10 UTC
Joseph Sulaco wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Joseph Sulaco wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Sadly this is not what my intent was, read my above comments and you will see this thread is more of a focus on what I view as weak risk management on the part of CCP.


OK then

CCP Games Hf is an Icelandic company/entity and has no legal responsibility for the actions of it's clients.

How is that?


But public image is, and in the case of CCP, it is something they've been fighting to fix for that past 9 months, since incarna.

CCP is a company and at the end of the day, it has its own priorities to protect itself from what other people say. Why do you think advertisers remove their ads from radio stations when a DJ says something stupid.

Guilty by association, it's how people think

#1:Morale high ground

#2: Legal issues related to one of your clients doing something stupid and one of your conferences, that you moderated. And however weak and doubtful they have been, they last think you would want as a company is your name and cyber bullying in the same article.


OK... Martha Stewart "served five months in a West Virginia federal prison" and still owns a large business and does business with other people and companies.

The Mittani mouthed off and is not even subject to his own state's local laws on the subject (I looked them up but out of respect, and forum rules, I won't hand out his home state or any other personal information, go look it up yourself and then keep it to yourself). Check this out http://www.cyberbullying.us/Bullying_and_Cyberbullying_Laws.pdf and look at all those "NO"s for "Off Campus".

Wait off campus! HOLY **** this only applies to school children.

I propose that CCP is not even slightly legally responsible.

PR.... All respects to CCP Manifest but he should be working some long hours just to keep an eye on things.


*sings a ditty about ship toasting*


Cyber bullying and Cyber Harassment have been used interchangeably for sometime now without regard to the age/campus limitation.

But the fact that this is coming up now in news articles with the terms "cyber bullying", "harassment", etc.. Do I need even make this point...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/116503-Eve-Online-Panel-Encourages-Harassing-Suicidal-Player

http://www.vg247.com/2012/03/28/eve-online-sm-council-chairman-intending-to-resign-over-suicidal-remarks-at-fanfest/comment-page-1/

http://www.develop-online.net/news/40327/Eve-man-ashamed-and-sorry-for-suicide-jokes

http://games.on.net/article/15232/EVE_Online_SM_Council_Chairman_to_Resign_After_Public_Mockery_of_Suicidal_Player_at_Fanfest
Joseph Sulaco
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2012-03-29 08:00:28 UTC
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Joseph Sulaco wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Joseph Sulaco wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Sadly this is not what my intent was, read my above comments and you will see this thread is more of a focus on what I view as weak risk management on the part of CCP.


OK then

CCP Games Hf is an Icelandic company/entity and has no legal responsibility for the actions of it's clients.

How is that?


But public image is, and in the case of CCP, it is something they've been fighting to fix for that past 9 months, since incarna.

CCP is a company and at the end of the day, it has its own priorities to protect itself from what other people say. Why do you think advertisers remove their ads from radio stations when a DJ says something stupid.

Guilty by association, it's how people think

#1:Morale high ground

#2: Legal issues related to one of your clients doing something stupid and one of your conferences, that you moderated. And however weak and doubtful they have been, they last think you would want as a company is your name and cyber bullying in the same article.


OK... Martha Stewart "served five months in a West Virginia federal prison" and still owns a large business and does business with other people and companies.

The Mittani mouthed off and is not even subject to his own state's local laws on the subject (I looked them up but out of respect, and forum rules, I won't hand out his home state or any other personal information, go look it up yourself and then keep it to yourself). Check this out http://www.cyberbullying.us/Bullying_and_Cyberbullying_Laws.pdf and look at all those "NO"s for "Off Campus".

Wait off campus! HOLY **** this only applies to school children.

I propose that CCP is not even slightly legally responsible.

PR.... All respects to CCP Manifest but he should be working some long hours just to keep an eye on things.


*sings a ditty about ship toasting*


Cyber bullying and Cyber Harassment have been used interchangeably for sometime now without regard to the age/campus limitation.

But the fact that this is coming up now in news articles with the terms "cyber bullying", "harassment", etc.. Do I need even make this point...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/116503-Eve-Online-Panel-Encourages-Harassing-Suicidal-Player

http://www.vg247.com/2012/03/28/eve-online-sm-council-chairman-intending-to-resign-over-suicidal-remarks-at-fanfest/comment-page-1/

http://www.develop-online.net/news/40327/Eve-man-ashamed-and-sorry-for-suicide-jokes

http://games.on.net/article/15232/EVE_Online_SM_Council_Chairman_to_Resign_After_Public_Mockery_of_Suicidal_Player_at_Fanfest


Lets see....

,com

.com

.net

.net

I don't see any .gov in there that would potentially have the authority to support your argument. Escapist magazine could call it whatever it wants too but by no means does it make it an actual legal issue.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#56 - 2012-03-29 08:00:52 UTC
Misato Katsuragi wrote:

Cyber bullying and Cyber Harassment have been used interchangeably for sometime now without regard to the age/campus limitation.

