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Hey CCP, your legal department isn't doing you any favors.

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Joseph Sulaco
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2012-03-29 05:48:13 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
This just in. California is everywhere.



This just in, you are subject to the laws of the US even abroad.


I'm totally sure the Federal US is going to push for extradition for internet spaceships.
Ai Mei
Starfish Operating Syndicate
#22 - 2012-03-29 05:57:59 UTC
Wait wasnt all this stuff said and done in Iceland where the US has no juristiction?
Misato Katsuragi
N. E. R. V.
#23 - 2012-03-29 05:58:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Misato Katsuragi
Xander Riggs wrote:
Tobias Sjodin wrote:
Was your point that you are an overreacting drama-queen/quasi Internets-lawyer?

As much as I dislike the goons, this whole thing has been vastly thrown out of proportion.


This. I started playing Eve to kill Goons, and now I'm inadvertantly thrust to their side of the issue because the rest of the carebears can't find room in their panties for their freshly descended ********* and are just in the WORST mood about it.



Game greifing, perfectly fun, what I love most about eve.

Joking about someone committing suicide and hinting at possible encouragement of such act. Honestly, where do people not see something wrong with that?

The dude joked about a guy committing suicide. (And The Wis may have some under lying condition that people don't know about.) Line crossed, thanks for playing, time for you do something else with your free time. Mr. Alexander Gianturco perception of reality and gaming has blurred.

In a hyper politically correct world, you have to be careful what you say. There are social norms, and this isn't being recognized.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#24 - 2012-03-29 06:02:30 UTC
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Xander Riggs wrote:
Tobias Sjodin wrote:
Was your point that you are an overreacting drama-queen/quasi Internets-lawyer?

As much as I dislike the goons, this whole thing has been vastly thrown out of proportion.


This. I started playing Eve to kill Goons, and now I'm inadvertantly thrust to their side of the issue because the rest of the carebears can't find room in their panties for their freshly descended ********* and are just in the WORST mood about it.



Game greifing, perfectly fun, what I love most about eve.

Joking about someone committing suicide and hinting at possible encouragement of such act. Honestly, where do people not see something wrong with that?

The dude joked about a guy committing suicide. (And The Wis may have some under lying condition that people don't know about.) Line crossed, thanks for playing, time for you do something else with your free time. Mr. Alexander Gianturco perception of reality and gaming has blurred.

In a hyper politically correct world, you have to be careful what you say. There are social norms, and this isn't being recognized.


"Guys, its TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE to extend EVE grudges to real life." ~*attempts to get a nerd extradited and tried in criminal court over an off-color joke*~

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-03-29 06:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: RougeOperator
Joseph Sulaco wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
This just in. California is everywhere.



This just in, you are subject to the laws of the US even abroad.


I'm totally sure the Federal US is going to push for extradition for internet spaceships.



He lives in the USA. Sigh.

They don't have to extradite him anywhere. Hes already here.

And probable that he violated several US laws with what he said.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-03-29 06:06:36 UTC
Ai Mei wrote:
Wait wasnt all this stuff said and done in Iceland where the US has no juristiction?



You are subject to US laws while abroad.

Basically if you break a US law in another country you can be brought up on charges in the US for that crime.

This came about in the lat 90s early 00s because of the sex tours to other countries.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
Misato Katsuragi
N. E. R. V.
#27 - 2012-03-29 06:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Misato Katsuragi
Lapine Davion wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Xander Riggs wrote:
Tobias Sjodin wrote:
Was your point that you are an overreacting drama-queen/quasi Internets-lawyer?

As much as I dislike the goons, this whole thing has been vastly thrown out of proportion.


This. I started playing Eve to kill Goons, and now I'm inadvertantly thrust to their side of the issue because the rest of the carebears can't find room in their panties for their freshly descended ********* and are just in the WORST mood about it.



Game greifing, perfectly fun, what I love most about eve.

Joking about someone committing suicide and hinting at possible encouragement of such act. Honestly, where do people not see something wrong with that?

The dude joked about a guy committing suicide. (And The Wis may have some under lying condition that people don't know about.) Line crossed, thanks for playing, time for you do something else with your free time. Mr. Alexander Gianturco perception of reality and gaming has blurred.

In a hyper politically correct world, you have to be careful what you say. There are social norms, and this isn't being recognized.


