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My Apology

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Princess Bride
SharkNado
#761 - 2012-03-27 03:59:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Bride
Powers Sa wrote:
Princess Bride wrote:


Wow, you really can't distinguish between in-game and real life, even now. Let me try to explain this to you:

Real life player/person == CAN commit suicide in REAL LIFE
Toon/character/Macinaw pilot == Pixels. In-game. Can only biomass.

You did not encourage a toon to biomass. You asked a bunch of people to encourage a REAL LIFE person to commit REAL LIFE suicide.

And now, instead of expressing concern for the PLAYER, you focus on his in-game activity with a very thin veneer of masked contempt. He's not an Eve player to you and certainly not a real person. You refer to him as "the miner". "A Macinaw pilot". A "Macinaw miner". Less than. A "pubbie."

A normal person in this situation would at least try to contact this guy and apologize privately and personally. I'd suggest Skype (you have a chan don't you?) Maybe you could both sign a NDA. But you're not a normal person, are you? You're The Mittani, king of the goons, CSM chairman, Mr. "deal with it"...admitted sadist. Thanks for the new black eye you've given my favorite game, Mr. Chairman.

And reversing yourself now saying. "I am not a sadist?" How do you reconcile that with bragging about being a sadist in your own campaign thread? You said, quote:

i sling mud, i scam supercaps, and i'm a sadist, this isn't new or particularly interesting

So was that roleplaying, in your CSM campaign thread? Or was that the real Alex, like the guy with the mic?

And if you're going to do a complete 180 on the whole "I'm a sadist, deal with it" tip, how can anyone trust that any part of your apology is sincere?

(Before anyone says that was in-game, roleplaying, or the like you should read the convo in its entirety in his thread or in convo format here.)

he told people to go the guy up :psyduck:


No. He told people to go find the guy and "make the guy kill himself".

Quote:
As part of the talk, Alex aired a private correspondence in which a victim revealed that he'd been severely depressed following a divorce and expressed suicidal thoughts. "We're sure that he's not dead," Alex flippantly remarked during the talk before adding that "he might have committed suicide."

While a flippant remark that the victim may have killed himself could possibly be seen as drunken banter intended to embellish the impact of the story, later in the talk Alex actually gave the name of the pilot and encouraged players to harass him in order to make him commit suicide. "Incidentally, if you want to make the guy kill himself, his name is [redacted]," Alex said, adding that "he has his own corp. Find him." The entire talk was watched by a packed room of Fanfest attendees and streamed live to thousands of players at home. Alex told players to "deal with it" when complaints surfaced on the EVE forum.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/03/26/ccp-investigates-player-panel-that-encouraged-cyber-bullying/

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
Jonatan Reed
Wildcard.
Boundary Experts
#762 - 2012-03-27 03:59:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Dalketh wrote:
Powers Sa wrote:
de4deye wrote:
Convincing someone to commit suicide is not a laughing matter, mittani - you are a monster. Being drunk is not a sufficient excuse for your actions, there are no excuses here. A smug apology will not simply get you off of the hook.

What was smug about it? It seems pretty genuine to me. I've pretty much dropped all trolling in this thread because the kneejerking is pretty epic.



Says a goon.


Ok, well I'm the anti Goon (pro-BOB, pro-Tri, pro-MC, pro-PL, etc) and I think the damn thing is about as genuine as is possible. Was it over the line? Yes. Was it apologized for? Yes.

CASE CLOSED.

-Liang


yay! logic!

ELITE PVP, WHADDUP
JTK Fotheringham
Ducks in Outer Space
#763 - 2012-03-27 04:01:29 UTC
London wrote:
While I can respect your apology toward this person and the community, this is somewhat contrary to what you said on the EVE Fly Reckless podcast a few months ago. You stated that you don't "role-play" in EVE and that the character you portray is essentially who you are in real life. :/




The Mittani wrote:


deal with it~
Theodoric Darkwind
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#764 - 2012-03-27 04:01:40 UTC
de4deye wrote:
There is a saying that "The real you comes out while you are drinking". If so, is this what you have been like this whole time, Mittani? You may think it is funny to make fun of suicidal people, mittens, but I assure you people's lives are not a joke. I also cannot believe the amount of people on this forum defending mitten's horrendous behavior.


Not that you can call yourself impartial. Your alliance would love nothing more than to get mittens kicked off the CSM. So anything you say is pretty much politically motiviated.
Jonatan Reed
Wildcard.
Boundary Experts
#765 - 2012-03-27 04:02:22 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
Powers Sa wrote:
Princess Bride wrote:


Wow, you really can't distinguish between in-game and real life, even now. Let me try to explain this to you:

Real life player/person == CAN commit suicide in REAL LIFE
Toon/character/Macinaw pilot == Pixels. In-game. Can only biomass.

