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TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#1 - 2011-09-19 06:58:25 UTC  |  Edited by: TheExtruder
I've tried doing frigate fights in RvB (Red vs Blue) and it was quite fun, we even had fairly regular 10 vs 10 and sometimes even 15 vs 15 frig fights. Fun but eventually it gets boring and one sided. It is hard to arrange bigger ships fights even in a place like RvB, it happens, but not as often as it should (RvB is an alliance/corp that has over 1000+ members combined and is by far the most dedicated place for arranged fights) so if a place like that cannot produce enough of tournaments that we saw on the Alliance Tournaments.

This is the right time for CCP to step in and help the community to arrange some nice tournaments, where commentators and live event broadcasters can make a career out of it. The 'sandbox' population is not yet ready to successfully pull off creating a proper platform for such a business to bloom.
It's just that... it feels so wrong when an organization like Major League Gaming broadcasts a game like League of Legends instead of Eve Online, that just makes me sad because League of Legends must be the most boring looking game i've ever seen broadcasted in the world of broadcasting competitive gaming. I mean if a game such as League of Legends (which is totally a cheap knockoff of DotA) can get into MLG, then I think Eve Online can certainly, with a little effort from CCP can totally pull it off. The sooner Eve Online can get into the world of competitive gaming, the sooner we can expect CCP to stop focusing on expansions that revolve around attracting new players and NPE (New Player Experience). The sooner ccp can focus on all those important balance fixes etc. Its a good strategy, one of those small investments that could potentially turn into a big profit. One thing is for sure, and that is that there is alot of people ready to make those kinds of careers.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#2 - 2011-09-19 07:11:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Xercodo
If this were Tetris my eyes wouldn't hurt as much right now...

I think they can do both tbh. Polishing the stats and mechanics into balance and adding interfaces and the means to do competitive matches fro something like for MLG will give EVE a big chunk of exposure to bring in new player with which the NPE can be used.

I still think the NPE can be improved upon though....(and i don't mean easier or dumbed down)

It could be a bit more user friendly and cover more concepts and topics and they need to find every little loop hole that allows the user to break the tutorial and plug them up (like failing or declining a career agent mission) and making sure they can see how scanning works and that the SOE arc exists. (Wouldn't it be awesome if they could turn flash back on the IGB and then run smaller instantiations of it in the tutorial so that they can see the probing tut?)

But back to the OP, yes balancing EVE to make it competitive and giving us the interface to organize these thing would be cool and give it some publicity with MLG but I find the conveyed resentment to changes to the NPE a bit annoying.

P.S. If they do set up a match mode type thing it still has gotta be on TQ and be full losses though :P

Edit: ...the almost-wall of text isn't made any better by having a normal to bold text ratio as high as the scammer to normal player ratio in Jita....

The Drake is a Lie
michael boltonIII
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-09-19 07:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: michael boltonIII
I'm not gonna say that I'm an expert on the alliance tournament or anything, but there are big problems with bringing EVE into the world of E-sports.

1.) Equal playing field- In all MLG type games the players involved all have essentially the same resources for playing. In EVE that's just not going to happen. All of the players would have to be given special characters with all V's, infinite money, and be stuck in jove space or on an entirely different server.

2.) Instantaneous games- EVE has no structure to create teams, move players, and measure a victory. Everything you see at the alliance tournament is monitored by a CCP employee(s) in real time. A CCP employee would have to monitor every single individual match to ensure that pilots had the proper number of points, no illegal modules, etc.

3.) Viewing experience- EVE isn't designed to be watched. Ask someone who has never played eve before to watch an AT match. They'll tell you that it's basically a bunch of grey bars turning red with a pretty light show in the middle. Even the experts have to guess at what is happening some of the time because visually it just isn't clear.

The amount of time and money that would have to be invested to make this sort of thing happen is much larger than I think you realize.

(P.S.- I actually am an Alliance Tournament Expert)
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#4 - 2011-09-19 07:18:36 UTC
michael boltonIII wrote:
I'm not gonna say that I'm an expert on the alliance tournament or anything, but there are big problems with bringing EVE into the world of E-sports.

1.) Equal playing field- In all MLG type games the players involved all have essentially the same resources for playing. In EVE that's just not going to happen. All of the players would have to be given special characters with all V's, infinite money, and be stuck in jove space or on an entirely different server.

