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Scarlet Letters and Botters

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Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#321 - 2012-03-28 03:50:31 UTC
hermot wrote:
Would it be a better deterrent to not let bots use PLEX to pay for their accounts? Once caught, they are banned from using PLEX for (insert time here).

Also, having a Scarlett letter upon application to another corp is a good idea.

I really like this idea.Big smile

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Digital Messiah
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#322 - 2012-03-28 04:43:52 UTC
Well for one, we would know who to suicide gank if we thought they were botting again. Not that people who don't bot or look like it aren't anyways. I don't see the harm in this at all. Another is to protect corporations and alliances from unknowingly recruiting botters. This is important as it may prevent others from learning from this player. Or being tempted into this life style.

Just my two cents. Thank you for your time CCP Sreegs.

Something clever
Amsterdam Conversations
Doomheim
#323 - 2012-03-28 04:46:30 UTC
I'd like name and shame simply as proof that the ones I'm reporting were actually confirmed botting & banned.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#324 - 2012-03-28 04:58:02 UTC
Botleten wrote:
Its obvious that youre someone who doesnt fully understand the mechanics of how botters operate, so I'll try to explain it in a way you understand through an example: Someone goes onto character bazaar, find lowest possible SP tengu pilot with good ratting skills and nothing else, buys it for a few billion isk. Sets up the new character on a seperate account, runs it for a few weeks. They take the isk earned, use it to buy assets then transfer assets to their main. Bot character gets caught a week or 2 later and isk is removed from their wallet. The botter still has all the ill-gotten gains and made back the isk used to buy the character within a day or two after getting it. The character that is caught, sitting there with a -15 billion isk balance, is biomassed. Rinse and repeat.


It's obvious that you're someone who doesn't fully understand how CCP goes about banning botters, so I'll try to explain it to you through an example:

1) Botter goes to character bazaar, buys tengu pilot
2) Botter starts ratting with a bot
3) CCP detects botting behaviour and bans EVERY SINGLE ACCOUNT associated with that player
4) ALL ISK generated through botting is removed from the wallet(s) of those accounts, in some cases this will result in negative ISK balances
5) None of those accounts are allowed to trade characters anymore, so the player can no longer buy tengu pilots on those accounts

So all that ISK that was "transferred to the main" is gone too.

How do you buy a new tengu pilot when you don't have any ISK to buy it with?

Tie this in with the validation of identity coming up in the next couple of months and you'll start to realise that it is going to get a lot harder to maintain a botting operation. Sure, in the first instance the botters will just keep cycling through GMail accounts. Ultimately I expect CCP will take action on that front too: thanks to Google Analytics it's relatively easy to tell that "john.doe@gmail.com" is also "jane.frank@gmail.com" and is also "bobby.mcfattypants@gmail.com" because the guy behind those three accounts has at least once in the last four years forgotten to clear cache, history and cookies before logging in with another account from the same IP address.

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Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#325 - 2012-03-28 07:04:20 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

3) CCP detects botting behaviour and bans EVERY SINGLE ACCOUNT associated with that player

CCP does not always success at this as evidenced by many posts on botting forums. They often seem to leave some accounts alone for reasons that even the botters themselves don't understand.
And of course serious botters try very hard to keep accounts separated.

once the isk has been converted into rl money the botter doesn't have to worry much about asset seizure anymore - as the post you replied to points out it is very much a race against the clock that CCP has to win.
Sin Pew
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#326 - 2012-03-28 07:16:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Sin Pew
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

3) CCP detects botting behaviour and bans EVERY SINGLE ACCOUNT associated with that player

CCP does not always success at this as evidenced by many posts on botting forums. They often seem to leave some accounts alone for reasons that even the botters themselves don't understand.
And of course serious botters try very hard to keep accounts separated.

once the isk has been converted into rl money the botter doesn't have to worry much about asset seizure anymore - as the post you replied to points out it is very much a race against the clock that CCP has to win.

Yeah, it's clear the Inquisition and the Holocaust are great examples to follow then. I'm sure Joan of Arc would love the idea.
TL;DR
Mara Rinn wrote:
Why not just gank them regardless of having a bother mark or not? Do you seek external justification for your actions? Why can't you be more internally motivated (i.e.: grow some balls)?

[i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]
Stoogie
Cadre Assault Force
#327 - 2012-03-28 07:17:42 UTC
Name and shame, I don't want botters or their isk in my corp so I would like to be able to see them before I get them into corp.
Ch3244
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#328 - 2012-03-28 07:22:30 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
jonnykefka wrote:
It adds another "risk" weight to botting. Many corps won't touch botters, especially as bot-acquired assets are seized. If the practice of "scarlet letters" is itself advertised, it basically means anyone who chooses to bot does so knowing that they will lose all of the assets they gain and probably have to biomass their char if they ever get caught. It's all risk vs. reward calculations, so up the risk and the overall behavior of botting will likely become less common.