"Guys, its TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE to extend EVE grudges to real life." ~*attempts to get a nerd extradited and tried in criminal court over an off-color joke*~


And yet people have been tried for less. Additionally, from a company image stand point, wouldn't you want to separate yourself that? FAR as you could from that?

In the interest of my company, I would quickly and quietly push this under the table and pray no one would have seen this. Yet, now that this story is leaking out, CCP has an image to protect.

This thread is about CCP's legal team and their composite risk management guys....
Sobach
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-03-29 06:12:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobach
RougeOperator wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
This just in. California is everywhere.



This just in, you are subject to the laws of the US even abroad.


I live in the US, and I couldn't give two fks about what california law says, because I don't live there. The idea that california state laws will have jurisdiction outside of its state border, much less in a foreign country, is laughably stupid at the least.


the application of US laws overseas on US citizens is very specific on a case-by-case basis that usually involves federal statutes/treaties, not state laws. Generally speaking, if you're in a foreign country, you're bound by the local laws and are under their jurisdiction. A US military member is bound by the UCMJ regardless of where he is at for example, but if you drive down the autobahn at 150 mph or smoke pot in Amsterdam, you're not gonna get prosecuted when you return stateside, even though both are illegal in just about every state.

here you go:

http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com/Legal/News/ViewNews.aspx?id=43458&terms=%40ReutersTopicCodes+CONTAINS+%27ANV%27

A key point here:

"The U.S. Supreme Court's 2010 ruling in Morrison... held that federal laws should not be presumed to have extraterritorial application unless Congress so specified."

RougeOperator wrote:
Ai Mei wrote:
Wait wasnt all this stuff said and done in Iceland where the US has no juristiction?



You are subject to US laws while abroad.

Basically if you break a US law in another country you can be brought up on charges in the US for that crime.

This came about in the lat 90s early 00s because of the sex tours to other countries.


the sex/human trafficking statute is very specific, and the extraterritorial jurisdiction granted is only specific to that statute, it does not extend over the entirety of the federal law, much less state laws.
Misato Katsuragi
N. E. R. V.
#29 - 2012-03-29 06:23:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Misato Katsuragi
Sobach wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
This just in. California is everywhere.



This just in, you are subject to the laws of the US even abroad.


I live in the US, and I couldn't give two fks about what california law says, because I don't live there. The idea that california state laws will have jurisdiction outside of its state border, much less in a foreign country, is laughably stupid at the least.


the application of US laws overseas on US citizens is very specific on a case-by-case basis that usually involves federal statutes/treaties, not state laws. Generally speaking, if you're in a foreign country, you're bound by the local laws and are under their jurisdiction. A US military member is bound by the UCMJ regardless of where he is at for example, but if you drive down the autobahn at 150 mph or smoke pot in Amsterdam, you're not gonna get prosecuted when you return stateside, even though both are illegal in just about every state.



You missed the point, I guess i should have posted every US state law there was. That's the problem in utilizing samples, people take it at face value and that's it. I USED THIS AS A SAMPLE! There's obviously a ton of laws on cyber bullying, harassment, etc. What I accept as "common knowledge" isn't as common as I thought.

I would have thought that people would have realized that they are laws against being **** bags against other people over the internet. And like I said before, those lines blurr between reality and gaming.

People like EVE because you can spend your time ******* around like a ******, scamming, looting, pillaging, and harassing other players.

Ironically enough, CCP allowed this behavior because it's fun, it's why we all play EVE. However, when this behavior crosses over into real life, CCP now suddenly realizes they have another PR problem.

This is probably a serious underlying issue that CCP may have stumbled over with gaming as a whole, and will probably only get much worse as time goes on.

Like I said, their lawyers and their composite risk management guys dropped the ball on this one.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-03-29 06:24:48 UTC
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
I honestly can't believe the stupid reaction you took in response to "that guy's" comments. Whoever is on your legal department needs to be fired. Any company with any sort of self preservation would have responded with a drastic form separation from "him".


They kind of did. By removing his ability to participate in the CSM they distanced themselves very clearly from his remarks. Remember, Mittens had no problems mentioning that he was chairman of the CSM, and at the same time pointing out that he was a conduit between the game developers and the players.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Joseph Sulaco
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2012-03-29 06:28:08 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
Ai Mei wrote:
Wait wasnt all this stuff said and done in Iceland where the US has no juristiction?