2.) Instantaneous games- EVE has no structure to create teams, move players, and measure a victory. Everything you see at the alliance tournament is monitored by a CCP employee(s) in real time. A CCP employee would have to monitor every single individual match to ensure that pilots had the proper number of points, no illegal modules, etc.

3.) Viewing experience- EVE isn't designed to be watched. Ask someone who has never played eve before to watch an AT match. They'll tell you that it's basically a bunch of grey bars turning red with a pretty light show in the middle. Even the experts have to guess at what is happening some of the time because visually it just isn't clear.

The amount of time and money that would have to be invested to make this sort of thing happen is much larger than I think you realize.

(P.S.- I actually am an Alliance Tournament Expert)


Unfortunately this man is right.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#5 - 2011-09-19 07:28:23 UTC
Why look, its Michael BoltonIII, an e-famous person who happens to be an Alliance Tournament expert...not a singer or that guy from Office Space

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#6 - 2011-09-19 07:34:13 UTC  |  Edited by: TheExtruder
michael boltonIII wrote:
I'm not gonna say that I'm an expert on the alliance tournament or anything, but there are big problems with bringing EVE into the world of E-sports.

1.) Equal playing field- In all MLG type games the players involved all have essentially the same resources for playing. In EVE that's just not going to happen. All of the players would have to be given special characters with all V's, infinite money, and be stuck in jove space or on an entirely different server.

2.) Instantaneous games- EVE has no structure to create teams, move players, and measure a victory. Everything you see at the alliance tournament is monitored by a CCP employee(s) in real time. A CCP employee would have to monitor every single individual match to ensure that pilots had the proper number of points, no illegal modules, etc.

3.) Viewing experience- EVE isn't designed to be watched. Ask someone who has never played eve before to watch an AT match. They'll tell you that it's basically a bunch of grey bars turning red with a pretty light show in the middle. Even the experts have to guess at what is happening some of the time because visually it just isn't clear.

The amount of time and money that would have to be invested to make this sort of thing happen is much larger than I think you realize.

(P.S.- I actually am an Alliance Tournament Expert)


You my friend is way to much set on not wanting it to work, several of your points/arguments are things that can be bent and worked around all in the spirit of making a wonderful change to a game that deserves to be played competitively. Let me walk you through the potential loopholes to your otherwise expert opinions.

1.) all skills to 5, infinite money and all that is such a invalid argument i dont even have to explain... if a gang of people with 20 mil skillpoints can totally own a gang of 150 mil skillpoints, with twice as little resources invested in ships/fittings.

2.) Teams can be created (and already are created, just look at all those alliances that participated in the alliance tournaments). To measure a victory, you can already to that as it is without any additional tweaks and changes to eve. Not that im saying that there shouldn't be new statistics introduced.

3.) Again, many things can be solved by CCP quite easily, as they are geniuses with alot of resources to back them up. And third party programs are not out of the question either.

And yeah you are right about it potentially taking up alot of space on their priority list of things to do, but i still happen to think it is a pretty wise investment, as it is basically a ever growing industry that will give you basically free 24/7 exposure to the public eye.
Kunming
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2011-09-19 07:36:24 UTC
I think the only gripe is that the last one was rigged and rigged fights are always very unsatifiying for the audience, especially if its made obvious.

Well ofc this type of thing belongs to EVE, we backstab each other on a daily basis but they shouldnt have made it obvious or better said CCP (or under whatever they are RPing the tournament) shouldnt have allowed it to be made this publicly obvious and banal.

I participated in the first alliance tournament, got till the finals and I can tell you it was the most exciting thing ever, since we didnt had any arrangements with any opponent and on top of that we had to win because we hadnt even paid for our ships yet.
Garia666
CyberShield Inc
HYDRA RELOADED
#8 - 2011-09-19 07:36:29 UTC
the last tournament was a failscade.

nothing but respect for the players who participated on the tournament.

but how it was set up was terrible couple of matches where fun. but half of the fighst youc couldnt see at all.
And **** like the final is just sad. like getting all horny with a huge boner to find out its a a jungle out there. And quickly trying to get the hell out.

Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#9 - 2011-09-19 07:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Xercodo
michael boltonIII wrote:
I'm not gonna say that I'm an expert on the alliance tournament or anything, but there are big problems with bringing EVE into the world of E-sports.

1.) Equal playing field- In all MLG type games the players involved all have essentially the same resources for playing. In EVE that's just not going to happen. All of the players would have to be given special characters with all V's, infinite money, and be stuck in jove space or on an entirely different server.

2.) Instantaneous games- EVE has no structure to create teams, move players, and measure a victory. Everything you see at the alliance tournament is monitored by a CCP employee(s) in real time. A CCP employee would have to monitor every single individual match to ensure that pilots had the proper number of points, no illegal modules, etc.

3.) Viewing experience- EVE isn't designed to be watched. Ask someone who has never played eve before to watch an AT match. They'll tell you that it's basically a bunch of grey bars turning red with a pretty light show in the middle. Even the experts have to guess at what is happening some of the time because visually it just isn't clear.

The amount of time and money that would have to be invested to make this sort of thing happen is much larger than I think you realize.

(P.S.- I actually am an Alliance Tournament Expert)


1) It doesn't HAVE to be perfectly equal, in the same way that a baseball team has newer and older members and each of them have their own amount of training and practice they put into it EVE can be the same way. We want to be out to prove that smarter players can beat players with more SP then them.

2) Most everything you described wouldn't be too hard to code in except for moving the players, in which case I'd leave alone and let it be their own responsibility to get there. Imagine the e-news that could be generated by a heavy hitting player or FC getting popped en-route to a major tournament by war targets and making their team forfeit :P The interfaces all have the possibility of being done, but I do agree that it would take a bit of man hours and time but it has the potential to be pretty awesome.

3) Give the viewers an unlocked camera to move around and not be locked to an object and see all the participants' health in a similar manner to how it works in the tourny now. This could become an interface for the big screen in CQ (I recall someone mentioning that clicking on the TV could zoom in on it to take up the whole screen essentially letting feel like EVE is being emulated in another layer). As for action the last tourny was rather good at that. They had several camera devs that were able to show the guns firing off and ships approaching and orbiting each other up close while having the main battlefield shown in a window below with tactical overlay turned on....now that was awesome. Individual viewers would get their own control of the camera but when watching a stream of an official tourny that is being commentate I'd imagine you'd have designated camera crew for that who are picked by the hosting entity.

Yes doing what like the OP suggested would take a lot of time and effort but i can be do able.

What I'd love to see as well is Mind Clash in stations , it's like boxing with your mind :P

You could even work the matches that the OP is suggesting into the EVE lore by making it the latest big event for the non-capsuleers to tune into each week with coverage by The Scope and being hosted by some Gallente corp with Quafe and corp recruitment ads in the middle :P

As to the others that complain of the rigged final, tbh I don't think there is anything can or should to prevent that, its up to the participants ot give us the show we want...

The Drake is a Lie
michael boltonIII
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-09-19 11:58:42 UTC
TheExtruder wrote:

You my friend is way to much set on not wanting it to work, several of your points/arguments are things that can be bent and worked around all in the spirit of making a wonderful change to a game that deserves to be played competitively. Let me walk you through the potential loopholes to your otherwise expert opinions.

1.) all skills to 5, infinite money and all that is such a invalid argument i dont even have to explain... if a gang of people with 20 mil skillpoints can totally own a gang of 150 mil skillpoints, with twice as little resources invested in ships/fittings.

2.) Teams can be created (and already are created, just look at all those alliances that participated in the alliance tournaments). To measure a victory, you can already to that as it is without any additional tweaks and changes to eve. Not that im saying that there shouldn't be new statistics introduced.

3.) Again, many things can be solved by CCP quite easily, as they are geniuses with alot of resources to back them up. And third party programs are not out of the question either.

And yeah you are right about it potentially taking up alot of space on their priority list of things to do, but i still happen to think it is a pretty wise investment, as it is basically a ever growing industry that will give you basically free 24/7 exposure to the public eye.


You really don't understand what you're asking for here. Of course someone can setup their own small tournament and officiate, but if you want frame an AT type event as a potential E-sport then it needs to fulfill some basic requirements.

First, there are no professional e-sports that allow any sort of inequality between players aside from their individual skill. Could you imagine if CS players could run 5% faster because they started playing a year before the other team? It simply would not fly. Also, I can assure you that skillpoints make a big diffrence in the AT I can think of at least 4 matches that were lost because of the lack of a lvl V skill.

Second, CCP can't commit the weekends and afternoons of 15-20 devs and GM's every time there is an MLG or other e-sport group event. Make no mistake, the AT is the result of hundreds of man hours. Simply look at the end footage of this year's AT, it took every single person on that screen to organize, officiate, film, and broadcast that tournament. Unless you intend to commit thousands of programming hours to create and entire UI based around 10-man points based teams, then putting on more than one tournament a year really starts to build up.

And Third, designing an entirely new UI for streaming purposes is an incredible undertaking as well. You can't just give people the ability to manipulate their own camera as others in the thread have suggested. E-sports are designed around a single camera stream and using current methods the camera man requires a dev account on a dev machine with a dev ship in system and on grid.

I'd honestly love for EVE to be a fully fledged e-sport, the people who commentate on e-sports get paid for that ****, but I really don't see it happening for quite some time
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2011-09-19 12:30:41 UTC
EVE PvP would be about as interesting to watch as WoW Arena matches.

i.e. pretty atrocious for anyone who has not played the game
Captain Hindsite
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2011-09-19 15:33:43 UTC
Garia666 wrote:
like getting all horny with a huge boner to find out its a a jungle out there. And quickly trying to get the hell out.



wut?
Kumq uat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-09-19 15:50:05 UTC
I know it would make us of the Dystopia team happy for something like this but Bolton is right about some of that. The money factor is quite an issue. I think it could be workable though. An interesting concept to be sure OP and if it could be done I know I and others would love to participate.

It would also give us another chance for Blaster Moas!
TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#14 - 2011-09-19 19:55:16 UTC  |  Edited by: TheExtruder
Ugh
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
EVE PvP would be about as interesting to watch as WoW Arena matches.

i.e. pretty atrocious for anyone who has not played the game


I believe the sci-fi genre is pretty widely recognized and well liked, it will be like flies to a light, there is simply little difference for a sci-fi fan between eve online or being in the habit of watching stars with a telescope.

I don't know about WoW, but i suppose they have their own genre going for them. And honestly there is atleast as many lovers of the scifi genre as there are 'medieval'.. its all a question of smarter ways of reaching out, and competitive gaming is a fairly easy fix all things considered. I say that because the recent eve expansions had little to do with satisfying the needs of existing players, and more to do with making the game more open to the public and new players. Not that im complaning to much, i love the idea of having solid avatars, its a smart move, but enough is enough.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#15 - 2011-09-19 21:03:48 UTC
TheExtruder wrote:
I've tried doing frigate fights in RvB (Red vs Blue) and it was quite fun, we even had fairly regular 10 vs 10 and sometimes even 15 vs 15 frig fights. Fun but eventually it gets boring and one sided. It is hard to arrange bigger ships fights even in a place like RvB, it happens, but not as often as it should (RvB is an alliance/corp that has over 1000+ members combined and is by far the most dedicated place for arranged fights) so if a place like that cannot produce enough of tournaments that we saw on the Alliance Tournaments.

This is the right time for CCP to step in and help the community to arrange some nice tournaments, where commentators and live event broadcasters can make a career out of it. The 'sandbox' population is not yet ready to successfully pull off creating a proper platform for such a business to bloom.
It's just that... it feels so wrong when an organization like Major League Gaming broadcasts a game like League of Legends instead of Eve Online, that just makes me sad because League of Legends must be the most boring looking game i've ever seen broadcasted in the world of broadcasting competitive gaming. I mean if a game such as League of Legends (which is totally a cheap knockoff of DotA) can get into MLG, then I think Eve Online can certainly, with a little effort from CCP can totally pull it off. The sooner Eve Online can get into the world of competitive gaming, the sooner we can expect CCP to stop focusing on expansions that revolve around attracting new players and NPE (New Player Experience). The sooner ccp can focus on all those important balance fixes etc. Its a good strategy, one of those small investments that could potentially turn into a big profit. One thing is for sure, and that is that there is alot of people ready to make those kinds of careers.



RvB is a great thing in eve I agree. Its very existance demonstrates that CCP has neglected creating mechanics that promote small scale and solo pvp. Players who like the eve combat mechanics essentially have to give scouts honor not to do certain things so that small scale pvp does not instantly devolve into blob warfare.

It won't have comentators but if they fix, fw plexing you will be able to get lots of small gang pvp with all different sized ships. The plex mechanics would make the pvp somewhat balanced but not completely pre-arranged.

CCP could allso allow large alliances to buy/construct collesium type structures so they could put on their own tournaments.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-09-19 21:50:25 UTC
EVE AT combat is like the WWF, fake. You will rarely see entire gangs of Machs duking it out with high end faction/deadspace/officer mods, huge isk loss that many but the bravest groups will attempt because it would be difficult to replace it. Warp scram/disrupters prevent escape that are not needed because there is no where to go in Jove space,the only 1/3 PVP mods (MWD/Point/Web) used is the web. Fights are not arranged, they are happened upon and generally one side brings way more then a dozen pilots for some dirty/nasty blob on blob action and capitals are not use tournaments (heh, Supercarrier fights....would be interesting or boring depending on how you look at it). In all regards, it not what you want to be showing off because it gives a bad impression. They are cool and all, but go by so quickly its very boring.

EVE could use a new attraction of arranged fights, such as 2 individuals show up to some system (kind of like how arnon became a minor hub), select a flag, and get a beacon that only they can warp to or get transported to a "wormhole" where no one else can interfere. Kind of like FW, without the podding. Sounds like its against the nature of EVE, but consider it as a "professional" league to compete if you will where someone can burn a few hours of their time that day because they don't want to go roaming, targets dock up, possible chance of hotdrop, station games, ad nausem of stuff that people gripe about and all you really want to do is just have some simple fun without the hassle.
Kumq uat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-09-19 22:56:31 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
EVE AT combat is like the WWF, fake. You will rarely see entire gangs of Machs duking it out with high end faction/deadspace/officer mods, huge isk loss that many but the bravest groups will attempt because it would be difficult to replace it. Warp scram/disrupters prevent escape that are not needed because there is no where to go in Jove space,the only 1/3 PVP mods (MWD/Point/Web) used is the web. Fights are not arranged, they are happened upon and generally one side brings way more then a dozen pilots for some dirty/nasty blob on blob action and capitals are not use tournaments (heh, Supercarrier fights....would be interesting or boring depending on how you look at it). In all regards, it not what you want to be showing off because it gives a bad impression. They are cool and all, but go by so quickly its very boring.

EVE could use a new attraction of arranged fights, such as 2 individuals show up to some system (kind of like how arnon became a minor hub), select a flag, and get a beacon that only they can warp to or get transported to a "wormhole" where no one else can interfere. Kind of like FW, without the podding. Sounds like its against the nature of EVE, but consider it as a "professional" league to compete if you will where someone can burn a few hours of their time that day because they don't want to go roaming, targets dock up, possible chance of hotdrop, station games, ad nausem of stuff that people gripe about and all you really want to do is just have some simple fun without the hassle.


Or you could go do something like that on Sisi. This idea makes no sense.

Tourneys yes, instanced duels no.
TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#18 - 2011-09-25 12:04:44 UTC
There are not very many ways to play Eve professionally, I mean sure you can dedicate yourself to being a ship builder, or a mercenary etc. But playing the game professionally is a whole different thing, because then you are not roleplaying or dreaming yourself into a fictional world, personally I have not once enjoyed the sort of 'rich background' that eve has when it comes to storytelling, and I dont think I am alone, alot of us enjoy the game from a different perspective. I think eve should stop investing so heavily on just the fictional part of the game, and start investing into the competitive part of the game.

esports is quickly becoming a much much bigger platform for entertainment, alot more viewers and fans who enjoy watching all sorts of quality fights. The thing about esports, its not just about the game you are watching, but its alot about the 'gladiators' on the arena who are duking it out. In that sense, I think eve would fit in nicely into esports because there are so many talented pilots out there. But like some people already mentioned it would require quite alot of work from CCP to figure out things like, what kind of new statistics they would need to add into the game, how they would like the tournaments to look like visually, and to figure out how big of an investment it would require for the whole esports department of the company, they would have to hire a whole bunch of new people who are passionate about it (I think this would be the easy part).
Psychophantic
#19 - 2011-09-25 12:20:01 UTC
Hydra put some nails in this coffin.

If I wanted to watch something fake I'd watch WWF. At least they make an effort to put on a show.
TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#20 - 2011-09-25 12:23:44 UTC
Psychophantic wrote:
Hydra put some nails in this coffin.

If I wanted to watch something fake I'd watch WWF. At least they make an effort to put on a show.


Kunming said something similar on this thread, that rigged fights would not be appealing to the audience.

This is not true at all imho. I found the Alliance Tournament broadcasts to be absolutely orgasmic
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