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Each ship should have a base fit.
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#21 - 2012-03-27 20:53:48 UTC
Beckett Firesnake wrote:
Reppyk wrote:
I know that ICE are bad at fitting everything but a hulk and you would need help, but I liked my first condor, with the fit I looted (from the tutorial) and get from the starter station. It was GLORIOUS.
EVE is a sandbox, and any kind of "standard fit" would taint it a bit more.


No in fact i do not have any problem in fitting ships.

But if there is no base fit, how can you see if you are doing it right or wrong?

I do not speak for old players. I speak for new players.


Worse, if there is no standard fit, how can you objectively argue that the hull is too difficult to fit and should be given more CPU or/or Powergrid? With no standard fit that proves that the hull is viable and fittable, it all becomes a haze of subjectivity and opinion.
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-03-27 21:08:45 UTC
No. Trial and Error makes this game great. There should be NO standard builds, not more.

I lied :o
ceyriot
Empyrean Academy
Empyrean Edict
#23 - 2012-03-28 00:17:07 UTC
Yes and no.

Yes, because it makes sense, and would certainly help out noobs.

No because the certificates already give you an idea of where you should be. Part of Eve is discovering stuff on your own, and not having your hand held through the whole thing.

Another reason for no to this is ships that have multiple rolls. For example, you can fit an Osprey for Mining, which is what most newer players would do...but on the other hand, most older eve players use it exclusively for RR - which one would you display? Both? Also, would this be on every ship in the game? How would you do this on a T3 hull? Personally, I think having this for just frigates wouldn't be so bad, but anything above that is pushing it.

I think its a good idea in theory, but I think CCP has gone as far as they are going to do with certificates - and I don't really want them to go much further.

Not Flyinghotpocket's alt. At all.

Faction Warfare is like Fight Club. But with spaceships.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#24 - 2012-03-28 00:57:08 UTC
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:
I don't trust CCP to know what ships are actually good for. Have you ever read the descriptions of ships ingame?


I don't trust CCP to produce balanced ships. I don't trust CCP to produce a selection of ships where none are underpowered.

If CCP commits to presenting one "decent" fit per hull, a fit that serves the intended purpose of the ship, or just one intended purpose for a multi-purpose hull, then that is proof that they have produced a hull with balanced stats. A hull that is not underpowered, in terms of slots, speed, grid, CPU, when wieved in totality.
Emiko Luan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-03-28 02:26:14 UTC
If it works it's fine, but that doesn't mean you should stop experimenting to try and get better performance out of your fit. The "base fit" is to use the modules you get a bonus to first.

+welcome to my world+ http://emikochan13.wordpress.com http://emikochan13.deviantart.com
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-03-28 10:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Beckett Firesnake wrote:
Each ship have a basic purpose.
So each ship should have a base fit that could be fly by any pilot who have the recommended skills and certificates.
These base loadouts could be rewards in some missions given by agents.
Special missions could give you a Navy version of the ship entirely fitted.
With this base fit it would be easier to see how far your own fit is.
It would help newbies to understand the fitting principles.


I'd use alts to abuse this and then sell those Navy ships on contracts/market, eventually reprocess stuff for minerals.

I'd rather see T1 frigs/cruisers get a decent boost in PG/CPU/slots so that noobs can fit those even with meta stuff, because their problem to use those ships is the lack of skills engineering/electronics.

You're better in a vexor or exequror than a frig, then better in a brutix than a vexor, you fit the dam brutix T1 and can barely hit whatever with those guns but you're always better in than in the dam frig where you should be, this is what is wrong.

Now what's the problem in this way of proceeding or why noobs proceed like this?
Simple, bad progression skills related to what you do in game, bad ships design and most important: too many for the same job
The firs year of a noob in Eve is simply the worst experience of any mmo that I've played, yet I'm here so why?-effort over time, even if the benefits of this will only come for me when something will be done for next noobs generations.
Beckett Firesnake
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-03-28 11:14:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Beckett Firesnake
Right or Wrong are probably not the good approach of what I want to explain.
When CCP created each ship, they were have a precise idea of this ship purpose.
If not, why is there specific certificates for each ship?
It would be a base of reflexion. Of course skills and origninal fitting can change a lot the way each pilot will use the ship.
But without this base fitting it is like a car manufacturer that would sell his cars without wheels and without motor because each driver knows the best wheels and the best motor is ok with his driving skills.
There should have an official base fitting for each ship that correspond of the ship base purpose and in adequation with the recommended certificates.
"Khanid Innovation recommend these modules with the Sacrilège"
Of course each player will modifiy the base fitting! It is a part of the game! But I think it is illogic to think about engineers that create ships with no idea of what will be mount on...
Of course some ships can have two or more roles. But except for T3 ships that are all in one, each should have an unique base purpose even if it is good for lot of things else .
Sahara Uhuru
#28 - 2012-03-28 12:57:45 UTC
Beckett Firesnake wrote:
Each ship have a basic purpose.
So each ship should have a base fit that could be fly by any pilot who have the recommended skills and certificates.
These base loadouts could be rewards in some missions given by agents.
Special missions could give you a Navy version of the ship entirely fitted.
With this base fit it would be easier to see how far your own fit is.
It would help newbies to understand the fitting principles.