But does simply adding risk without the capacity to become a good citizen by curbing action make sense is I guess what I'm curious about?

I know EVE and I know actions should have results but I'm a bit concerned about the terms.

The red letter need not be permanent. Perhaps 3-6 months, maybe a year or more depending on the amount of isk involved.

The reality is it would become permanent, because someone would surely establish a database with everyone who was ever marked.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#329 - 2012-03-28 07:38:40 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
AkJon Ferguson wrote:
The primary advantage of the scarlet letter would undoubtedly be as a deterrent and I support the concept for that reason.

Maybe the scarlet letter could be removed after say 1 year of good behavior?


But I could argue that there are plenty of other deterrents in place. This one has the additional negative of also providing a disincentive for turning into a Good Guy, which is something we've been trying to prevent.


Can't do the time?

Don't do the crime.


Are you talking about applying the "Scarlet letter" to the account or the character used to bot? "Casual" botters rarely bot with their mains - heck, they usually use a seperate account anyway so far as I am aware. Can you produce stats that would indicate that the concern you are raising is numerically significant?

I agree that a scarlet letter applied to a specific character - one which is now locked into that account - is likely to lead to the character being biomassed, but I'm not convinced that this would be "fatal" to the player involved. If someone has no more involvement with EVE than to bot, then good riddance to them. If the player is involved in actual gameplay, then they'll switch to some other method of generating income (hopefully an EULA-compliant one).

The main benefit to we the players of "scarlet letters" is to be able to unambiguously identify botters, and those organisations that tolerate or even cater to them.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ceratin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#330 - 2012-03-28 08:09:20 UTC
WeRWatchingU wrote:
One of the biggest problems with this entire idea, is the fact that I personally know of several accounts that have been banned for botting, but the person who owned the accounts never used a bot. He's disabled, mines to support his sons efforts in null sec

He's been band twice, just because he has auto reject on and doesn't talk to anyone in local. EVER. The pilots that gank him report him as a bot because he doesn't respond to their hails, nor does he cry in local when he gets poded. He's just dedicated to providing isk for his son in null sec

How would any of this be fair to a pilot like this? The fact that you can get baned just because you auto-reject convos, don't talk in local, but sit and mine for 16-18 hours a day religiously.... there are more pilots like this than you'd think. I personally know of several handicapped people that mine for hours on end, in the same manor, so that they can buy plexs' to play EVE.

Since mining is a simple repetitive task that takes little focus, there are actually several institutions that provide laptops for their residence to play EVE. What do they do? MINE. Yet their accounts get banned all the time, just because they auto reject convos and never talk in local

It's even more pathetic that when they do get banned, they can't petition it because they can't even get on the forum to start one. If their pilots get named, it makes them a target for the pilots that shouldn't even be able to get into a ship in high-sec to start with. The whole system of reporting someone as a bot-then them getting banned needs to be reworked, if your going to publish a list.

Being banned just because joe-the-ahole tried to convo you and you auto rejected it, so he reports you as a bot, is about as lame as as it gets. If your going to publish a list,


LOL shut up
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#331 - 2012-03-28 08:45:11 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Benilopax wrote:
As CCP were saying at fanfest, as people are saying about Mitts.

It's all about consequences.

You do something bad there are consequences, as long as it's made clear to people beforehand I say do it.


This is actually my biggest problem with the thing. We'd be putting ourselves in the position of making a solid statement that would incur player consequences and I prefer to stay out of the sandbox if that makes sense.



That's the whole problem when you take position. You get in the sandbox like it or not once you flag the char, so either you guys smash it straight from the first attempt or you implement something telling yourselves "noes noes I can't see it" while eye balling on it.

You want to make it a good player?
-smash his wallet, take him 50% SP, char stuck in account. 2nd attempt just biomass everything.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#332 - 2012-03-28 08:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
BeanBagKing wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1017458#post1017458

I'll try to respond to your post, but just to keep this thread a bit cleaner, I'm not going to quote everything that you said

1) "pretty much known" is fancy forum speak for "I'm guessing this is how they do it, but I really don't know". You and me both know it. Neither of us are security experts, and honestly, despite the criticism, there's probably only a handful of people in Eve with the ability and experiance to do Screegs job, most are just forum warriors.


Being a very "public face" on the MD forum, heavy investor / consultant and auditor (= super "investigator"), I had many opportunities to talk with hundreds and hundreds of players, hundreds of full API keys and much more, including hi sec, lo sec, WH and 0.0 individuals and alliances. I found out a number of botters and even RM Traders both before and after being caught. It's why I have a certain knowledge of what happens and how it goes. You maybe don't, but I do.


BeanBagKing wrote:

2) I don't think or expect that CCP would make a public apology if they did make a mistake. This is something I'd like to hear more about from Screegs. Have you guys ever found you've made a mistake? Have you been corrected by that player and/or his petition? What is done in the case that you do find yourselves in error?

On second thought I have heard of someone petitioning a macro ban and getting it reversed with an appology from the GM. https://sites.google.com/site/khromtor/oldrigs Now, there may have been some trouble involved in getting it reversed. I'll be honest and admit that after getting home at 10pm I don't feel like re-reading the entire page, but the first section contains the part I'm referencing.


That was a very rare case of extreme multi-boxing NOT of botting.
This is very important to say, because the former can prove he has the actual hardware at hands and show how he does it, the latter CANNOT EVER.

A guy who gets tracked for botting (i.e. because somebody reported him):

- Won't know an investigation has been started on him. All he will see is either nothing or a sudden interruption of gameplay.
- Even if he had, he won't have any tool to gather evidence on his favor.
- If he gets banned he's insta-forum banned, insta-ANYTHING EvE banned. Only way to contact CCP is a very ancient and obsolete general contact form, where he'll be in the same queue with spam, people asking CCP for info about the game, general contact information and so on. This means that by the time he gets the first reply (weeks) his ban has already been lifted, making the whole petitioning process pointless.
- During these weeks he will lose his in space assets or at least have them sitting passively and with no shields etc.
- Of those I talked with, no one EVER got reimbursed. No one EVER was given any tool to prove his innocence. No one EVER got the process reversed. No one EVER got shown the logs claiming his wrongdoing.
It's a completely single-sided process where the accused party is completely excluded off any way to defend themselves. Can't produce proof, can't send logs (the few residing on the client).
- They ban all the related accounts (I don't know how but seeking for same subscriber payment details could be the way) yet in case of behavioral ban, CCP don't track of non bottable contemporary activity played on the other accounts. I.e. in theory you can get banned because you were investigated on 2 open clients while actively chatting in corp with 10 other people on a third. Nor sending the chat log of such convo will be accepted as proof (can be tampered of course!)

Basically who gets accused is IMPOTENT, be him guilty or be him innocent. The handful who buy another subscription JUST to post in General Discussion about their innocence, get autobanned after a short while (I think next downtime but THIS is hard to find information), they also get manually banned sooner, because talking about a ban, and all of this usually only cause mass derision and disbelief by the angry mob.

I have no reason to believe or not believe that those who told me this were actually innocent or not (guess what? No evidence can be gathered by me either except for RMT) but if you extract only the procedures used to deal with them, the whole process sucks and I would not want anyone innocent to be hit by such a truck. Expecially in a game where you spend many years achieving something and where everybody else are out to remove you whatever the means involved.


BeanBagKing wrote:

Again, it's placing the power in the hands of the players, which I think is a good thing.


No, it's placing power in the hands of a bunch of hateful idiots who can't wait to throw their frustrations over the designated Star Marked pariah. Just look at the other threads in the first page for abundant proof.

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Josef Djugashvilis
#333 - 2012-03-28 09:00:11 UTC
First conviction for botting - no name and shame
Second conviction for botting - name and shame

This is not a signature.
Sturmwolke
#334 - 2012-03-28 09:14:38 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

How do you buy a new tengu pilot when you don't have any ISK to buy it with?


- Assets, sell them. One that comes to mind are floating secure cans. If only CCP allows scanning them down .....
- ISK laundering operations. Seemingly legit schemes used as cover.
Doctor Eezee
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#335 - 2012-03-28 09:22:16 UTC
So I just skimmed over the thread, because I couldn't really be bothered to actually read 17 pages of the same bad arguments.

Somehow people actually think that people with the "Scarlet Letter" will actually continue to use that character. People will just quit the game.
CCP will lose money and the players haven't actually gained anything, because 92% of first time offenders never do anything again.
And the guys who actually should be banned, the "hardcore botters", will just buy another Tengu char, because 6b is not that much and people will always find ways to hide their isk somewhere.

I'm pretty sure that at most 1/10th of the guys in here have actually watched the presentation, otherwise they wouldn't make these suggestions.

"My rule is: If you meet the weakest vessel, attack; if it is a vessel equal to yours, attack; and if it is stronger than yours, also attack..." - Admiral Stepan O. Makarov
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#336 - 2012-03-28 09:28:43 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Please try to stay on topic. If this thread gets garbaged (Sarah Palin License to invent words) then we'll clean it but I'd rather we just stick to the topic and provide some really good input personally.


