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"hopefully this will lead to an interesting ecosystem in lowsec"
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Postradamus
Asstronauts
#1 - 2012-03-27 18:03:34 UTC
Just watched the "crimewatch" presentation from fanfest.

full disclosure: I'm a long-time highsec pirate, engaged in suicide ganks, ninja salvaging/looting, and mission invasions

It's clear from this presentation that the developers engaged in putting the new security status system proposal together are underestimating the lengths people will go to in order to be able to have the kind of gameplay they want.

It's cute that you think you'll have measures in place to stop people who want to engage in highsec piracy from "farming their alts" for positive sec status.

This new crap mechanic is going to end up with organized "fight clubs" of multiple people killing each other in cheap ships for sec boosts. There is not going to be any way to stop it. There will be a massive incentive to farm sec as easily as possible, and a few entrepreneurs will see a selective benefit in organizing these clubs. They will happen.

The devs need to ACCOMMODATE the playstyle desired by people who want to engage in highsec piracy. Trying to block that playstyle will result in people seeking to innovate around the game rules, poking into grey areas, exposing poor game design. That means petitions galore and threadnaughts on the forums.

Devs, you could save yourself a world of pain by throwing out the proposal for a sec hit for killing ships when flagged as a "suspect".
Marduk Nibiru
Chaos Delivery Systems
#2 - 2012-03-27 18:06:07 UTC
Postradamus wrote:


This new crap mechanic is going to end up with organized "fight clubs" of multiple people killing each other in cheap ships for sec boosts. There is not going to be any way to stop it. There will be a massive incentive to farm sec as easily as possible, and a few entrepreneurs will see a selective benefit in organizing these clubs. They will happen.


Sounds like fun!
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-03-27 18:07:14 UTC
If the GMs get tired enough of petitions they can declare something an exploit and ban people abusing it maybe? Roll
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
Eri Em
#4 - 2012-03-27 18:07:27 UTC
Can I have your Stuff?
D3F4ULT
#5 - 2012-03-27 18:08:05 UTC
Postradamus wrote:
Just watched the "crimewatch" presentation from fanfest.

full disclosure: I'm a long-time highsec pirate, engaged in suicide ganks, ninja salvaging/looting, and mission invasions

It's clear from this presentation that the developers engaged in putting the new security status system proposal together are underestimating the lengths people will go to in order to be able to have the kind of gameplay they want.

It's cute that you think you'll have measures in place to stop people who want to engage in highsec piracy from "farming their alts" for positive sec status.

This new crap mechanic is going to end up with organized "fight clubs" of multiple people killing each other in cheap ships for sec boosts. There is not going to be any way to stop it. There will be a massive incentive to farm sec as easily as possible, and a few entrepreneurs will see a selective benefit in organizing these clubs. They will happen.

The devs need to ACCOMMODATE the playstyle desired by people who want to engage in highsec piracy. Trying to block that playstyle will result in people seeking to innovate around the game rules, poking into grey areas, exposing poor game design. That means petitions galore and threadnaughts on the forums.

Devs, you could save yourself a world of pain by throwing out the proposal for a sec hit for killing ships when flagged as a "suspect".



Contrary to your belief about fun, Fight Clubs sound more engaging and reasonable for the course of action.

Your tears. They are tasty.

"Bow down before the one you serve, you're going to get what you deserve"
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-03-27 18:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
I thought Low sec wanted more attention and participants? Roll

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Postradamus
Asstronauts
#7 - 2012-03-27 18:17:21 UTC
D3F4ULT wrote:


Your tears. They are tasty.



I'm glad you enjoyed them. I shed them in the hopes that EvE will be improved for us all.



This proposal seems like an ill-thought-out attempt at encouraging a certain kind of gameplay in lowsec. I'm arguing that the hoped-for dynamic is unlikely to materialize. The new system won't really encourage people to invest in hunting random -5 or -10 peeps in lowsec. It will encourage people to farm each others' -5 and -10 characters in lowsec.

Farming is boring.

Stop trying to build gameplay dynamics for the players. Give us a sandbox and let us build our own.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-03-27 18:24:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Postradamus wrote:
D3F4ULT wrote:


Your tears. They are tasty.



I'm glad you enjoyed them. I shed them in the hopes that EvE will be improved for us all.



This proposal seems like an ill-thought-out attempt at encouraging a certain kind of gameplay in lowsec. I'm arguing that the hoped-for dynamic is unlikely to materialize. The new system won't really encourage people to invest in hunting random -5 or -10 peeps in lowsec. It will encourage people to farm each others' -5 and -10 characters in lowsec.
.


