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Dear CCP Soundwave: RE: income adjustment

Author
Copine Callmeknau
Dirty Vagrants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#21 - 2012-03-27 09:07:38 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:

Because being able to reside in high sec with near-zero risk and make similar amounts of money to people residing in low/null facing moderate-high risk is not balanced.


They shown that Jita is the system in game where the most ships get popped. Does it mean people should get substantial rewards in there? Twisted

Maybe, if the number that were popped was a substantial percentage of the traffic through the system.

Risk isn't about ship death alone, a more accurate representation would be ship death per capita

There should be a rather awesome pic here

Zhade Lezte
#22 - 2012-03-27 09:11:04 UTC
Nex Onerios wrote:
You said that there is no reason to go in Low/Null sec but don't forget these tech moons (and all the others) for example. But yeah most of the bigger Aliance don't let the base grunt see the color of this money (RMT ?). Alliance wide Null sec reward A LOT more ISK than high sec missions / Incursions !

If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !


Tech moons are getting nerfed, stop beating the dead horse.
Rico Minali
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-03-27 09:23:27 UTC
Nex Onerios wrote:
You said that there is no reason to go in Low/Null sec but don't forget these tech moons (and all the others) for example. But yeah most of the bigger Aliance don't let the base grunt see the color of this money (RMT ?). Alliance wide Null sec reward A LOT more ISK than high sec missions / Incursions !

If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !



As a ceo in a large nullsec (and tech owning) alliance, but not part of its high command and therefore with no access to teh tech isk, I can assume you actually arnt a nullsec player and believe alot of propoganda about nullsec and tech moons.

Tech moons produce too much isk, everyone knows this and moons should be more balanced. However in teh CFC there are auditors who will come to your alliance and check all the accounts if there is any suspicion its leaders are embezzling or missusing funds.

At my level (pvp corp ceo) I see where the isk is being used, sov costs, supers provided for corps, srf funds, capital ship assistance and a dozen other places, in FA the accounts are transparent, as I believe the rest of the cfc's to be.

A dozen tech moons will produce many billions of isk a month, however, the above costs soak up ALL that isk in a large alliance and is used (in the cfc at least) for teh benefit of everyone, right down to the frontline grunt, in fact the largest part goes to supporting him on the frontline. Remmeber those billions are being spent across many dozens of systems and many thousands of players. Unlike say the hisec incursion runner who can easily pocket 20 billion isk a month if he wants to, just for himself. The isk in alliances flows, teh isk in incursions and hisec isk farming doesnt flow, it sits in fat wallets that just get fatter.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-03-27 09:26:43 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:
Nex Onerios wrote:
You said that there is no reason to go in Low/Null sec but don't forget these tech moons (and all the others) for example. But yeah most of the bigger Aliance don't let the base grunt see the color of this money (RMT ?). Alliance wide Null sec reward A LOT more ISK than high sec missions / Incursions !

If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !



As a ceo in a large nullsec (and tech owning) alliance, but not part of its high command and therefore with no access to teh tech isk, I can assume you actually arnt a nullsec player and believe alot of propoganda about nullsec and tech moons.

Tech moons produce too much isk, everyone knows this and moons should be more balanced. However in teh CFC there are auditors who will come to your alliance and check all the accounts if there is any suspicion its leaders are embezzling or missusing funds.

At my level (pvp corp ceo) I see where the isk is being used, sov costs, supers provided for corps, srf funds, capital ship assistance and a dozen other places, in FA the accounts are transparent, as I believe the rest of the cfc's to be.

A dozen tech moons will produce many billions of isk a month, however, the above costs soak up ALL that isk in a large alliance and is used (in the cfc at least) for teh benefit of everyone, right down to the frontline grunt, in fact the largest part goes to supporting him on the frontline. Remmeber those billions are being spent across many dozens of systems and many thousands of players. Unlike say the hisec incursion runner who can easily pocket 20 billion isk a month if he wants to, just for himself. The isk in alliances flows, teh isk in incursions and hisec isk farming doesnt flow, it sits in fat wallets that just get fatter.


