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Wardec Changes = Nothing but Large POS

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Josie Alland
1st Tax Avoidance Brigade
#21 - 2012-03-28 18:57:25 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
It will become very easy to hire mercs. Simple.

You mean the same mercs who initiated the wardec using an alt corp? Or the ones who will take your money and do nothing?
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-03-28 20:38:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Katarina Reid
Josie Alland wrote:
Tobiaz wrote:
It will become very easy to hire mercs. Simple.

You mean the same mercs who initiated the wardec using an alt corp? Or the ones who will take your money and do nothing?


what about the merc who work for free? they will be some cuz they dont have to pay for the war that way get more targets. To kill a large tower with ecm mods hardener and stuff going to be a bunch of targets. Also you are not limited by the amount of corps you can hire/invite to the war the attacker cant invite anyone. The attacker is stuck in the wardec for 1 week. I think wardec will backfire on alot of people.
Zarific
Frekmacinations
#23 - 2012-03-28 20:39:20 UTC
Tekota wrote:
Whilst I certainly have some concerns about the proposed changes, many of which are noted above, it's worth keeping some context.

Dec shields were only quite recently moved to non-exploit status.

So a year or so ago, with dec shield an exploit, what did it take to dec a small research pos corp?
If memory serves, 2 million isk dec fee and a 48 hour wait.

With the propsed changes what will it take to dec a small research pos corp?
If I've read things right, it'll take c.20 million isk dec fee and a 24 hour wait.


Given that small and medium POS owning baby research corps existed a year ago quite happily - that is they got stomped on if unlucky/stupid/wrong place, wrong time but otherwise were overlooked - I can't really see this situation changing much under the proposed system. Ie. it's cheap and easy to stomp on small corps and their space assets, just as it (mostly) always has been.



I beleive incentives have changed. From what I understood they are revamping the entire system, to the point that you can "pay off" for a system enforced 7 day dec free period. IE: Get wardecced, pay 75m to surrender, accepted by deccing corp as "payment" and they cannot redec for 7 days.

This gives an incentive to war dec and force payments that, from what I understand, is not currently available. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Zar
Severian Carnifex
#24 - 2012-03-28 22:32:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Severian Carnifex
The worst change CCP made.
So again you want to screw little ppl and make love with big guys?
Again you want to make ppl that don't want to PVP make the best/only war target???
You want that large alliances even don't need neutral alts for hi-sec hauling?????
I see that you want to make large alliances safe everywhere and **** small so that they must disband.
Thnx a lot... NOT!

make little guy pay 5B and large alliance 40 mill?
Yea, thats the best.
Screw the little guy, make so that everybody screw him, and he cant do anything about it, and make him leave the game.
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-03-28 23:57:59 UTC
Severian Carnifex wrote:
The worst change CCP made.
So again you want to screw little ppl and make love with big guys?
Again you want to make ppl that don't want to PVP make the best/only war target???
You want that large alliances even don't need neutral alts for hi-sec hauling?????
I see that you want to make large alliances safe everywhere and **** small so that they must disband.
Thnx a lot... NOT!

make little guy pay 5B and large alliance 40 mill?
Yea, thats the best.
Screw the little guy, make so that everybody screw him, and he cant do anything about it, and make him leave the game.


I think you missed the point.

And I agree with Tekota this change will at worst bring things back to how they were a year ago when war dec shields were an exploit and not an option. Chill - unless you really make someone angry at you, or have a loot piñata of a POS, for the most part you will be ignored.

And incidentally this provides an interesting incentive for small corps to become bigger corps... now if only they fixed POS's and the corp interface so that you could actually run a decent sized industrial corp without having to give everyone massive access rights to damage your work and your assets...
Maria Yumeno
Venomous Cloud
Scorned Syndicate
#26 - 2012-03-29 03:58:55 UTC
7 days after surrender seems a little short. If i were a merc, i would wait out the 7 day timer and re-dec as i knew i would get paid again for no effort :)
It would bring in a good weekly income
Sidrat Flush
KarmaFleet
#27 - 2012-03-29 04:42:17 UTC
Maria Yumeno wrote:
7 days after surrender seems a little short. If i were a merc, i would wait out the 7 day timer and re-dec as i knew i would get paid again for no effort :)
It would bring in a good weekly income



Or it could be a month in which case you only need to find about 8 small but rich corps and cycle between them. That's more regular than moon mining!