So really no change from the current low sec attitudes then? Except now you get a bonus to repairing securityBlink

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Serene Repose
#9 - 2012-03-27 18:43:12 UTC
Playstyle. Funny. Put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-03-27 18:53:33 UTC
J3ssica Alba wrote:
If the GMs get tired enough of petitions they can declare something an exploit and ban people abusing it maybe? Roll


Well, I don't know how they will implement it, but a while back myself and others were talking about changes to sec, offering advantages to pirates in pirate space, and sec to antipirate roamers. The way to avoid exploitation is if gain/loss was related to the deemed value of the kills. this would mean that if a player wanted to alt farm sec status back up, he would have to destroy a propotional amount of cheap ships equal to if he just killed one really expensive one. Making sure that any gain or loss fits the action performed. Since it costs isk, any exploit would be moot. Side, is isk purchase sec? Same effect, isk is consumed.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#11 - 2012-03-27 18:57:55 UTC
Its pretty simple - even my small corp can come up with 30+ -10 sec alts to repeatedly pod in order to keep our sec status up. If we can do it, how much more could Goonswarm afford to pod alts to keep an Interdiction going?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-03-27 19:00:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Suggestions have been made in the Crimewatch thread to associate and gradiate assest destruction with the level of security changes.

And as such make them tangeable loses to do this. At the same time the destruction of alts on the same account will also lose effectiveness for a period of time, to avoid self abuse issues.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Postradamus
Asstronauts
#13 - 2012-03-27 19:00:39 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Its pretty simple - even my small corp can come up with 30+ -10 sec alts to repeatedly pod in order to keep our sec status up. If we can do it, how much more could Goonswarm afford to pod alts to keep an Interdiction going?

-Liang


Alts aren't even necessary.

You just take turns. You kill another highsec pirate's main. You go gank or whatever. Then he kills you and takes his turn.
Omu Matol
Repo.
#14 - 2012-03-27 19:45:45 UTC
Postradamus wrote:
Just watched the "crimewatch" presentation from fanfest.

full disclosure: I'm a long-time highsec pirate, engaged in suicide ganks, ninja salvaging/looting, and mission invasions

It's clear from this presentation that the developers engaged in putting the new security status system proposal together are underestimating the lengths people will go to in order to be able to have the kind of gameplay they want.

It's cute that you think you'll have measures in place to stop people who want to engage in highsec piracy from "farming their alts" for positive sec status.

This new crap mechanic is going to end up with organized "fight clubs" of multiple people killing each other in cheap ships for sec boosts. There is not going to be any way to stop it. There will be a massive incentive to farm sec as easily as possible, and a few entrepreneurs will see a selective benefit in organizing these clubs. They will happen.

The devs need to ACCOMMODATE the playstyle desired by people who want to engage in highsec piracy. Trying to block that playstyle will result in people seeking to innovate around the game rules, poking into grey areas, exposing poor game design. That means petitions galore and threadnaughts on the forums.

Devs, you could save yourself a world of pain by throwing out the proposal for a sec hit for killing ships when flagged as a "suspect".



World of Warcraft was able to keep that from happening, using a diminishing returns effect that quickly makes that sort of thing useless. I have all the confidence in the world, CCP can figure out something similiar.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#15 - 2012-03-27 19:49:12 UTC
I for one look forward to finding all the weak spots in highsec's new armor and exploiting them until they get patched or I get warned.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#16 - 2012-03-27 19:52:24 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
If we can do it, how much more could Goonswarm afford to pod alts to keep an Interdiction going?

This. It's basically a free pass to those organizations who possess the numbers to field alt after alt to farm sec status. This only serves to freeze out the smaller groups.

Oh look, something else that serves the big alliances and punishes the independents. Roll I swear, they didn't think this through at all.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Lt Pizi
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-03-27 19:59:48 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
If we can do it, how much more could Goonswarm afford to pod alts to keep an Interdiction going?

This. It's basically a free pass to those organizations who possess the numbers to field alt after alt to farm sec status. This only serves to freeze out the smaller groups.

Oh look, something else that serves the big alliances and punishes the independents. Roll I swear, they didn't think this through at all.


they already said its dimishing returns and tied to isk lost ....

so have fun destroying carriers over and over again on alts

Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume!
Adunh Slavy
#18 - 2012-03-27 20:04:27 UTC
Omu Matol wrote:

World of Warcraft was able to keep that from happening, using a diminishing returns effect that quickly makes that sort of thing useless. I have all the confidence in the world, CCP can figure out something similiar.



With all due respect to CCP, they can screw this up, anyone can screw this up. All it takes is one tiny hole in a well thought out plan for the plan to have little value. I come up with sometimes silly or crazy ideas on these forums all the time, someone usually points out a flaw and I make an adjustment if the idea can be saved. That's all we're doing to CCP, surprisingly, bittervets, despite some of our silly gripes, do know CCP listens.

Anyway ...

Last I heard, CCP's plan was to reduce the reward given by 50% each time a unique character attacks another unique character, so that eventually it is negligible gain not worth doing. The only trouble is, as the OP points out, there are a lot of unique characters out there and the fight club and variations will happen.

There needs to be another limit, perhaps it should be time on how quickly these rewards can accumulate. Limit it to one every 15 minutes, every 10 minutes, in addition to the diminishing return. A fight club may still happen, but it will be a slow affair and not worth much more than hunting rats. If hunting rats or the fight club are equal in time and effort in the end, then that's fine, gives the pirates an excuse to have tea and chat about the latest scummy pirate tricks.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Adunh Slavy
#19 - 2012-03-27 20:04:57 UTC
Lt Pizi wrote:

they already said its dimishing returns and tied to isk lost ....

so have fun destroying carriers over and over again on alts



Have a refrence pls? Thanks.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt