These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Titan changes - update

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2012-03-27 18:54:52 UTC
Akelorian wrote:

because you fly a missile titan, knowing full well how horrible they are, you are trying to push for the rest of the titans to do the same. Please can you make your next graphs into pie charts?


If it makes you feel better: I fly an Erebus, have blapped stealth bombers with it ( https://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/527997 ), and am calling for their nerf.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#182 - 2012-03-27 18:55:08 UTC
Kaj'Schak wrote:
There is also the question, if you field 50 Ships worth 70b each, you should be somehow able to vaporize an enemy fleet, that has only the value of one or two of these ships

"i should be able to buy victory"
Kozmic
State War Academy
Caldari State
#183 - 2012-03-27 18:57:14 UTC
Ivana Twinkle wrote:

I take it you havent read the thread where these graphs was requested by greyscale


BTW.. how do we feel about the fact that CCP Greyscale can't do a few clicks in EFT himself to check stuff out? Preferably before doing rebalancing stuff?
EnderCapitalG
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#184 - 2012-03-27 18:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: EnderCapitalG
Kozmic wrote:
Ivana Twinkle wrote:

I take it you havent read the thread where these graphs was requested by greyscale


BTW.. how do we feel about the fact that CCP Greyscale can't do a few clicks in EFT himself to check stuff out? Preferably before doing rebalancing stuff?


I feel pretty bad, especially when he insulted me by using a 4chan meme to describe me proving him incorrect.

Edit: 4chan/reddit, same thing.
Ivana Twinkle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#185 - 2012-03-27 19:05:01 UTC
EnderCapitalG wrote:
Kozmic wrote:
Ivana Twinkle wrote:

I take it you havent read the thread where these graphs was requested by greyscale


BTW.. how do we feel about the fact that CCP Greyscale can't do a few clicks in EFT himself to check stuff out? Preferably before doing rebalancing stuff?


I feel pretty bad, especially when he insulted me by using a 4chan meme to describe me proving him incorrect.

Edit: 4chan/reddit, same thing.


You're a goon, you had it comming since all of us are drunk mittanis at fanfest anyway :V:
Caneb
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#186 - 2012-03-27 19:06:58 UTC
NimBetu Cayal wrote:

Capitals is the only means a smaller entity has to deal whit a much larger Blobb.
The war in the north has showen us that a 200 man fleet can defend agains a 400 man fleet.

I'm pretty sure bombers, ahacs and various other ships/doctrines have shown that properly used they can take on much larger fleets and come out ahead, without resorting to titans.
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#187 - 2012-03-27 19:14:43 UTC
Kaj'Schak wrote:
There is also the question, if you field 50 Ships worth 70b each, you should be somehow able to vaporize an enemy fleet, that has only the value of one or two of these ships

Battles which are effected by these masses of titans are between entities, which both can afford to lose dozens of these.


You really thought this through, didn't you? Lol
Citamarret
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#188 - 2012-03-27 19:46:57 UTC
I'll go ahead and say what we're all thinking: the best way to deal with this problem is to create a new class of ships even larger than Titans (Super-Titans???) that will be responsible for Titan-blapping.

Thoughts?/
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#189 - 2012-03-27 20:00:47 UTC
CCP, come on, just remove the stupid ewar immunity and let the players fix the problem, via gratuitous use of Tracking Disruptor II, and a side helping of Remote Sensor Damper and ECM. Get rid of this stupid "special case".

You're always going on about wanting to make more ships useful in fleet, well, here's how even T1 frigates and cruisers can be useful on a supercapital battlefield.
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#190 - 2012-03-27 20:33:19 UTC
"We don't want to special-case Titan guns"

"Titans are immune to electronic warfare and regular warp disruptors and scramblers"

Greyscale, you have a problem that requires a solution. A very good solution was presented to you, and you seem to be turning down because it might require some effort in figuring out a bit of math. Titans are already special cases. So what if you have to fix their gun mechanics by adding a component to their damage function? They can't get any more special-case than they already are.
de4deye
Terra Nova Innovations
Sedition.
#191 - 2012-03-27 20:35:59 UTC
Bring back AOE DD!
EnderCapitalG
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#192 - 2012-03-27 20:42:33 UTC
de4deye wrote:
Bring back AOE DD!


That's the exact opposite of progress.

As much as I'd like to see 100 Titans drop and light them, No.
Smoke Adian
#193 - 2012-03-27 20:54:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Smoke Adian
EnderCapitalG wrote:
de4deye wrote:
Bring back AOE DD!


That's the exact opposite of progress.

As much as I'd like to see 100 Titans drop and light them, No.


Not that it would ever happen, but old school DD weekends a few times a year would definitely be entertaining.

Also, Shadoo's suggestion involving titans being limited to a faster cycling DD rather than conventional weapons is the best idea so far.
Bawsk
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#194 - 2012-03-27 20:57:20 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
EnderCapitalG wrote:
I updated my previous ~Graph~ post. Here's a graph with resists added in (our maelstrom fitting has its largets resist to Kinetic due to drakes, so I'm going with the Biggest Buffer option, which will default to kinetic):

http://i.imgur.com/FOp7y.png


Can you do me one with say double-web/triple-TP?



I understand that you were probably trying to prove a point by having him develop the graph...

But seriously, you gotta look at how silly that looked to people that didn't understand what you were trying
to accomplish.
Developer asks player to make him a graph using free available software about in issue he is about to implement changes to...
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#195 - 2012-03-27 21:04:54 UTC
At the end of the day, I don't think it will ever be possible to find a good balance by changing the combat stats. Either they're good and people will use them too much because they're easy to move around, and the only way to prevent that is to make them weak enough to not be worth fielding.

The real problem is that capitals break the normal pattern when it comes to combat strength VS mobility. As you go up from frigs to destroyers to cruisers and so on, a fleet of the next size up and larger will consistently beat you (assuming similar tech/faction levels), but they pay for that in mobility, they take much longer to get where they're going and back, making it harder to bring that heavy force in time and giving the opponent more time to prepare for the ships being brought. Capitals just jump around and end up being consistent with the rest of the line when it comes to combat strength, but with a mobility that even far exceeds that of the frigates.

I think the only way to get a long term fix is to fit capitals in to that line and remove their jump drives (possibly allowing jump freighters to keep theirs since they don't have any combat capabilities), forcing them to take gates just like any other fleet. It would make moving around a lot harder, but is that really a problem? If it becomes harder to move around, it would be harder to assemble the big huge blobs, it encourages local markets and production and makes it harder to hold on to huge areas of space just for the purpose of having it.

Maybe you can come up with some better of of limiting their movement (that doesn't include a maximum amount of jumps/day or similar - that would mean it would be impossible to hold tackle on a supercap fleet while your own moves into position, thus reducing the risk you face when deploying them, the opposite of what this is supposed to do), but it is the mobility that is the real problem.
EnderCapitalG
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#196 - 2012-03-27 21:15:17 UTC
The best counter to "quickly moving around" is jump drive spool up time. Will also allow for the killing of the cyno frigates that most people use to hotdrop dozens of capitals/supers onto other fleets. A drive spool up of even 30 seconds would give the opposing fleet 30 seconds to neutralize the cyno and if it's killed during that time then the jump is halted.
Vena Saris
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#197 - 2012-03-27 21:24:32 UTC
To CCP Greyscale:
You have large groups of titans in the game like NCdot for example:
http://dumps.eve-leaks.co.uk/nc-dot.com/showthread4749.html?1268-Blap-fittings
They have threads that are just for "blap fittings". Blap in the context of the game means to one-shot a subcap immediately.

I'll give you the quoted text:
Quote:

Blap fittings

So after last night I feel that we need to address how a titan needs to be fit when we call for "blap". Rather than going through all 4 races and telling you all how to completly fit your titans I think the better choice is to just "ask" you to atleast fit the following mods:

Turrent titans:
2 x Sensor boosters
2 x Tracking computers
3 x Dmg mods

Leviathan:
2 x Sensor boosters
1 x Domi target painter

Answers to questions/things to know:
-The reason for 2 sensor boosters is so we can actually lock dudes before they get up to transversal. Plus, we can all lock at the same time!
-Have/use the damn drugs! (Strong Drop is your friend)
-Have multiple types of ammo. 2 types of ammo does not cut it. For the slow folks this means you need close range (ex. antimatter), mid/close range (ex. thorium or lead), mid/long range (ex. iridium), long range (ex. iron).
-Officer mods are HIGHLY encouraged. Primary of these are tracking comps and dmg mods. Please pony up the isk ladies and gents.
-I understand that these fits are hard on cap but tbh you will typically be using mid range ammo.

-Suggestions for Levi fits are welcome but the domi target painter is awesome!
-Fitting out a Rag is like finding a Unicorn so feel free to do what ever you have been doing but if one of you could post your fits in this thread so we can get a std fit across the board for Rags it would be greatly appreciated! They still need to be able to track and lock in the same times as the bus/vatar.

Feel free to chime in here with ideas and such but I don't really think these things are up for negotiation. Please make sure you all have these mods ASAP. If you have questions about the remaining mods to fit on your blap fit feel free to ask here. The time of non standard titan fits is long past.


Do you think this is a problem?
Iniquita
Perkone
Caldari State
#198 - 2012-03-27 21:35:22 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
By far the easiest and simplest to Titans blapping subcaps would be to remove or restrict supercap ewar immunity. Then the players can solve the problem of the tracking-Titan themselves, simply by using Tracking Disrupter I (or possibly a slightly better meta mod, lol).

You could leave in an immunity to ECM I suppose though, after all, multiple TDs have a stacking effect. I'd get rid of the warp disruptor/scrambler immunity though, having penalty-free warp core stabilisers on combat ships is absurd.

Quote:
and in any case the decision we've made is based partly on a desire to avoid special-casing.


Well, this is one "special case" that should be deleted.



This. Removing EWAR immunity from titans and SC's seems the most elegant solution though the modules may need some reduced effectiveness versus these larger ships but it seems the most elegant solution. Perhaps even giving this niche to electronic attack ships or other specialized ewar platforms.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#199 - 2012-03-27 21:36:39 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


It seems like it'd be just as easy just to introduce a sigrad-based damage scaling on XL turrets, which takes you to approximately the same expected DPS in most situations but in a more consistent (ie, less burst-prone) manner, and with the advantage that we can use much simpler math (linear/quadratic scaling) so the average user has a better chance of being able to estimate the likely outcomes. In either case though, it seems like a lot of effort to go to just to force people to fit target painters to their supercarriers; furthermore, the decision we've made is based partly on a desire to avoid special-casing so this sort of approach isn't really on the table right now.


If you guys don't want to go re-doing lots of Mathematics(TM) (which I wouldn't want to do either), slapping a "role bonus" on Titans that nerfs gun tracking would probably be pretty easy. I don't think there's a compelling reason to hellnerf XL tracking in general because one particular ship class over-performs due to its combination of massive tank and massive DPS output.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#200 - 2012-03-27 21:39:46 UTC
Also I'd like to take this opportunity to bring up once again the fact that mid-combat refitting is as much the culprit here as any other factor (if not the biggest culprit). If Titan pilots were forced to choose BEFORE entering the field between using a "blap fit" and one with a tank it seems probable that you'd see a lot less 10m ehp Titan fits entering the field.