Very true. I don't know about other alliances, but corps and alliances I have been in have very strict and in place ship replacement and alliance protocols. The specialty and high cost primaries have to be kept in steady supply and arent cheap. If alliance isnt able to replace or somehow keep peeps in the fight, wont be a fight for much longer.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Haikato Saraki
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-03-27 09:44:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Haikato Saraki
Quote:

now i'll ask my question again why should my income be near zero? oh you should know what zero means after all your an economics major,now if you can not give me a answer then you and your bit paper are worthless


The sky isnt falling. Your highsec income wont be near zero it will be 10% less than it is now. If -10% of your current income = nearly 0 then your doing something wrong or need to go back to school and learn some basic math.

Quote:
Nullsec and wormholes: rewards at 90% of current amount.
Lowsec: rewards at 75% current amount.
Hisec: rewards at 50% current amount.


We can talk about re-balanceing latter. This is about the isk that is made every time someone shoots a rat.
(For the record, most of the isk comes from nulsec. Just saying.) source - http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9115

Quote:
If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !


Perhaps the economic major could explain to you the difference between a money generator and a money mover. Tech moons do not MAKE isk. They MOVE isk from the hands of people who want moon goo to those of people who have moon goo.

Every time you kill a rat, you create isk out of nothing. Before you killed that rat, that isk did not exsist in game. THIS is what is causing inflation, NOT moon goo. Get with the program.








Look, ideally CCP could update the AI and update the spawn systems and update all the pve content in EVE as a whole... but lets face reality here. That is a monolithic task. This situation, while not a sucking chest wound as "he-who-shall-not-be-named" (I actually just cant spell his name) might have put it, but it is fast becoming a problem and something needs to be done about it. A global 10% reduction is the most immediately obvious place to begin, after that we can address the rest of the problems that have led up to this moment. Risk/Reward, Highsec/Lowsec/Nulsec, incursions and sanctums, all these are issues that should be addressed AFTER an income adjustment.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#26 - 2012-03-29 19:18:10 UTC
Jas Dor wrote:
I'm not sure a reduction in bounties would really do much to handle inflation (seriously we had a 1300% increase in the money supply and 24% price deflation). On the other hand, when it doesn't work it'll eventually make a nice economics paper.

Go ahead and do it, just don't do it again (and again, and again) if it doesn't work the first time.


We didn't have anywhere near a 1300% increase in the money supply after you factor out the perma ban accounts, the unubs, etc
Still I have not hear annoucement 1 of what form the new or increased ISK sinks will take the form of. I'd like to see a new 10% concord implants costing 2.5 billion ISKies and 500k lp as an example of a new ISKy sinks any other ideas? Like what would the NULL SEC & wormhole ISK sinks be wormhole stabilizer BPC's being offered by the pirate faction stores such as Sansha?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-03-29 19:24:47 UTC
they need to encourage risk more, create new low sec options. Hi sec is decent. Isk doesn't come from nowhere. Every isk in eve was from a mission or a bounty or some npc action. On the other hand if i titan is destroyed every isk ever earned that was spent on that titan is now completely gone.
Capacity gear
True Terraners
#28 - 2012-03-29 19:28:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Capacity gear
Haikato Saraki wrote:


Perhaps the economic major could explain to you the difference between a money generator and a money mover. Tech moons do not MAKE isk. They MOVE isk from the hands of people who want moon goo to those of people who have moon goo.

Every time you kill a rat, you create isk out of nothing. Before you killed that rat, that isk did not exsist in game. THIS is what is causing inflation, NOT moon goo. Get with the program.

adam smash
Department of Gub'nent Welfare
Harkonnen Federation
#29 - 2012-03-29 19:28:25 UTC  |  Edited by: adam smash
all you null bears and your risk vs reward...

Please... you rat in ******* titans how much risk do you REALLY have?

You can run your plexs, making billions all you need to do is watch local for anyone NOT a blue.
You can rat... with HUGE rewards, + officer, faction spawns... in HS... we get what... 10k isk rats in high?

incrusions again... in low/null you run when you see a nuet... in HS you never know when someone will come in and jam you out... and you also make more isk...

I mean lul wtf...

Mining is the best... with all the ganking in high... your 20 times safter in null/low as... o ****... again the SECOND you see a red/nuet in local you know your in danger... however again in high... you always have the nuets in local with you... you never know if one is gona be a ganker or not.

If ccp wants to keep killing eve... sure make it even harder to make money... thus buy ships, mods, etc... make the game more like a job and more people then quit.

If ccp wants to make HS make less isk... well then make it safer, lower concord times, etc...

And yep this is from a HS ganker...


To say highsec is safer than your null homes?

If anything lowsec needs a HUGE isk buff...

Can't build supers, can be attacked by them... very hard to point.. and destory...

Risk of being in low seems WAY higher than the reward...

NERF FIGHTER BOMBERS IN LOW.
Avila Cracko
#30 - 2012-03-29 19:29:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Avila Cracko
I don't think that 10% is enough.
Reduce it 15% so that you are sure it helps but through all the board.
Once 15% is better then two times 10%, and first time people will bite their tongue and will not yell much but second time - riots, here we are.
And increase taxes on all things, especially for changing the price of market orders!!!

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-03-29 19:32:14 UTC
Capacity gear wrote:
Haikato Saraki wrote:
[

Perhaps the economic major could explain to you the difference between a money generator and a money mover. Tech moons do not MAKE isk. They MOVE isk from the hands of people who want moon goo to those of people who have moon goo.

Every time you kill a rat, you create isk out of nothing. Before you killed that rat, that isk did not exsist in game. THIS is what is causing inflation, NOT moon goo. Get with the program.




erm,. tech moons don't make isk? are you nuts?

sure its not a bounty prize for the goo,. but to say they don't generate isk is a gross simplification beyond ignorance

you sir are a buffoon!

No, that statement is entirely accurate. For all the tech moons currently being exploited not a single isk is being injected into the game. I actuality some is being removed through market taxes and fees as they are traded for isk that was already injected from some other source.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#32 - 2012-03-29 19:32:54 UTC
Nex Onerios wrote:


If you want to reduce ISK faucet start with the tech moons !


/facepalm - not sure if trolling or truly that dumb.

No tech moon has ever spilled one single isk into eves economic system.

Their effect as an isk faucet is exactly zero.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#33 - 2012-03-29 19:35:04 UTC
Capacity gear wrote:
Haikato Saraki wrote:
[

Perhaps the economic major could explain to you the difference between a money generator and a money mover. Tech moons do not MAKE isk. They MOVE isk from the hands of people who want moon goo to those of people who have moon goo.

Every time you kill a rat, you create isk out of nothing. Before you killed that rat, that isk did not exsist in game. THIS is what is causing inflation, NOT moon goo. Get with the program.




erm,. tech moons don't make isk? are you nuts?

sure its not a bounty prize for the goo,. but to say they don't generate isk is a gross simplification beyond ignorance

you sir are a buffoon!




Tech moons are a type of mineral faucet not a isk faucet... They still are a very important part of the economy and are a factor in inflation just like oil is an important factor in RL economies because it's used in almost everything in manufacturing
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Capacity gear
True Terraners
#34 - 2012-03-29 19:36:44 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Capacity gear wrote:
Haikato Saraki wrote:
[

Perhaps the economic major could explain to you the difference between a money generator and a money mover. Tech moons do not MAKE isk. They MOVE isk from the hands of people who want moon goo to those of people who have moon goo.

Every time you kill a rat, you create isk out of nothing. Before you killed that rat, that isk did not exsist in game. THIS is what is causing inflation, NOT moon goo. Get with the program.




erm,. tech moons don't make isk? are you nuts?

sure its not a bounty prize for the goo,. but to say they don't generate isk is a gross simplification beyond ignorance

you sir are a buffoon!