Only because players of "other MMOs" are used to being told how to skill and equip their chars it doesn't mean it's a good thing.

If I want to put small turrets in my 'cane then I can do it.
If I want to fly an Amarr Slave ship and arm it with slugthrowers instead of colored flashlights then I can do it.
And that is how it should be.

To say "this is how you should fit your ship" would just lead to players who can't think.
There are enough possibilities to find fits for ships.
Alua Oresson
Aegis Ascending
Solyaris Chtonium
#29 - 2012-03-28 13:54:57 UTC
Thorax
Light Neutron Blasters with 1600mm plate
Heavy Blasters with 800mm plate
Paper LSE tank in mids with no scramble + damage mods and tracking enhancers in the mids.

Which one of those is a "proper" fit?

I have seen all of those in my time.

http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/
Alua Oresson
Aegis Ascending
Solyaris Chtonium
#30 - 2012-03-28 14:02:09 UTC
Punisher:
Gank fit with Medium Pulse lasers, no tank
400mm plate fit with autocannons
"Bleeder" 200mm plate with small repper, autocannons and NOS

Which one of those is the "proper" fit?

Shall I continue? Those are just T1 frigates and cruisers with limited slots. Shall we also discuss plate vs shield curse? Those are two VERY different setups that accomplish very different goals. This is a sandbox. You are free to and even encouraged to find fittings and styles that work for you. I don't want a theme park MMO. If you want recommended fits, go play STO and quit ******* with my sand.

http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/
Alua Oresson
Aegis Ascending
Solyaris Chtonium
#31 - 2012-03-28 14:06:04 UTC
Hurricane:
Shield tanked nano setup, good for kiting
Plated Armor tanked brawler

Which one of those is the ******* "standard" fit?

http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/
Beckett Firesnake
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2012-03-29 07:10:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Beckett Firesnake
Alua Oresson wrote:
Punisher:
Gank fit with Medium Pulse lasers, no tank
400mm plate fit with autocannons
"Bleeder" 200mm plate with small repper, autocannons and NOS

Which one of those is the "proper" fit?

Shall I continue? Those are just T1 frigates and cruisers with limited slots. Shall we also discuss plate vs shield curse? Those are two VERY different setups that accomplish very different goals. This is a sandbox. You are free to and even encouraged to find fittings and styles that work for you. I don't want a theme park MMO. If you want recommended fits, go play STO and quit ******* with my sand.


For a Punisher, an Amarrr ship, the base fit should have small lasers, probably pulse lasers.
Of course all ships can be fitted many ways.
But the base fit should be fittable if you have only the recomended certificates with no need of other skills.

It is perharps my bad english, but if you do not understand the difference between a base fit and a good fit, there is a problem.

I would like to add that I am fed up with these people that do not accept the possibility that someone could have another view on something and do not even take time to think about it. It is intolerance, it is facism to tell me to quit only because I think different.

I did not say I do not like Eve. I Just think it is possible to make it better.
And if you thought just a second you would see that the fact each ship could have a base fit based on its first role and on the skills recommanded is just logic that change nothing about the fact you could create a better fit more adpated on your purpose and your skills...
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#33 - 2012-03-29 10:46:38 UTC
Beckett Firesnake wrote:
It is intolerance, it is facism to tell me to quit only because I think different.
You should stop posting.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Alua Oresson
Aegis Ascending
Solyaris Chtonium
#34 - 2012-03-29 13:32:39 UTC
Beckett Firesnake wrote:
Alua Oresson wrote:
Punisher:
Gank fit with Medium Pulse lasers, no tank
400mm plate fit with autocannons
"Bleeder" 200mm plate with small repper, autocannons and NOS

Which one of those is the "proper" fit?

Shall I continue? Those are just T1 frigates and cruisers with limited slots. Shall we also discuss plate vs shield curse? Those are two VERY different setups that accomplish very different goals. This is a sandbox. You are free to and even encouraged to find fittings and styles that work for you. I don't want a theme park MMO. If you want recommended fits, go play STO and quit ******* with my sand.


For a Punisher, an Amarrr ship, the base fit should have small lasers, probably pulse lasers.
Of course all ships can be fitted many ways.
But the base fit should be fittable if you have only the recomended certificates with no need of other skills.

It is perharps my bad english, but if you do not understand the difference between a base fit and a good fit, there is a problem.