You did not encourage a toon to biomass. You asked a bunch of people to encourage a REAL LIFE person to commit REAL LIFE suicide.

And now, instead of expressing concern for the PLAYER, you focus on his in-game activity with a very thin veneer of masked contempt. He's not an Eve player to you and certainly not a real person. You refer to him as "the miner". "A Macinaw pilot". A "Macinaw miner". Less than. A "pubbie."

A normal person in this situation would at least try to contact this guy and apologize privately and personally. I'd suggest Skype (you have a chan don't you?) Maybe you could both sign a NDA. But you're not a normal person, are you? You're The Mittani, king of the goons, CSM chairman, Mr. "deal with it"...admitted sadist. Thanks for the new black eye you've given my favorite game, Mr. Chairman.

And reversing yourself now saying. "I am not a sadist?" How do you reconcile that with bragging about being a sadist in your own campaign thread? You said, quote:

i sling mud, i scam supercaps, and i'm a sadist, this isn't new or particularly interesting

So was that roleplaying, in your CSM campaign thread? Or was that the real Alex, like the guy with the mic?

And if you're going to do a complete 180 on the whole "I'm a sadist, deal with it" tip, how can anyone trust that any part of your apology is sincere?

(Before anyone says that was in-game, roleplaying, or the like you should read the convo in its entirety in his thread or in convo format here.)

he told people to go the guy up :psyduck:


No. He told people to go find the guy and "make the guy kill himself".

Quote:
As part of the talk, Alex aired a private correspondence in which a victim revealed that he'd been severely depressed following a divorce and expressed suicidal thoughts. "We're sure that he's not dead," Alex flippantly remarked during the talk before adding that "he might have committed suicide."

While a flippant remark that the victim may have killed himself could possibly be seen as drunken banter intended to embellish the impact of the story, later in the talk Alex actually gave the name of the pilot and encouraged players to harass him in order to make him commit suicide. "Incidentally, if you want to make the guy kill himself, his name is [redacted]," Alex said, adding that "he has his own corp. Find him." The entire talk was watched by a packed room of Fanfest attendees and streamed live to thousands of players at home. Alex told players to "deal with it" when complaints surfaced on the EVE forum.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/03/26/ccp-investigates-player-panel-that-encouraged-cyber-bullying/


the comments on that article are absolutely ******* golden.

ELITE PVP, WHADDUP
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#766 - 2012-03-27 04:02:24 UTC
EnderCapitalG wrote:
You. You there.

Cipher something. Yeah you.

Stop posting the truth, it really hurts me on the inside. I try to pretend it doesn't using sarcasm as my proxy, but everyone with an I.Q. of over 95 can clearly see right through me like the lingerie in a Mexican whorehouse.


I'll work on that for you.



internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#767 - 2012-03-27 04:02:51 UTC
Selinate wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Selinate wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:


How would this do anything but disenfranchise 10,000 people who voted for him. Oh wait it wouldn't. But then this isn't really about telling people to harass someone who is perfectly ok, not actively killing themselves, and 10bil richer.

I mean the timing on this whole thing is comical.

Lets drop the bullshit pretense about him being a bad goonie man who you don't like and get down to the nitty gritty: No one was harmed. Someone came out richer.

I doubt a single person who voted for him is protesting, and it seems to me that the loudest complainers are the people who voted against him.


I really didn't give a crap about who the goons scammed or what actions they took in game before today. I've scammed people in Eve also. It happens.

No one was harmed this time, but using this as an excuse is just a ridiculous copout that refuses to address the real issue. I don't care that this is Eve. Actions like what happened at the panel shouldn't be tolerated. Period.

Also, I never voted for CSM because I really couldn't care less about it. I play Eve my way. That's it.

But keep on trolling, using straw mans, ad hominems, it only furthers my original response that an apology and a relatively small isk donation is really just not enough for this type of behavior.


And what is the real issue, exactly?

EDIT:

Other than the wrong guy winning the CSM.


If you lack the ability to read, that's your problem. It's right there in my post.


You used a lot of fuzzy language. Also first rule in debating, never use "But"

It negates either everything before or after it, which is doubly amusing when you accuse someone else of a straw man.

"No one was harmed this time, but "

~heh
de4deye
Phantom Space
Space Madness.
#768 - 2012-03-27 04:03:14 UTC
The reality is that a person's life matters much more than this game, no matter how much goon trolls want to try to cover up these posts. This is not a 12 step program, it doesn't matter that mittens was drunk - it is no good excuse to make fun of a suicidal person. Mittani knew what he did was wrong, which is why he is trying to cover his tracks with a quick and simplistic "I was drunk, wasn't my fault, I'm a victim too" excuse.
Kai Tel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#769 - 2012-03-27 04:03:28 UTC
Well, I could quibble but it's a well written apology and the ISK compensation is soooo like a damages payment. I just wish I could feel that it was a sincere gesture to the damaged rather than an "oh god pay him off before I get jail time" kind of thing.

