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Ganker Wishlist: Ideas for improving suicide ganking for gankers!

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Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2012-03-26 19:54:52 UTC
Well, the stated purpose of the thread was to provide ideas for CCP to consider to BENEFIT gankers.
Some of those ideas happen to improve the game as a whole. (ie, Orca changes, ISK sink, Implant drops)

Some of these suggestions do not even effect you at all. Even if individuals can 'buy back' sec status with ISK - what does it matter to you? You won't be using the service - and you likely won't be getting ganked because you are smart enough not to.
And as I said, converting ISK to sec status isn't even 'easy mode' - because that assumes that ISK requires no effort to earn, patently false.

And in a larger sense,
The very existance of the thread provides equal time to our viewpoint.

The 'nerf suicide ganking/buff Concord' view gets ample attention from the multitudes of outraged carebears out there.
This is to provide a rational counterpoint.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2012-03-26 20:10:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Buck Futz wrote:
Well, the stated purpose of the thread was to provide ideas for CCP to consider to BENEFIT gankers.
Some of those ideas happen to improve the game as a whole. (ie, Orca changes, ISK sink, Implant drops)

Some of these suggestions do not even effect you at all. Even if individuals can 'buy back' sec status with ISK - what does it matter to you? You won't be using the service - and you likely won't be getting ganked because you are smart enough not to.
And as I said, converting ISK to sec status isn't even 'easy mode' - because that assumes that ISK requires no effort to earn, patently false.

And in a larger sense,
The very existance of the thread provides equal time to our viewpoint.

The 'nerf suicide ganking/buff Concord' view gets ample attention from the multitudes of outraged carebears out there.
This is to provide a rational counterpoint.


You assume I don't have a criminal alt? You assume I would have no future desire to? Why can I not see the cascaded effects of changing criminal elements not effect me due to the holistically understanding of EvE? You only want to seperate it to dequalify my interest, which is an invalid and arrogant viewpoint as a result.

I think your own testimony can explain how relatively easy it is for you to earn isk and the effects of it at the same time:

Buck Futz wrote:
Oops.
Now its 26 Macks, 1 Hulk and 6 Pods. (nice implants too, too bad the hardwires don't show anymore because of stupid renaming.)

Its nice that I had some warning, just enough time to get my logistics/industrial tail switched over to T2 Light Blasters, T2 Howies, Tornados and Cats. Oh, and of course, new Macks and Hulks for the miners........


Edit: Damn, Sam....

28.....2 for 1 with a Tornado. Sadly, no other targets in the belt, but managed to save all but 3 mods. (2x SEBOs and 1x TC)

.....and 31, plus one more 90M pod. Right before DT.

So my score, on Day 1 of the Crime Spree:

Carebears: - 5.1 Billion ISK.
Me: +480 Million (after expenses)

Not bad for one evening's work.


As such you don't hold exclusive right to this forum or this thread, and I think I'm entitled to discuss problems, propose refinements, counter claims, points of clarification, suggestions or whatever I like.

When you make rational arguments for improving ganking mechanics that simply don't provide significant advantages as a result I think I have offered my support towards them. So it invalidates your claim that you feel your being poorly treated by the debating process. Surely it would be better to judge things on merit than having to resort to whining about perceived disparity because someone doesn't agree with you? Not my fault the ideas don't hold.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2012-03-26 20:51:06 UTC
My own success is due to practice and effort. Further, I was attempting to prove a point to idiots who challenged us to show some results. So I did. If you think it is 'easy', or less deserving of reward - I challenge you to do it yourself. My guess is you won't find it so trivial, nor are the ISK rewards anything like, say - running Incursions.

And I didn't say anyone was unwelcome to contribute. Reason is much preferred to the mindless BS from most of the 'militant carebears'. However, I generally don't go out of my way to complain when other players lobby for 'buffs' of their own, especially when those buffs have very little to do with aspects of the game I am involved in.

Hybrid users, Gallente Pilots, Null sec players, PI farmers, even miners, I'm not going to beat them up if they see a need for an improvement here and there.

But, gee, I love getting accused of whining. Don't you?
Complaining about nerfs always earns you that label, and its generally useless.

So my strategy is twofold.

A) ADAPT and cause even more destruction to carebears, through greater effort and improved tactics.
B) Bring common sense and practical suggestions to the public forum, in an easily readable format.