Its time to stand up against the bad empire based CEO telling falsehoods about what new characters can accomplish and pushing them towards an in game experience of drudgery and loneliness keeping them in the shadow of ignorance for at nest their own profit at worse apathy towards all the experiences that Eve has to offer.
LifeHatesMe
LifeHatesUsAll
#28 - 2012-03-29 05:14:15 UTC  |  Edited by: LifeHatesMe
Katarina Reid wrote:
what about the merc who work for free? they will be some cuz they dont have to pay for the war that way get more targets. To kill a large tower with ecm mods hardener and stuff going to be a bunch of targets. Also you are not limited by the amount of corps you can hire/invite to the war the attacker cant invite anyone. The attacker is stuck in the wardec for 1 week. I think wardec will backfire on alot of people.
What game are you playing? There are no mercs like that. Not in the 6+ years I've been playing. Shocked


Maria Yumeno wrote:
7 days after surrender seems a little short. If i were a merc, i would wait out the 7 day timer and re-dec as i knew i would get paid again for no effort :)
It would bring in a good weekly income

lol god, bring the popcorn.

Apparently they will make it so after you surrender with the moola in hand, they can't war dec you back for a whole week. I already see the issue. Lets make a rolling corp of war dec corps;
Privateer Alliance 1
Privateer Alliance 2
Privateer Alliance 3
Privateer Alliance 4
Privateer Alliance 5
Privateer Alliance 6

etc. Do they really think things through at all before they post fixes for these war dec things?
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-03-29 06:38:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Katarina Reid
LifeHatesMe wrote:
Katarina Reid wrote:
what about the merc who work for free? they will be some cuz they dont have to pay for the war that way get more targets. To kill a large tower with ecm mods hardener and stuff going to be a bunch of targets. Also you are not limited by the amount of corps you can hire/invite to the war the attacker cant invite anyone. The attacker is stuck in the wardec for 1 week. I think wardec will backfire on alot of people.
What game are you playing? There are no mercs like that. Not in the 6+ years I've been playing. Shocked


Well wardecs after the change will cost alot. To dec goons u need 4b /week eve uni 800m /week. On my pvp alt i will join a big dec ally where they pay the dec's or just get add to dec's for free as a defender. More targets free is a good thing.
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-03-29 16:36:10 UTC
Well CCP wanted to nerf industry completely and they've just succeeded.
If you're not part of a large alliance (read one of the 3 power block alliances) or in a npc corp, you can be griefed (sorry leggally wardeced) out of the game.
This means NO POS's at all unless you part of a massive alliance block, so all the small industrials are now dead. Long live Goons.
If this goes through then I'll be un-subbing - I doubt you'll miss me and I won't be shedding any tears.
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
#31 - 2012-03-29 16:56:19 UTC
Nevryn Takis wrote:
Well CCP wanted to nerf industry completely and they've just succeeded.
If you're not part of a large alliance (read one of the 3 power block alliances) or in a npc corp, you can be griefed (sorry leggally wardeced) out of the game.
This means NO POS's at all unless you part of a massive alliance block, so all the small industrials are now dead. Long live Goons.
If this goes through then I'll be un-subbing - I doubt you'll miss me and I won't be shedding any tears.


I would wager that most small alliance/corps will still be in pretty good shape. Anyone who can afford a dickstar in high sec would really have to **** someone off for them to bother.

However, the really young corps, the ones who are just putting up their first POS and can not afford a billion+ in modules, well, they are already easy targets so I imagine not much will change.
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-03-30 01:22:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaru Ishiwara
bornaa wrote:
This all ****** new war dec system is putting a barrier so that you cant war dec goons or test because it will cost you 5 BILLION isk per week.

You see, CCP want to secure large alliances from decs and screw smaller corps/alliances so that large one can easily attack them directly or with alt corps.
And as i can see, they are really struggling to kill industry in EVE - no fixes or upgrades for indy players for years while making better ganking ships and now they want make so that everybody war decs them.

Nice one CCP. Roll


And one more thing,
when you are attacked you can't do anything about it.
Attacker can easily get out of it - even if CCP is advertising this will make war more of commitment - yea, commitment for indy and smal corps to be screwed.
OK, i'll bite....

I will get this out of the way up front: I'm a null-sec resident and I'm not interested in the least bit with dec'ing high-sec operations.

CCP was ignoring both PvP and Industrial elements of their space-based MMO equally until late 2011. Prior, it was all about balancing and tweaking various aspects of the game while CCP tried to build a Gold shop and their avatar nonsense.

Let's talk about some of the things that CCP did introduce or change w/in the past several years, though:

1) POS anchoring and onlining timer reductions.

2) Noctis, the salvaging salvation for salvagers.

3) Orca, a tremendously popular ship amongst indy folks across all of EVE.

5) Rorqual, a tremendous indy resource for hard core null-sec occupants.

6) Tech 2 modules covering salvagers, tractor beams, hacking and analyzing.

And there are probably more things of which I am unaware or never use during the course of my day-to-day game play.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
Robert Saint
The Grumpy Dogs
#33 - 2012-04-21 05:20:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Saint
Nevryn Takis wrote:
Well CCP wanted to nerf industry completely and they've just succeeded.
If you're not part of a large alliance (read one of the 3 power block alliances) or in a npc corp, you can be griefed (sorry leggally wardeced) out of the game.
This means NO POS's at all unless you part of a massive alliance block, so all the small industrials are now dead. Long live Goons.
If this goes through then I'll be un-subbing - I doubt you'll miss me and I won't be shedding any tears.



I like this post...

Adding = There are many solo players in eve with a few accounts "for the most part" trying to avoid the " PVP/One sided battle gangs" that seem to be so popular. Crafting a small ISK base of Industry or Missioning without PVP. A big draw to EVE for me was the large player base on one server for both PVE and PVP. If a player is ready to PVP, they know where to go, or they can be a carebear until they build up the interest to battle other players.

It seems that CCP is creating a PVP only system little by little, with each new update. I've only been playing 11 months so far, but enjoy the game. I don't PVP personally because there isn't a system setup for solo PVP action, just gangs out numbering a solo player for kicks or large groups of skilled players for big battles.

It would seem CCP should create a better PVP solo system like in other MMO's where a small team or a solo player can enter a room with an equal number of foes to battle on a level playing field for the most part. I doubt this will happen since the vocal "squeaky wheel" players (PVP) seem to be the ones who gets in CCP face about desires for the game. From what I see here and have experienced in game is ALL PVP players with very little exceptions have ZERO consideration for playing fairly and simple want the thrill of blowing another players ship up; and if there is no risk of getting blown up - all the better... Random PVP action makes no sense in this game; since there is no challenge, it's either get outnumbered or join a gang.... pass!
Haulie Berry
#34 - 2012-04-21 15:32:31 UTC
What a bunch of whiny little girls. The entire point of a wardec is to allow Entity A to shoot at Entity B in circumstances where Entity B would otherwise be able to largely avoid such a scenario. If it is trivial to circumvent that intended gameplay mechanic (as it currently is) then it may as well not even be in the game.

Obvious exploit is obvious. Pretty amusing that people are actually complaining about it being fixed.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-04-23 11:41:56 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Pretty amusing that people are actually complaining about it being fixed.

I think you miss the point of all of this

People are moaning about large alliances being effectively 'perma dec shielded' due to the prohibitive cost to war dec them

The emphasis on war costs being tied to the number of people in a corp/alliance is unfairly biased towards larger groups of players.

The larger groups are safer than ever from being war decced and the smaller groups now have an even greater chance of being war decced themselves.