However, if Mittens did and has a history of taking in game activities and then trying to use them against someone in real life like with the cyber-brothel mentioned above... That's a whole new can of worms ready to be opened. It's just like threatening to hurt someone in real life after getting ganked in game. You are taking it too far and are liable! You don't destroy real life over mmo game lulz.

You see cyber sex crap in about every MMO now. Its childishly stupid but there are a lot of horny nerds not getting any in the real world and they need a steam release valve too. Very few games have age check utilities to keep it regulated and I would be concerned about it happening in EVE for that reason. Minors shouldn't be exposed to that kind of sick. Report to GM. But don't write their real life family and bosses as their life is likely bad enough.

It's a ******* game played for fun. Sure own em in PVP but don't go trying to take their RL job or play clock work orange with their sister too...
Onix Pokemon
prime coates Manufacture Corporation
#770 - 2012-03-27 04:03:35 UTC
My faith in our dear leader never wavered even as I watched this over the livestream.

Long live The Mittani.
JTK Fotheringham
Ducks in Outer Space
#771 - 2012-03-27 04:04:04 UTC
Jonatan Reed wrote:


the comments on that article are absolutely ******* golden.


The Mittani wrote:


deal with it~
Dalketh
DRRUSSEL
#772 - 2012-03-27 04:05:05 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Dalketh wrote:
Powers Sa wrote:
de4deye wrote:
Convincing someone to commit suicide is not a laughing matter, mittani - you are a monster. Being drunk is not a sufficient excuse for your actions, there are no excuses here. A smug apology will not simply get you off of the hook.

What was smug about it? It seems pretty genuine to me. I've pretty much dropped all trolling in this thread because the kneejerking is pretty epic.



Says a goon.


Ok, well I'm the anti Goon (pro-BOB, pro-Tri, pro-MC, pro-PL, etc) and I think the damn thing is about as genuine as is possible. Was it over the line? Yes. Was it apologized for? Yes.

CASE CLOSED.

-Liang



Wow lost all my respect with that one Liang - so do anything say anything but if you apologize all is fine? Can't believe you said something like that. It's the opposite of what I thought of you. :/
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#773 - 2012-03-27 04:05:29 UTC
de4deye wrote:
The reality is that a person's life matters much more than this game, no matter how much goon trolls want to try to cover up these posts. This is not a 12 step program, it doesn't matter that mittens was drunk - it is no good excuse to make fun of a suicidal person. Mittani knew what he did was wrong, which is why he is trying to cover his tracks with a quick and simplistic "I was drunk, wasn't my fault, I'm a victim too" excuse.


He never said that, he said "What I did was inexcusable".

Also no one died.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#774 - 2012-03-27 04:05:57 UTC
Dalketh wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Dalketh wrote:
Powers Sa wrote:
de4deye wrote:
Convincing someone to commit suicide is not a laughing matter, mittani - you are a monster. Being drunk is not a sufficient excuse for your actions, there are no excuses here. A smug apology will not simply get you off of the hook.

What was smug about it? It seems pretty genuine to me. I've pretty much dropped all trolling in this thread because the kneejerking is pretty epic.



Says a goon.


Ok, well I'm the anti Goon (pro-BOB, pro-Tri, pro-MC, pro-PL, etc) and I think the damn thing is about as genuine as is possible. Was it over the line? Yes. Was it apologized for? Yes.

CASE CLOSED.

-Liang



Wow lost all my respect with that one Liang - so do anything say anything but if you apologize all is fine? Can't believe you said something like that. It's the opposite of what I thought of you. :/


I know I can't believe anyone would ever be anti goon.
Selinate
#775 - 2012-03-27 04:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Selinate
SmilingVagrant wrote:


Quote:
If you lack the ability to read, that's your problem. It's right there in my post.


You used a lot of fuzzy language. Also first rule in debating, never use "But"

It negates either everything before or after it, which is doubly amusing when you accuse someone else of a straw man.

"No one was harmed this time, but "

~heh


It doesn't negate anything before or after, and I didn't use any "fuzzy language". Again, if you lack the ability to read, that really is your problem.
Kitfox Mikakka
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#776 - 2012-03-27 04:06:52 UTC
de4deye wrote:
The reality is that a person's life matters much more than this game, no matter how much goon trolls want to try to cover up these posts. This is not a 12 step program, it doesn't matter that mittens was drunk - it is no good excuse to make fun of a suicidal person. Mittani knew what he did was wrong, which is why he is trying to cover his tracks with a quick and simplistic "I was drunk, wasn't my fault, I'm a victim too" excuse.


Except he said his drunkenness is no excuse for how he acted in the ******* apology. It'd be awesome if any of you people bothered to read his post instead of immediately coming in to crucify a guy who's genuinely sorry about ******* up.
Xpaulusx
Naari LLC
#777 - 2012-03-27 04:07:09 UTC
Ok, the guy was drunk, what he said was outta line, he apologized, as punishment i want mitty to write on the blackboard 100 times " I will not drink more than i can handle". As far as stepping down the answer is no, he stays.

......................................................
Jacob Staffuer
Doomheim
#778 - 2012-03-27 04:07:30 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
This has been hanging over my head since Thursday when I stumbled away from the Alliance Panel with a vague sense that I had done something horrible. I didn't know the extent of how much of a shitheel I had been until today, when footage of the presentation went up. As many of you now know, I gave out the in-game character name of a Mackinaw miner if anyone had wanted to blow him up - except that I was so smashed that I didn't recall exactly what I said (as anyone who was there can tell you). When I came to the forums the other day and saw threads complaining about my behavior - not remembering what I'd said - I assumed that I was enduring the usual anti-Goonswarm trolls, and posted something like "deal with it~" in my usual "The Mittani" way.

Then I landed, and saw the article listing my actual quote.

Christ.

I feel absolutely ashamed of my behavior at the Alliance Panel. It's one thing to play a villain in an online roleplaying game - when I post on these forums or on twitter, I usually do so as 'The Mittani', and do my level best to convince everyone that I'm an unrepentant space villain, as that kind of facade provides an in-game advantage to me and my alliance. But I am not that character in real life, as anyone who has met me can attest. I went way, way, /way/ past the line on Thursday night by mocking the Mackinaw miner at a real-life event. I, as a person, am not the entity that I play in EVE; I am not actually a sociopath or a sadist, and I certainly don't want people to kill themselves in real life over an internet spaceship game, no matter what I may say or do within the game itself. CCP may say 'EVE is Real', but EVE is not real - and the line between the game and reality should not be overstepped.

I'm relieved to discover that the Mackinaw miner is doing fine and mining away, despite being blown up by Goonswarm in-game. He deserves, and he has, my heartfelt apologies - here in public as well as a private apology. There's no excuse for what I did - while some might try to use my inebriation as a mitigating factor, I put myself in that compromised mental state, and the guilt of that is entirely mine.

If I could go back in time and not have included the slide mentioning the miner, I would do so. While the Eve Online character "The Mittani" would never apologize for any sort of villany in game, I myself, as Alex Gianturco, feel utterly ashamed and sickened by my behavior.


Oh nice, the whole "I was drunk and I don't remember what happened" defense. You know I saw that video - you weren't drinking that much.

The fact is, whether it's a game or not, it's still you doing it, and you're doing it to a person. True - people in EVE need to develop a certain callousness towards risk and loss; who hasn't been suicide ganked and lost a valuable batch of ore or a BPO? You learn to accept the fact that loss and risk is part of the game, and I would dare say that for some of us this risk enriches the game experience. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose, etc etc. You jump through a gate, and some pirates explode you. You talk some smack, they lolumad? and you move on.

There is a line that Goonswarm crosses. You take it way too far. Yes, EVE is a dark, hostile game, yadda yadda bla bla - but it's still people playing it, and you never know who is behind the computer screen. I'm not telling Goons to stop what they do (I admit it can enrich the game), but Goons take to a level that is far and beyond fun. Do you really have to sit there and spam someone's inbox with smacktalk trying to make them feel like ****? Whether it's on a computer game or in real life, it's still real people doing it to real people. No matter how you try to justify it, it makes you a piece of ****, end of story.

Think of it this way: Nobody really likes Goonswarm, and Goonswarm has thus far been protected by it's size. If it was only a 10 man Corp pulling the stunts it does, you'd all be quickly rerolling to hide yourselves. But you just saw that not even a 6, 10, or 20 thousand man alliance can protect you from stepping up to the line and leaping over it like you did.

Good riddance, and I hope you've learned a valuable lesson.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#779 - 2012-03-27 04:07:37 UTC
Selinate wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:


Quote:
If you lack the ability to read, that's your problem. It's right there in my post.


You used a lot of fuzzy language. Also first rule in debating, never use "But"

It negates either everything before or after it, which is doubly amusing when you accuse someone else of a straw man.

"No one was harmed this time, but "

~heh


It doesn't negate anything before or after, and I didn't use any "fuzzy language". Again, if you lack the ability to read, that really is your problem.


Look at you :3
JTK Fotheringham
Ducks in Outer Space
#780 - 2012-03-27 04:08:17 UTC
Kitfox Mikakka wrote:


Except he said his drunkenness is no excuse for how he acted in the ******* apology. It'd be awesome if any of you people bothered to read his post instead of immediately coming in to crucify a guy who's genuinely sorry about ******* up.


The Mittani wrote:


deal with it~