You know i once tried to stay on topic like you...








... But then i took an arrow in the knee.

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#337 - 2012-03-28 09:30:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Sin Pew wrote:
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

3) CCP detects botting behaviour and bans EVERY SINGLE ACCOUNT associated with that player

CCP does not always success at this as evidenced by many posts on botting forums. They often seem to leave some accounts alone for reasons that even the botters themselves don't understand.
And of course serious botters try very hard to keep accounts separated.

once the isk has been converted into rl money the botter doesn't have to worry much about asset seizure anymore - as the post you replied to points out it is very much a race against the clock that CCP has to win.

Yeah, it's clear the Inquisition and the Holocaust are great examples to follow then. I'm sure Joan of Arc would love the idea.

I have already posted my opinion two times in this thread, not going to post it a third time.

As to your post - I'm not a religious person but I have great respect for the catholic church and that institution's ability to transfer its doctrine through the times. In my opinion the relentless fight against heresy - prominently starting with the Arians in the 3rd century and the Nestorian Schism in the 5th was absolutely crucial to the survival and success of a recognizable Christian creed.
The large number of protestant churches each with its own set of beliefs and more recently the pentecostal churches introduce an element of ambiguity and the notion of faith being based on personal preference (as opposed to one universal truth) which are highly dangerous to the role of Christianity as a common/uniting source of values and beliefs.
If you think I have an issue with the Inquisition you are wrong.

(yes, the case of Joan of Arc was an unfortunate and politically motivated one - but a retrial happened very soon after her death and she was cleared of all accusations of heresy. But when dealing with people with "visions" I generally approve of the stance that Dostoyevsky's Grand Inquisitor takes: it is sincerely regrettable but sometimes you have to do all the wrong things for the right reasons).
Kell Tarhun
Neptunis
#338 - 2012-03-28 09:37:09 UTC
Dear CCP Sreegs

It my opinion you asking huge population of 0.0 players "Do you wan't your profits to be minimalized".
By marking bot player you simply give us players option to see which player is involved in RMT and botting.
Many of us wait for such move for years.... Many of my friends left this game considering no real actions against boting in 0.0 and in game. Personally i see those bots i reported still running and making isk.

1 single botting corporation is capable to ruin enjoyment of thousand players as those who know whats going on see no sense fighting vs endless isk in botters wallet.
Giving us option to actually see involved chars in botting is great idea.

Benefits:
- players will see that CCP team started to do sth against RMT and botting as atm there is more public relation manouvers than real fight vs bots as i see in 0.0
- high sec players might move to 0.0 as there will be more space for real players as botters leave (alliances need to make profit, if bots gone players will generate it)

Losses:
- well those who gain isk using bots will propably flood you of ideas against making their interest public
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#339 - 2012-03-28 09:51:46 UTC
By all means mark the person as a cheater, all their accounts. But put a time limit on it, if they dont re-offended in 12-18 month then clean the slate.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#340 - 2012-03-28 10:00:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Kell Tarhun wrote:


Benefits:
- players will see that CCP team started to do sth against RMT and botting as atm there is more public relation manouvers than real fight vs bots as i see in 0.0
- high sec players might move to 0.0 as there will be more space for real players as botters leave (alliances need to make profit, if bots gone players will generate it)


CCP has started to do more than "sth" against RMT.

- They hired CCP Sreegs and a team just to tackle the issue.
- They are changing loot and bounties over the months to make certain obvious bot friendly activities harder (i.e. ratting nerf).
- They have invented PLEX and now more or less controlling their price as a direct competition against RMTers (in multiple dimensions).
- They introduced client side detection.

All these things are not so blatant but are statistically relevant.

Sadly it'a a game of police and thieves, therefore the RMTers will always try and find new ways to counter CCP's policing.
0.0 is particularly hard, because 0.0 is the perfect bot paradise. The RMTers will go in rarely if ever frequented out of hand places. Few guys to report them compared to hi sec (where every ice mining system and missioning system has dozens in local all the time, all eyes who can see and click report). Often times, those who could report them are blue to them.
Their bots are not the stupid hi sec mining bots: their bots detect who enters in local, can warp around, can warp to POS. I would not be surprised if they also mimicked some human behavior or could reply to easy questions.

Basically CCP are doing great with the statistic detection systems but don't have the ability to put a squadron of employees watching over the players shoulders in hundreds of 0.0 systems. The statistic detection system might be partially or totally automated, while the "I report 0.0 bot => CCP employee checks it out over days => action taken" process could take a lot of time.

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