No, that statement is entirely accurate. For all the tech moons currently being exploited not a single isk is being injected into the game. I actuality some is being removed through market taxes and fees as they are traded for isk that was already injected from some other source.



yeah, your right, my mistake, i did make slight edit to post,. years of tech ranting installed tech = isk in my head,. but you are right, it doesn't, i apollogise
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#35 - 2012-03-29 19:38:09 UTC
Burn Jita and Drone Region nerf all in the same week.

Ill be having popcorn and various odd end ships for sale.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Serene Repose
#36 - 2012-03-29 19:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
You'll see a temporary shift in numbers, but your solution doesn't address the root cause. Madflation will return. It's futile to change things by ten percent, or even twenty. If you can't control the money supply at the source (printing and issuing currency gauged by economic indices) then you can't control inflation. Simple as that.

Put another way: If CCP juggles the values and actually solves inflation without addressing money supply directly, they'll win the Nobel Prize for Economics and end up in the history books. They will also be the salvation of the free world, and provide a means for all destitute nations to rise to prosperity...it's that kind of thing.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-03-29 20:01:37 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
You'll see a temporary shift in numbers, but your solution doesn't address the root cause. Madflation will return. It's futile to change things by ten percent, or even twenty. If you can't control the money supply at the source (printing and issuing currency gauged by economic indices) then you can't control inflation. Simple as that.

Put another way: If CCP juggles the values and actually solves inflation without addressing money supply directly, they'll win the Nobel Prize for Economics and end up in the history books. They will also be the salvation of the free world, and provide a means for all destitute nations to rise to prosperity...it's that kind of thing.

Since the nerfing of bounties directly affects the creation of isk, doesn't that count as an effect on money supply?
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#38 - 2012-03-29 20:35:52 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
You'll see a temporary shift in numbers, but your solution doesn't address the root cause. Madflation will return. It's futile to change things by ten percent, or even twenty. If you can't control the money supply at the source (printing and issuing currency gauged by economic indices) then you can't control inflation. Simple as that.

Put another way: If CCP juggles the values and actually solves inflation without addressing money supply directly, they'll win the Nobel Prize for Economics and end up in the history books. They will also be the salvation of the free world, and provide a means for all destitute nations to rise to prosperity...it's that kind of thing.

Since the nerfing of bounties directly affects the creation of isk, doesn't that count as an effect on money supply?



One number I've love to see is the ISK bounties in NULL versus HI versus WH versus LO to really see who is making the best per capita
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#39 - 2012-03-30 09:43:21 UTC
equcin meey wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:

Because being able to reside in high sec with near-zero risk and make similar amounts of money to people residing in low/null facing moderate-high risk is not balanced.

Fixing this would involve either reducing high-sec income, or boost null/low income. We don't want to contribute to massive inflation so the logical choice is to nerf high-sec income

Now why don't you tell me why you as a high-sec player should be able to earn the same amount of ISK as I do, when you are near iinvulnerable and I am at constant and pervasive threat of expensive death.


see Misanth this is how you do a construction reply with an answer instead of a bitter old vet that seem to hate all that the current game has now but is still happy to play hmm oh and waving a bit of paper to say your did something.

i don't believe i should earn more isk than low sec,WH space an 0.0 but i also don't believe i should earn near zero and neither is high sec near zero risk.


You and Chokichi Ozuwara seems very angry, and lacking a sense of humour, I even put in that extreme 'bittervet' and 'economic major' there to make it painfully obvious, yet you both just took the pain and ignored the obvious..

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-03-30 09:50:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
On the other hand if i titan is destroyed every isk ever earned that was spent on that titan is now completely gone.


Nope, the ISK is in the hands of the different players along the chain that ultimately led to the titan being built.

It actually injects ISK in the form of an (albeit hilariously low) insurance payout.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration