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Titan changes - update

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Ivana Twinkle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2012-03-27 15:55:05 UTC
pmchem wrote:
Greyscale,

Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours.




pmchem made a post that wasn't bad...
RaGodofTheSun
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-03-27 15:56:25 UTC
pmchem wrote:
Greyscale,

Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours.


This man knows what he is talkin about
Treyan Argund
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2012-03-27 15:57:44 UTC
pmchem wrote:
Greyscale,

Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours.


EMPTY QUOTING
Isarian
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#24 - 2012-03-27 15:57:52 UTC
pmchem wrote:
Greyscale,

Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours.


This would be a solid solution.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#25 - 2012-03-27 15:57:52 UTC
pmchem wrote:
Greyscale,

Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours.


I don't entirely understand what you're suggesting here - the hit chance is already scaled based on a comparison of the signature resolution and the target's signature radius. My math is rusty, please explain further.
EnderCapitalG
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-03-27 15:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: EnderCapitalG
CCP Greyscale wrote:
pmchem wrote:
Greyscale,

Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours.


I don't entirely understand what you're suggesting here - the hit chance is already scaled based on a comparison of the signature resolution and the target's signature radius. My math is rusty, please explain further.


I think he means not only hit chance but also damage dealt, but I'm not 100% sure.

E: So that Titans can't apply their full damage to say, a Rifter (which is stupid)
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2012-03-27 15:59:42 UTC
So the titan nerf is posted. Dozens of posts are made explaining how the nerf is bad because it can so easily be bypassed. And the solution is to soften the nerf?

I don't get it.
Hotaru Yamato
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-03-27 16:00:11 UTC
pmchem wrote:
Greyscale,

Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours.


Good idea.
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-03-27 16:01:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Camios
CCP Greyscale wrote:


I don't entirely understand what you're suggesting here - the hit chance is already scaled based on a comparison of the signature resolution and the target's signature radius. My math is rusty, please explain further.



Possibly he means that in the damage formula there should be an additional factor that depends only on the sigRadius/sigResolution ratio.

The current formula has this, but it is combined with transversal velocity, and that means that if transversal is null then the sigRadius/sigResolution ratio does not matter.

In fact, this is the reason why you can use alpha effectively.
Sverige Pahis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-03-27 16:02:12 UTC
pmchem wrote:
Greyscale,

Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours.



This is good.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2012-03-27 16:03:39 UTC
If you are going to do this then you will also need to split off the XL gun into a category used by Dreadnaughts and Titans. Otherwise the Dreads will be inadvertently nerfed.
Mar Drakar
LDK
#32 - 2012-03-27 16:05:37 UTC
Camios wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


I don't entirely understand what you're suggesting here - the hit chance is already scaled based on a comparison of the signature resolution and the target's signature radius. My math is rusty, please explain further.



Possibly he means that in the damage formula there should be an additional factor that depends only on the sigRadius/sigResolution ratio.

The current formula has this, but it is combined with transversal velocity, and that means that if transversal is null then the sigRadius/sigResolution ratio does not matter.

In fact, this is the reason why you can use alpha effectively.


does it really matter if you hit a fly with a car (hello ww beattle aka XL blaster) or just a rock.... a fly is still squashed.
Ivana Twinkle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2012-03-27 16:06:57 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
If you are going to do this then you will also need to split off the XL gun into a category used by Dreadnaughts and Titans. Otherwise the Dreads will be inadvertently nerfed.


Currently dreads cant hit the broad side of a barn anyway.
The Crimson Invaider
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-03-27 16:08:01 UTC
pmchem wrote:
Greyscale,

Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours.

+1
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-03-27 16:09:51 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
pmchem wrote:
Greyscale,

Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours.


I don't entirely understand what you're suggesting here - the hit chance is already scaled based on a comparison of the signature resolution and the target's signature radius. My math is rusty, please explain further.


In the current formula, if target transversal is zero and the target is within falloff range, then the exponent in chancetohit = 0.5^(exponent) will be zero and the chancetohit will be = 1.

However, if you added a new term in the exponent (or as a prefactor), then you could have it so chancetohit is less than 1 if the turretsigres is much larger than the targetsigrad. For example, add a third term to the exponent where the value of the term is zero if targetsigrad > turretsigres, and a large number when targetsidrad is zero. This value would have to be added, not multiplied (as is done in the first term in the exponent). If you wanted to do this as a prefactor, you would have a smoothly decaying function where if targetsigrad > turretsigres the function = 1, but if targetsigrad = 0 then the prefactor = 0. This is often done in classical molecular dynamics for cutoff or switching functions. I could write up a couple example formulas for either case if you're interested, (but it may take me a bit, I have work too!).

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-03-27 16:11:13 UTC
Honestly I don't think there is a solution to this problem, except the introduction of a specific hard counter to "groups of" titans.
Triskian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-03-27 16:11:15 UTC
pmchem wrote:
Greyscale,

Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours.


I wish I could give more than one space like to this.
Kyle Myr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-03-27 16:11:25 UTC
Honestly, Shadoo's post in the previous thread said it best. Give Titans a role that doesn't involve rapidly killing sub caps, which would be useful in a capital fleet, or mixed sub capital fleet. Removing the scan resolution change but keeping the maximum targets and tracking changes seems like a reasonable start for making Titans something that can be used mostly against large single targets. However, people better at gameplay mathematics have put forth a good conceptual solution that would complement those changes:

pmchem wrote:
Greyscale,

Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours.


This seems like a reasonable way of handling XL turrets on Dreadnoughts and Titans.
Max Butched
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-03-27 16:13:06 UTC
i think its time to say something like :
umad ?
:smug:
king of space
tears
and so on
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#40 - 2012-03-27 16:14:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
CCP Greyscale wrote:
pmchem wrote:
Greyscale,

Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours.


I don't entirely understand what you're suggesting here - the hit chance is already scaled based on a comparison of the signature resolution and the target's signature radius. My math is rusty, please explain further.


As I read it, he's suggesting introducing a [target sig radius] / [turret sig res] function into the tracking formula used by XL turrets only. The effect would be to cap maximum damage from a single shot based upon the quotient of [target sig radius] / [turret sig res].

For example, with this in place, if a XL gun of sig res 1000 m shoots a cruiser of sig radius 100 m, then the maximum damage dealt could not be more than 10% of theoretical maximum. If 10% was decided to be still too high, then adding a power function could reduce it further. Watch those MWD sig blooms, heh.

A straight sig radius cap like this is already used in the missile damage formula, preventing large missiles from ever doing full damage to targets possessing a sig radius smaller than the missile's explosion radius. It works well there and I don't see any particular problems here.

Someone mentioned the effects on Dreads. Dreads shouldn't be shooting subcaps either really, so NBD.