You are subject to US laws while abroad.

Basically if you break a US law in another country you can be brought up on charges in the US for that crime.

This came about in the lat 90s early 00s because of the sex tours to other countries.


Interesting I'd have to look that up.

In the military we were subject to both military and local laws but as a citizen abroad I'm not sure as I know several vacation spots are popular, like Germany, do to a drinking age lower than ours.

Regardless of that show us where he broke Federal US law then. So far all we have is California law and I don't think either person in question lives there, and if one of them did they would have to use the federal government to prosecute across state lines.

Also you know what I just remembered, The Mittani is a lawyer, he should know this **** better than most of us lol.
Sobach
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-03-29 06:30:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobach
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
You missed the point, I guess i should have posted every US state law there was. That's the problem in utilizing samples, people take it at face value and that's it. I USED THIS AS A SAMPLE! There's obviously a ton of laws on cyber bullying, harassment, etc. What I accept as "common knowledge" isn't as common as I thought.


there are many states with laws on cyber bullying, none of which have jurisdiction outside of their state border, which is where this occurred, unless you think Iceland is the 51th state. That is what you and rouge operator aren't getting.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be enraged or pissed off about this, that's your opinion and you're certainly welcome to it, but on the subject of the applicable laws you're factually incorrect.
Sobach
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-03-29 06:33:09 UTC
Joseph Sulaco wrote:

Regardless of that show us where he broke Federal US law then. So far all we have is California law and I don't think either person in question lives there, and if one of them did they would have to use the federal government to prosecute across state lines.


there's that too, it's sad how little people who live in the US understand the basics of how the US judiciary functions.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-03-29 06:34:16 UTC
Joseph Sulaco wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
Ai Mei wrote:
Wait wasnt all this stuff said and done in Iceland where the US has no juristiction?



You are subject to US laws while abroad.

Basically if you break a US law in another country you can be brought up on charges in the US for that crime.

This came about in the lat 90s early 00s because of the sex tours to other countries.


Interesting I'd have to look that up.

In the military we were subject to both military and local laws but as a citizen abroad I'm not sure as I know several vacation spots are popular, like Germany, do to a drinking age lower than ours.

Regardless of that show us where he broke Federal US law then. So far all we have is California law and I don't think either person in question lives there, and if one of them did they would have to use the federal government to prosecute across state lines.

Also you know what I just remembered, The Mittani is a lawyer, he should know this **** better than most of us lol.


You are partially correct. I know of a case in which a man from Alabama was charged with the death of his wife while they were on their honeymoon in Australia. I'd have to look at what part of the United States Code gives the government authorization to do it, but I'm assuming it would be because the suspect was an American citizen, as was his wife.

Second, Mittens is either an aspiring lawyer, a lawyer currently, or a "retired" lawyer depending on which lie the Goons want to propagate.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2012-03-29 06:37:29 UTC
Misato Katsuragi wrote:

Game greifing, perfectly fun, what I love most about eve.

Joking about someone committing suicide and hinting at possible encouragement of such act. Honestly, where do people not see something wrong with that?

The dude joked about a guy committing suicide. (And The Wis may have some under lying condition that people don't know about.) Line crossed, thanks for playing, time for you do something else with your free time. Mr. Alexander Gianturco perception of reality and gaming has blurred.

In a hyper politically correct world, you have to be careful what you say. There are social norms, and this isn't being recognized.

~ eve is real ~

our "hyper politically correct world" only exists because you choose to be a part of it
Misato Katsuragi
N. E. R. V.
#36 - 2012-03-29 06:38:01 UTC
Sobach wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
You missed the point, I guess i should have posted every US state law there was. That's the problem in utilizing samples, people take it at face value and that's it. I USED THIS AS A SAMPLE! There's obviously a ton of laws on cyber bullying, harassment, etc. What I accept as "common knowledge" isn't as common as I thought.


there are many states with laws on cyber bullying, none of which have jurisdiction outside of their state border, which is where this occurred, unless you think Iceland is the 51th state. That is what you and rouge operator aren't getting.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be enraged or pissed off about this, that's your opinion and you're certainly welcome to it, but on the subject of the applicable laws you're factually incorrect.


I hoped utilize laws as a subject of focus on what should be considered socially acceptable, as we as a human race seem to have lost its way. In the news, cyber harassment/bullying is a large issue, not just here in the states, but also in the UK and abroad. It's not something to be taken lightly.

Having someone stating that they are going to make a game burn because they made jokingly remarks about someone committing suicide, why are people OK with this, is this the type of people the game fosters?

I should try and focus this more on a PR and risk management standpoint in the perspective of CCP, and from outside of our little world of the EVE, the real world dose notice things like this.

My apologies for confusing law w/ my main point.
Sobach
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-03-29 06:38:12 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
You are partially correct. I know of a case in which a man from Alabama was charged with the death of his wife while they were on their honeymoon in Australia. I'd have to look at what part of the United States Code gives the government authorization to do it, but I'm assuming it would be because the suspect was an American citizen, as was his wife.


nope.

In that particular case the prosecutor charged the man on the theory that his conspiracy to commit murder against his wife was conducted while he was still in Alabama, thus granting the state the power to prosecute as part of the crime was committed there.

also, the case was subsequently tossed out by the judge over a complete lack of evidence to support the prosecution's theory, so there's that.
Misato Katsuragi
N. E. R. V.
#38 - 2012-03-29 06:39:39 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:

Game greifing, perfectly fun, what I love most about eve.

Joking about someone committing suicide and hinting at possible encouragement of such act. Honestly, where do people not see something wrong with that?

The dude joked about a guy committing suicide. (And The Wis may have some under lying condition that people don't know about.) Line crossed, thanks for playing, time for you do something else with your free time. Mr. Alexander Gianturco perception of reality and gaming has blurred.

In a hyper politically correct world, you have to be careful what you say. There are social norms, and this isn't being recognized.

~ eve is real ~

our "hyper politically correct world" only exists because you choose to be a part of it


That's the most ignorant comment I've read in a long time.
Sobach
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-03-29 06:49:43 UTC
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Having someone stating that they are going to make a game burn because they made jokingly remarks about someone committing suicide, why are people OK with this, is this the type of people the game fosters?


you referring to the Jita-burn campaign that's planned? personally I have zero issue with that, as that really exemplifies what EVE is all about. As long as it's conducted properly within the boundaries of the game, I see no problem with it.

as far as why some people aren't all up in arms over this incident... it depends on each person's experience and perspective. People who may have had to deal with suicides in their families and friends would obviously react differently to those who didn't. Others may view people who threatens suicides in a more contemptuous light than you do. Others, me included in this category, may have seen much worse things than this in life, which again puts things in a different perspective.

Compared to to people who've died and suffered in war zones, and/or are living in abject poverty, or any other myriad of far more egregious injustices in the world, a tasteless drunken comment at a internet spaceship game convention that objectively did little actual harm simply doesn't seem that big of a deal to me.
Joseph Sulaco
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-03-29 06:49:55 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
Joseph Sulaco wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
Ai Mei wrote:
Wait wasnt all this stuff said and done in Iceland where the US has no juristiction?



You are subject to US laws while abroad.

Basically if you break a US law in another country you can be brought up on charges in the US for that crime.

This came about in the lat 90s early 00s because of the sex tours to other countries.


Interesting I'd have to look that up.

In the military we were subject to both military and local laws but as a citizen abroad I'm not sure as I know several vacation spots are popular, like Germany, do to a drinking age lower than ours.

Regardless of that show us where he broke Federal US law then. So far all we have is California law and I don't think either person in question lives there, and if one of them did they would have to use the federal government to prosecute across state lines.

Also you know what I just remembered, The Mittani is a lawyer, he should know this **** better than most of us lol.


You are partially correct. I know of a case in which a man from Alabama was charged with the death of his wife while they were on their honeymoon in Australia. I'd have to look at what part of the United States Code gives the government authorization to do it, but I'm assuming it would be because the suspect was an American citizen, as was his wife.

Second, Mittens is either an aspiring lawyer, a lawyer currently, or a "retired" lawyer depending on which lie the Goons want to propagate.


RE: The Alabama dude, it's part of the Constitution that deals with it on a local (US) level. International Treaties deal with it on the Australian to US level. I'm pretty sure the USA likes Kangaroos Twisted. Hmm I wonder if because both parties involved were Alabama residents that they just kept it local because of that, and charged/prosecuted when he returned from his trip? I remember the case you are talking about but not the details cause I don't plan on killing my wife so I'm not interested in them haah!