Also, no more will we see the 'David VS Goliath' matchups that were so interesting

Its like CCP decided that the blob mentality of nulsec was so amazing they wanted to bring it to hisec

Nice work :(

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Haulie Berry
#36 - 2012-04-23 13:19:01 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Pretty amusing that people are actually complaining about it being fixed.

I think you miss the point of all of this

People are moaning about large alliances being effectively 'perma dec shielded' due to the prohibitive cost to war dec them

The emphasis on war costs being tied to the number of people in a corp/alliance is unfairly biased towards larger groups of players.

The larger groups are safer than ever from being war decced and the smaller groups now have an even greater chance of being war decced themselves.

Also, no more will we see the 'David VS Goliath' matchups that were so interesting

Its like CCP decided that the blob mentality of nulsec was so amazing they wanted to bring it to hisec

Nice work :(


Actually, no, that's a side point. And it does have some validity. However, the primary point of this particular thread, per both the subject line and the OP's thesis, is, "Whaaa, I can't trivially avoid an intended gameplay mechanic anymore, it's not faaaaaaair!"
Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
#37 - 2012-04-23 15:31:49 UTC
Is paying 4 bill for one week war dec a lot? I never done that so I don't know. In what way does this protect large Alliances ?

Blog | Tutorials | Youtube "I don’t know everything, I just know what I know."
Velicitia
XS Tech
#38 - 2012-04-23 15:33:30 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:

It seems that CCP is creating a PVP only system little by little, with each new update. I've only been playing 11 months so far, but enjoy the game. I don't PVP personally because there isn't a system setup for solo PVP action, just gangs out numbering a solo player for kicks or large groups of skilled players for big battles.


Fact of the matter is, they're returning to the ruthless PvP system that they had years ago. This is awesome (and I'm a hell of a carebear).

Right now the industrial side of a corp is much maligned because it's honestly pointless. Why bother working with/protecting/recruiting miners and industrialists when one can simply pick up and fit a new BC or BS from the market for cheap?

Sure, Indy corps are still "easy prey" for people ... but it doesn't have to be that way --> get to know the "PvP" corps operating in your area ... come to an agreement along the lines of "hey, help us out with wardecs, and you get 1/2 off ships..."

Robert Saint wrote:
It would seem CCP should create a better PVP solo system like in other MMO's ...

Why? Why does CCP need to do this?

The only thing stopping you is the effort involved. Seriously, get a handful of people interested, promote it, get CCP's attention for other promos (e.g. a splash screen at login) when you get big enough ... and have fun.

Reason "other" MMOs have that, is they operate on a completely different mentality than EvE.
There --> PvE all the time, with "some" PvP thrown in as an afterthought
Here --> PvP all the time, with "some" PvE available.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Five Thirty
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-04-23 15:59:59 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
What a bunch of whiny little girls. The entire point of a wardec is to allow Entity A to shoot at Entity B in circumstances where Entity B would otherwise be able to largely avoid such a scenario. If it is trivial to circumvent that intended gameplay mechanic (as it currently is) then it may as well not even be in the game.

Obvious exploit is obvious. Pretty amusing that people are actually complaining about it being fixed.


Hmm, that's odd, I thought war declarations were to allow fighting to occur without concord being involved. It seems that some people think it's another way to cause grief to people who aren't interested in "ALL PVP ALL THE TIME PVPVPVPVPVPVPVP!!!"
Haulie Berry
#40 - 2012-04-23 16:05:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Five Thirty wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
What a bunch of whiny little girls. The entire point of a wardec is to allow Entity A to shoot at Entity B in circumstances where Entity B would otherwise be able to largely avoid such a scenario. If it is trivial to circumvent that intended gameplay mechanic (as it currently is) then it may as well not even be in the game.

Obvious exploit is obvious. Pretty amusing that people are actually complaining about it being fixed.


Hmm, that's odd, I thought war declarations were to allow fighting to occur without concord being involved.



Contrary to what you seem to believe, this doesn't actually conflict with what I said. War declarations ARE meant to allow fighting to occur without concord being involved. This does not mean they are intended to provided only consensual PvP, however.
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