I would like to add that I am fed up with these people that do not accept the possibility that someone could have another view on something and do not even take time to think about it. It is intolerance, it is facism to tell me to quit only because I think different.

I did not say I do not like Eve. I Just think it is possible to make it better.
And if you thought just a second you would see that the fact each ship could have a base fit based on its first role and on the skills recommanded is just logic that change nothing about the fact you could create a better fit more adpated on your purpose and your skills...



Your idea takes away freedom. It imposes a standard of fitting on people. It tells new players "This is how a ship should be fit, no other is acceptable." Your idea stifles innovation. Eve is all about doing things differently. I oppose all ideas that would tell me how I SHOULD be playing the game. Giving a base fit would do just that.

For the majority of Eve Players the time spent in game is 3 months or less. In time these base fits would be seen as gospel and would influence fitting decisions. That is why I think they are bad.

http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#35 - 2012-03-29 14:44:21 UTC
Alua Oresson wrote:

Your idea takes away freedom. It imposes a standard of fitting on people. It tells new players "This is how a ship should be fit, no other is acceptable." Your idea stifles innovation. Eve is all about doing things differently. I oppose all ideas that would tell me how I SHOULD be playing the game. Giving a base fit would do just that.

For the majority of Eve Players the time spent in game is 3 months or less. In time these base fits would be seen as gospel and would influence fitting decisions. That is why I think they are bad.

This. While it's good to have a list of "basic fits", having it in game and published by CCP, rather than by a 3rd party website, gives it an amount of legitimacy that really would harm more than it would do good.

For example, right now there are two common ways to tank a Rifter: shield, and armor. If the "basic" fit is an armor one, the Rifter will be labeled as an armor tanking ship, which results in newbies extrapolating that Minmatar is an armor race, which results in horrible fits across the board. That is in addition to the fact that the shield Rifter would be underused.

Every time you spoon-feed something to anyone, they can get an illusion of knowing that they're doing. Eve is hard. I get that. But giving people just an illusion that they know what they're doing is detrimental in the long term. It's better that they have to work for the knowledge, either via research, trial and error, or both.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Andrea Griffin
#36 - 2012-03-29 15:49:11 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I guarantee you will get plenty of horrible fits in response.

Ed: Alternatively if :effort: is a problem just go to http://eve.battleclinic.com/browse_loadouts.php

Hm. That seems backwards to me.
Quote:
Alternatively if :effort: is a problem just go to http://eve.battleclinic.com/browse_loadouts.php

I guarantee you will get plenty of horrible fits in response.

Ah, there we go!

CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#37 - 2012-03-29 15:51:30 UTC
Andrea Griffin wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I guarantee you will get plenty of horrible fits in response.

Ed: Alternatively if :effort: is a problem just go to http://eve.battleclinic.com/browse_loadouts.php

Hm. That seems backwards to me.
Quote:
Alternatively if :effort: is a problem just go to http://eve.battleclinic.com/browse_loadouts.php

I guarantee you will get plenty of horrible fits in response.

Ah, there we go!

Well, I meant that Battleclinic is an effortless way to get bad fits. Apologies if that didn't get across.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Alua Oresson
Aegis Ascending
Solyaris Chtonium
#38 - 2012-03-29 15:57:52 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Andrea Griffin wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I guarantee you will get plenty of horrible fits in response.

Ed: Alternatively if :effort: is a problem just go to http://eve.battleclinic.com/browse_loadouts.php

Hm. That seems backwards to me.
Quote:
Alternatively if :effort: is a problem just go to http://eve.battleclinic.com/browse_loadouts.php

I guarantee you will get plenty of horrible fits in response.

Ah, there we go!

Well, I meant that Battleclinic is an effortless way to get bad fits. Apologies if that didn't get across.


Hey! Evil I find that Battleclinic is a great site. Shocked They have LOTS of brick drakes that you can look at. Twisted

http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#39 - 2012-03-29 21:01:12 UTC
Quote:
I would like to add that I am fed up with these people that do not accept the possibility that someone could have another view on something and do not even take time to think about it. It is intolerance, it is facism to tell me to quit only because I think different.


Good sir... the entire premise of your OP is centered around the idea of giving people "recommended fittings" so they don't have to think about how to properly fit a ship.

Seriously, if you give a newbie a fitting what is he/she going to think?
- "Oh cool... how can I improve upon this fit?"
- "Oh cool... I'm going to train my skills to specifically use this fit!"

Nine times out of ten, I'll put money on the latter.

How did you Veterans start?
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#40 - 2012-03-29 21:08:14 UTC
Eh, I could see that. Just have a couple sample fits for short range and long range PvE using tier 1 equipment so that newbies can look at it and see things like "have all your weapons the same range" and "you should probably stick an AB or MWD on that dogfighter".

Though honestly they can pretty easily get simple fits from the new citizens' forum.
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