Lets look at a past 'improvement' to suicide ganking: The insurance nerf.
It was narrowly targeted. It did not benefit anyone else, or the game as a whole - it was a purely punitive measure aimed at a very specific group of players. Game balance had nothing to do with it. As a mechanic, it didn't even make much sense - as insurance for self destruction was left in place - even though in the recent past it was a major problem for EVE's economy.

Yet, despite this - suicide ganking increased.
I believe that a great deal of that is because many of us had the same reaction - not to whine - but to push back harder and punish the carebears for lobbying for our extinction.

So if some of these suggestions seem to be 'narrowly targeted to benefit gankers/criminals', it is because most of the nerfs we've seen are as well.
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-03-27 00:53:01 UTC
Buck Futz wrote:
So far most of the ideas I am seeing, "Crimewatch" etc, seem to be just part of a big carebear wet dream. We get to read loads of disingenuous self-serving carebear suggestions on how to 'improve' ganking - all of which involve various ways to make it nearly impossible and/or highly unprofitable. They simply want to be 100% safe instead of just 98% safe like they are today.

But MAYBE, just maybe - that's simply because CCP hasn't heard much of anything constructive from the suicide ganking community.

Maybe they just need OUR input, on common sense things that can be done to make our profession

A) more convenient.
B) more accessable to younger gankers
C) more profitable.

1. Income for Pod Killers
-Killing pods is generally very difficult to do in highsec (without bubbles), and often you have to forcably 'remove' the ship first - before Concord intervenes. Yet despite the tasty implants that lie within, NONE EVER DROP. Pod killers are struck with the harshest of security status penalties. They deserve an income as well. Allow reprocessing of corpses for a 50% drop rate on the implants....with all the talk of RISK vs REWARD - lets have some rewards for podding already.

2. Orca 'Stealth' Cargo Bay nerf
- We've seen a ton of Orca nerfs lately. But the most damaging and game-distorting Orca 'bug' of all still remains. Its the effortless profits that come from hauling highly valuable goods in Orcas - almost completely without risk. Every day, goods are moved from one sector of space to another, and earn their pilots billions in profit. The only possible risk? Suicide gankers. Yet gankers aren't allowed to scan Orcas - to see what is concealed within the magic 40K cargo bay. And even if the Orca does get randomly popped (unlikely due to high EHP) - the 'secret' loot is 100% destroyed, without even a record of its destruction on the KM.

Lets just say - if I was going to theoretically move multiple T2 BPO's from point A to point B in highsec.....they would be moved in the 'secret compartment' of a heavily tanked Orca with an empty 'normal' cargo bay. Its safer than the fastest blockade runner or fleetest Covert-Ops ship. Safer than the highest EHP Jump Freighter. Because nobody knows what you have behind all the EHP - and they won't get it anyway. The less dim traders out there have figured this out long ago - and this abuse needs to end.

3. Crimewatch seems to be about getting other players involved in law enforcement! Thats Great! Guess that means we can roll back Concord a bit, then.

You know, kind of like 2007/2008. When Concord took 30 seconds to show up in 0.5, and sec status penalties were about 1/3 of today. I am all for greater player involvement in enforcing high-sec rules, rewards for 'white hats', a meaningful bounty/sec status reward system. Even the 'suspect' flag can be worked with - (though if it happens, I'd like to see ALL player wrecks set blue - not just for gankers - so a succesful sui-ganker can actually loot a victim without having to picking up aggro from everyone else on the gate. As it is, its already a race with the vultures....)

But with all that extra player involvement, we don't need Concord to be quite so lightning prompt, now do we? As it is, annoying pop-ups and normal trans-Atlantic lag (or crappy internet service) eats up a LOT of your 'ganking window'. Reset Concord to 2008-era reponse times, give gankers a bit more 'breathing room' to account for lag-issues and additional risks added by Crimewatch.

4. Return Concord Pop-up Window defaulting to 'YES' from 'No.'
-Sorry to say this, CCP but this was a **** move. That window (impossible to shut off in highsec, BTW) is dealt with by the ganking community far more than any other class of player. In just TONIGHTs miner ganking session, I've had to clear it 36 times. Yes, Tab-Enter is FAR more annoying than just hitting Enter, because only have two hands and one is on the mouse.

I don't get it - is your aim really to eventually force gankers down the road of hotkey and macro use, just to clear multiple clunky pop-ups? You know, kind of like a sick joke - as miner gankers tend to blow up botters and AFKers more than anything else?