But the fact that this is coming up now in news articles with the terms "cyber bullying", "harassment", etc.. Do I need even make this point...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/116503-Eve-Online-Panel-Encourages-Harassing-Suicidal-Player

http://www.vg247.com/2012/03/28/eve-online-sm-council-chairman-intending-to-resign-over-suicidal-remarks-at-fanfest/comment-page-1/

http://www.develop-online.net/news/40327/Eve-man-ashamed-and-sorry-for-suicide-jokes

http://games.on.net/article/15232/EVE_Online_SM_Council_Chairman_to_Resign_After_Public_Mockery_of_Suicidal_Player_at_Fanfest


Cool story, I'm glad that the media can decide what counts as harassment. With a small modicum of research you can go look up the relevant harassment statues and see for yourself that it was not:
- Cyberbullying (not a school kid)
- Harassment in general (didn't know the guy's real name)
- Cyberharassment (wasn't harassment)

At most, you got that Mittens had an unfortunate lapse in judgment and broke the TOS/EULA resulting in a 30 day ban. Which he owned up to like a champ.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Amarr Citizen 20120329
#57 - 2012-03-29 08:01:48 UTC
im apparently a lawyer even though I don't show up as ever having taken the BAR in any state. so actually im probably just a lowly paralegal, or liar oh wait


anyway, ccp should hire me

Dear Goons: I will sell you this character for 50B ISK. EVE mail me if interested.

Btw, I am the Mittardi, not the Mittani
Davor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-03-29 08:03:26 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:

Cyber bullying and Cyber Harassment have been used interchangeably for sometime now without regard to the age/campus limitation.

But the fact that this is coming up now in news articles with the terms "cyber bullying", "harassment", etc.. Do I need even make this point...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/116503-Eve-Online-Panel-Encourages-Harassing-Suicidal-Player

http://www.vg247.com/2012/03/28/eve-online-sm-council-chairman-intending-to-resign-over-suicidal-remarks-at-fanfest/comment-page-1/

http://www.develop-online.net/news/40327/Eve-man-ashamed-and-sorry-for-suicide-jokes

http://games.on.net/article/15232/EVE_Online_SM_Council_Chairman_to_Resign_After_Public_Mockery_of_Suicidal_Player_at_Fanfest


Cool story, I'm glad that the media can decide what counts as harassment. With a small modicum of research you can go look up the relevant harassment statues and see for yourself that it was not:
- Cyberbullying (not a school kid)
- Harassment in general (didn't know the guy's real name)
- Cyberharassment (wasn't harassment)

At most, you got that Mittens had an unfortunate lapse in judgment and broke the TOS/EULA resulting in a 30 day ban. Which he owned up to like a champ.

-Liang



Show me where the EULA covers what you do out of game.
Joseph Sulaco
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2012-03-29 08:04:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Joseph Sulaco
Liang Nuren wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:

Cyber bullying and Cyber Harassment have been used interchangeably for sometime now without regard to the age/campus limitation.

But the fact that this is coming up now in news articles with the terms "cyber bullying", "harassment", etc.. Do I need even make this point...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/116503-Eve-Online-Panel-Encourages-Harassing-Suicidal-Player

http://www.vg247.com/2012/03/28/eve-online-sm-council-chairman-intending-to-resign-over-suicidal-remarks-at-fanfest/comment-page-1/

http://www.develop-online.net/news/40327/Eve-man-ashamed-and-sorry-for-suicide-jokes

http://games.on.net/article/15232/EVE_Online_SM_Council_Chairman_to_Resign_After_Public_Mockery_of_Suicidal_Player_at_Fanfest


Cool story, I'm glad that the media can decide what counts as harassment. With a small modicum of research you can go look up the relevant harassment statues and see for yourself that it was not:
- Cyberbullying (not a school kid)
- Harassment in general (didn't know the guy's real name)
- Cyberharassment (wasn't harassment)

At most, you got that Mittens had an unfortunate lapse in judgment and broke the TOS/EULA resulting in a 30 day ban. Which he owned up to like a champ.

-Liang


Does the fact that he named the person individually make this a TOS/EULA violatoin? Because about once a year Helicity Boson organizes and event that is even advertised by CCP whose sole bases is to suicide gank miners as much as you possibly could. GRANTED I don't remember Mittani's exact words at the moment but I do know he said to go suicide gank this guy.

I guess the distinction is the intended results of said actions? Suicide vs Carebear Tears?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#60 - 2012-03-29 08:06:14 UTC
Davor wrote:
Show me where the EULA covers what you do out of game.


My personal opinion is that this wasn't covered by the EULA or TOS. CCP disagreed with me in the dev blog, and Mittens isn't inclined to make waves over it. I see no point in fighting about it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.