Granted, sounds like you are going to have this 'fixed' with Crimewatch safety condoms for carebears. (and kill off the entire 'profession' of baiting and destroying LVL 4 mission runners in the process....well, it was a 4 year run, Suddenly Ninjas, sorry CCP don't want you around no more.....) But I suppose we'll get to that bridge when someone starts coding on something other than a whiteboard.

5. I don't know! What do you think??
I understand that gankers tend to be a pretty adaptable bunch. Generally we just figuring out how to make things work through experimentation and practice. We just aren't used to asking CCP to change the conditions of the game on our behalf - short of asking for clarifications of stealth-nerfs and complaining about the goalposts always being shifted against us.

Here is a thread where those who specialize in blowing up and requesitioning 'high-sec assets' can speak up.
Mentally challenged carebears and 'leet' PVPers need not chime in. This isn't about PVP. Its about PvC. Because we all know that Carebears aren't players. They aren't even people most of the time.



Multiply EVERY ship's align time by 2.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
I Accidentally YourShip
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2012-03-28 12:58:08 UTC
Personally I think suicide ganking is in a pretty good place where it is already, even after the insurance change. High sec status isn't needed if you coordinate with someone who has high sec status and can set you up a target to go directly to from low sec. T3 battlecruisers gave us all the gank of a battleship and all the speed of a battlecruiser, a deadly combination for suicide ganks. Dessie change made budget suicide ganks amazing (<3 catalyst) and CONCORD's response time is slow enough to work with. Solo suicide ganking not so much, but Brutix suicide gank on a Hulk is still viable and economical.

Hopefully the war dec changes that are coming will make suicide ganking less necessary, and make high sec a bit more dangerous.

Masikari wrote:


Think of HS as a shopping arcade, and you are the hooded thug preying on the young and weak. They walk out of a shop carrying an expensive purchase and you pounce on them, knock them down and run off with their goods. But there are the security and police watching you on camera's and they quickly swoop in and take you down for your crimes. You know you've done wrong. You know you've committed an act of crime and you know that if/when you've been caught there are consequences. You were aware of these consequences before you even started.


I found this quote adorable. In what utopia do you live in that this happens on a consistent basis? People are murdered all the time and the murderers are never caught. High sec in EVE is safer than a city anywhere on Earth. You can be shot to the head and instantly killed, and there is nothing you can do about it. Then the killer CAN get away or inflict an incredible amount of damage before being stopped. Serial killers, Columbine, Kony, Justin Beiber, etc. There is no guaranteed retribution. Real life is infinitely harsher than EVE ever could be.

The difference between EVE and RL is that the consequences for when you do get caught are difficult to escape from and extremely harsh. You can't just hop in another clone and go kill someone else. If you die you're dead, if you're caught you're either on trial, in jail, both, or dead.

The other difference is that of morality. I could not live with myself if I went and put a bullet in someone's head, destroying the lives of everyone that holds that person dear and it can never be taken back. In EVE you lose a ship/pod/ISK and you can just carebear it up to get it back and I don't feel the slightest guilt in exploding someone's ship.

EVE is a sandbox. I do what I want, and I want to wreck your stuff, preferably in the most explode-y method possible.
Jessy Berbers
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-03-28 13:04:29 UTC
Sorry i dont agree with making it easier for suicide gankers, it is already way to easy....for you to guys to get away without any actual punishment.

Such as 100000 bazilion bookmarks enabling you to jump at will all around the system while staying away from someone who wants to take a little revenge, able to stay this way 200+ km, and when someone gets within any lock range wham, warped again 200km...

It should actually be harder for you guys to gank then it actually is, and especially being able to still dock after agression timer has run out despite being -10 sec status.

No thank you, dont need more of you, next thing you know the whole place is covered in suicide gankers, and highsec turning into some sort of heaven for suiciders.

DIssaprove

Greets

Jessy.
Sarah Estelle
Doomheim
#87 - 2012-03-28 13:07:59 UTC
A few new skills could be added, Ball Growing each level increases the size of your balls by 5%. Spine Finding each level increases the chance of finding your back bone by 5% so you could maybe move to nul sec and PvP for reals?
Atomik Harmonik
Working Girls
#88 - 2012-03-29 05:40:10 UTC
Interesting topic here in GD...also a lot of morons in this thread.

OP and others within this thread have good well-thought-out arguments, but they're like finding gold flecks in a pan of sand.

Most of the drivel seems to be coming from carebears and null 1337 pvp'rs who didn't seem to train reading comprehension even to LVL 1.

As a very casual player myself, with absolutely no ganking/griefing experience I think I'd be unqualified to sit in judgement of the playstyle outlined by the OP and one of the responses (the guy who 'gets it').

I do think, however, that I am qualified to observe that even though there has been decent arguments scattered here and there; the original point of this thread has not been met. Most responses have been to denigrate and ridicule with no thought whatsoever and gleefully exclaim that this thread is whining or tears. The actual 'good parts' of this thread; the thoughtful arguments have basically been centered on 'is ganking good or not'?

These still are NOT actual contributions to the thread's stated purpose of gathering a wishlist of things they'd like to see.

So, with that in mind;

- implants having a % chance to drop from a podkill...I can see where that is logical...somebody dumb enough to lose his pod (me) shouldn't be all upset if somebody gets some drops, just like when I lose a ship, I expect a percentage of what I have in my cargo and my mods will drop to be harvested by the killer.

- player scanning corp hold on an orca; also seems to be a 'no brainer'...CCP 'fixed' it but did a half-@ss job of it when NPCs could scan it to detect contraband, but it's ridiculous that players can't scan it or even expect a drop from it.

- NPC wreck loot in a mission 'belongs' to the person who owns the mission...NPC wreck loot in a belt 'belongs' to the person who killed it...why don't the player-wreck loot items 'belong' to the person who did the killing blow? IMO that should be another logical change.

- I've seen the numbers on the ISK faucets and sinks...and also see the runaway inflation due to the increase in bounty payoffs (the largest ISK faucet) after CCP reduced the loot drops. They forgot that the loot droppings actually helped keep prices lower...everyone printing ISK either by bounties or incursions without new item drops contributes to this inflation IMO...so my suggestion would be to reduce the mission rewards back to about two years ago...lower bounties but more loot. This should be attractive to the mission-invaders and help curb inflation on mods. I actually liked the increased bounties for a while, and didn't care about the loot nerf because I hardly ever saw a ninja anyway and you can handle them easily...but now I see the effects of 'ISK for everyone'...just like in RL if you gave everyone a million euros, the price of all goods and services would rise until the million euros didn't mean anything.

- also to help with the loot drop / supply issue...why don't incursion rats drop anything worthwhile? (correct me if I'm wrong on this point)

- I'm not so sure that killing bots is helping reduce inflation either but I applaud the 'real' players adapting to your tactics and learning. I'm also not too sure about the new macro tagging...what's to prevent this from being abused? example: you don't like somebody, report them as a macro and let them prove their innocence to CCP. I'm not sure what to do about them though.

I actually like the possibility of losing your ship if you do something stupid, even in highsec (which I've done repeatedly)... I remember going to Jita the first time in a Condor...I was afraid I was going to get killed....LOL...but that's what made it exciting, because I had a mentor that introduced me to Eve and explained that I'd get killed in Jita if I was carrying expensive stuff in a frigate or hauler. (back then, I thought 5m was expensive...I was paranoid even buying skillbooks and moving them) Since then, I've learned about the risk/reward and can tailor my ships accoringly, so it's a little more boring/safe....if high security space becomes a completely safe zone, I think it would cause runaway inflation of prices on everything as well as making things boring. I'd be looking for another game.
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#89 - 2012-03-29 14:19:30 UTC
Moved from General Discussion.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
BuzzyBeagle
Centers for Intergalactic Mercantile Acquisition
#90 - 2012-03-29 18:38:01 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
Moved from General Discussion.


and oh so conveniently and tactfully moved by dev to a little known forum nobody ever reads.

the CCP equivelent of shoving a skeleton back in the closet or sweeping dust under the rug.

Tricky CCP...tricky.
Shandir
EVE University
Ivy League
#91 - 2012-03-29 19:16:20 UTC
Buck Futz wrote:

1. Income for Pod Killers
2. Orca 'Stealth' Cargo Bay nerf
3. Crimewatch seems to be about getting other players involved in law enforcement! Thats Great! Guess that means we can roll back Concord a bit, then.
4. Return Concord Pop-up Window defaulting to 'YES' from 'No.'
5. I don't know! What do you think??


As a mostly carebear:
1) No, there is no tangible benefit in encouraging podding in high-sec to anyone except suicide gankers, it's not going to provide fun or interesting gameplay

2) Yes, the Orca cargo bay is 'tarded and should be fixed. Anything on a ship should have a chance of dropping.
I would quite like this balanced by a ~slightly~ less effective scanning method on other ships.

3) In exchange for a 3-5s 'suspect' warmup before you can gank, yes. There needs to be a method for active ships defending the gank victims. Then we could tone down CONCORD's response time a little. It would be nice to have protection / vigilante gangs roaming the belts looking for gankers.

4) Will be fixed soon. (Crimewatch changes)

5) I think ganking is a legitimate minor profession, but as far as the normal player is concerned, it should be a risk for screwing up, not a significant risk all the time. By minor profession, I mean it probably shouldn't be designed to out-value the high end of PvE or Trading activities (when you include mandatory downtime for repairing sec status, etc)
I think an Orca being immune to retribution (either from CONCORD for ganking, or target/allies when ninja'ing) is an unreasonable mechanic and needs to be fixed.
It's up to CCP on the boomerang method, I could go either way, it's cool but it does vastly increase ganking potential for no additional downside (except that people are currently fitting faction mods, that will stop with an orca fix)

6) You will be able to buy sec status soon. (Crimewatch changes)
Fish Hunter
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2012-03-29 19:47:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Fish Hunter
1) income for pod killing - pod killing is a nice isk sink, I think of implants like rigs, you'd probably want rigs to drop too yeah?
2) Orca corp hangar bay nerf would be fine, done stealthily no. Changes have always been published, why are you special.
3) Concord is nerfed enough as is - gankers already got a buff with destroyer changes, hybrid changes, and new battlecruisers
4) Not supported - pop ups could remember your previous response though
5) I have an idea to counter the bs warping around evading concord - when someone gets GCC faction police spawn instantly and point the ship (maybe even just 1 police frigate), concord proceeds to spawn at normal time.

Another idea to make it more exciting for the ganker is people should be able to pay concord to arrive sooner. So the target has paid concord to arrive say in 1/2 the normal time. Ganker tries to gank the target, ganker may succeed or fail, concord shows up faster - concord paid for. If target wants increased protection again target has to pay again.
Shandir
EVE University
Ivy League
#93 - 2012-03-29 21:06:43 UTC
5) I have an idea to counter the bs warping around evading concord - when someone gets GCC faction police spawn instantly and point the ship (maybe even just 1 police frigate), concord proceeds to spawn at normal time.

Boomerang is probably going to be fixed in new Crimewatch, CCP is thinking of skipping the police battleships and just giving CONCORD an off-grid deathray on a timer, that way there can be no CONCORD-evading exploits - you get your (x) seconds, then you explode.
Admiral Lysander
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-03-30 14:03:06 UTC
ive not been much of a ganker but just lijke backj in the day gangsters bribed police not to notise something thay had planned mebe an HRly based bribe system were you can bribe concord for like 100mil for 1hr ?
DooDoo Gum
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2012-03-31 00:53:26 UTC
All bear witness to the tears of a ganker
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#96 - 2012-03-31 03:29:33 UTC
Shandir wrote:
5) I have an idea to counter the bs warping around evading concord - when someone gets GCC faction police spawn instantly and point the ship (maybe even just 1 police frigate), concord proceeds to spawn at normal time.


I'd have liked to see CONCORD reaction times get faster and faster as more crime occurs in a particular system, with a decay.

Maybe increase the sec status of the system (not visibly, just in how CONCORD reacts) by 0.01 security every time they get summoned to a new location. Decay that at a rate of 0.01 every 3 minutes.

So if there's a rash of ganks within a 1-2 hour period, you could push even a 0.5 system up to 1.0 security status (in terms of CONCORD reaction time). But if things quiet off for an hour or two, the higher alert level trails off back to nothing.
Karma Bad
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#97 - 2012-03-31 14:22:09 UTC
It would be a interesting change to see these wish lists pushed through,
It would be refreshing to have something non care bear go through.

I mean really, who besides a bear benefits from a dec shield?
Athos warrior
Doomheim
#98 - 2012-03-31 15:07:24 UTC
[quote=Sasha Azala]Suicide ganking = killing soft targets that don't fight back


You could of course grow a pair and do some real PvP.[/quote


Stated very well

All these crying punks are are in game bullies that would have their teeth kicked in if they tried it in real life. They prey on those that don't enjoy pvp nor want any part of it. There should be more incentives for them to be in low/null sec. Or even more harsher penalties for those ganking in empire

I also believe in CCP permabanning those who use bots or programs to move forward in eve. I work hard for the isk I make, and anyone that can walk away from their computers and let a program make that for them.