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Scarlet Letters and Botters

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OfBalance
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-03-27 02:40:22 UTC  |  Edited by: OfBalance
Sisohiv wrote:
The only benefit that could come from this would be the resale value.

Three stars is bann so when selling a Char you look for no star chars.


Hi, welcome to over a week ago when it was announced that characters flagged for botting were bound to their account and unable to be sold.

Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:
Sreegs, I'd like to put my support behind the scarlet letter idea.

Why? Because it feels like Eve. No other reason.

In Eve's fictional background, AI research is strictly frowned upon due to its tendency to spontaneously assert sentience, mutilate its creators, and fly off to nowhere. It stands to reason that CONCORD would look very un-kindly upon attempting to automate not a simple drone, but a fully functional and tactically terrifying capsuleer warship. As such, CONCORD flags these individuals who irresponsibly surrender their ship controls to crude AI, and flags them for capsuleer termination in the name of maximum efficiency.


Good post.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#42 - 2012-03-27 02:40:36 UTC
Pampers Toralen wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Pampers Toralen wrote:
This the distraction from the mittens thread? Any word from ccp about the issue



There's plenty of other threads to post in about this. Leave mine alone PLEASE.


Wow Someone's crankey just posted here yes there is many threads but lack the blue mark from a ccp employee has posted
Fixed your post also thing called manners?


Please refer to the forum rules regarding on topic posts in reference to manners. <3

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#43 - 2012-03-27 02:41:26 UTC
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
But I could argue that there are plenty of other deterrents in place. This one has the additional negative of also providing a disincentive for turning into a Good Guy, which is something we've been trying to prevent.

This is a pipe dream, and you guys keep protecting and trying to reform criminals are doing it at the expense of existing players and future participants in Eve as well.

You know what Facebook does when they take action? No appeal.

Google? No appeal.

The evidence needs to be solid, but if someone is botting, they need to be thrown out of the game because they are potentially ruining the experience for thousands of other players (butterfly effect and all that jazz).



Neither of those companies makes a videogame so what is being botted? I'm missing you here and I really don't want to be.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-03-27 02:42:22 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Being familiar with how things work you know I'd just make a corp and publish the info using some really cool API app. :(

I agree with the spirit but the devil is in the implementation.


I don't get it - who would shotgun apply to every corp in sight if their account was flagged for botting?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#45 - 2012-03-27 02:42:50 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
AkJon Ferguson wrote:
I think 'behave for a year and the letter goes away' is a decent enough incentive to straighten up and fly right.


This would be a solution to the 'preventing them from becoming a good guy' problem. They indeed need to be publicly shamed for participating in the destruction of our market though.

oh and if we see some guy ratting in our 0.0 belts who logs out every time we enter system... we'd be able to report them easier if they were marked this way.

CCP's own deterrent isnt really enough. Does CCP monitor botters that have been caught on a regular basis? I really doubt it. But us players could.


This is gone over in the presentation but reported bots do matter. We've also decided to start removing all profits gained when we ban them so there's the market adjustment.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#46 - 2012-03-27 02:44:00 UTC
Andski wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Being familiar with how things work you know I'd just make a corp and publish the info using some really cool API app. :(

I agree with the spirit but the devil is in the implementation.


I don't get it - who would shotgun apply to every corp in sight if their account was flagged for botting?


So the flag would only be available upon application and not just generally to all CEOs? I may have missed that and this intrigues me.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2012-03-27 02:44:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jada Maroo
Does anyone seriously think shaming is any sort of deterrant in Eve?

If I'm making phat isk doing something you don't like, you think wagging your finger is gonna stop me? Lol
Ohh Yeah
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#48 - 2012-03-27 02:45:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ohh Yeah
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Being familiar with how things work you know I'd just make a corp and publish the info using some really cool API app. :(

I agree with the spirit but the devil is in the implementation.


I don't mean that CEOs should be able to pop open someone's info and see their strikes.

I mean that when a player puts in their application to a corporation, the server checks for strikes, and if strikes exist, they are mentioned as a warning in the application management interface for the corp CEO/Directors.

The only time that a marked player would be standing on the gallows in the rain like Hester Prynne is when they put in their application to a specific corporation.

I'm not familiar with the current API, but I don't believe any fancy API apps currently allow you to see strikes against an account, so I assume that information is not publicly available.

If you you get what I'm saying.

Edit:


CCP Sreegs wrote:

So the flag would only be available upon application and not just generally to all CEOs? I may have missed that and this intrigues me.



Yeah, that's exactly the idea.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#49 - 2012-03-27 02:45:13 UTC
Sisohiv wrote:
The only benefit that could come from this would be the resale value.

Three stars is bann so when selling a Char you look for no star chars.


There is no resale value as these characters can't be sold legally.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#50 - 2012-03-27 02:46:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
The Letters would not really add anything other then placating the current masses with real names to focus rage on rather than a graph of arbitrary lines.

Perhaps a list of the permanently banned. (concord list of revoked capsular licenses and a termination of clone usage) It saves face to the recently punished yet not deleted offenders.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#51 - 2012-03-27 02:46:58 UTC
Ohh Yeah wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Being familiar with how things work you know I'd just make a corp and publish the info using some really cool API app. :(

I agree with the spirit but the devil is in the implementation.


I don't mean that CEOs should be able to pop open someone's info and see their strikes.

I mean that when a player puts in their application to a corporation, the server checks for strikes, and if strikes exist, they are mentioned as a warning in the application management interface for the corp CEO/Directors.

The only time that a marked player would be standing on the gallows in the rain like Hester Prynne is when they put in their application to a specific corporation.

I'm not familiar with the current API, but I don't believe any fancy API apps currently allow you to see strikes against an account, so I assume that information is not publicly available.

If you you get what I'm saying.

Edit:


CCP Sreegs wrote:

So the flag would only be available upon application and not just generally to all CEOs? I may have missed that and this intrigues me.



Yeah, that's exactly the idea.


Yeah this now makes a buttload (sorry for the foul language) more sense. BUT LET'S NOT STOP HERE FOLKS

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Pedro Snachez
Red Horse Heavy Industries
#52 - 2012-03-27 02:47:11 UTC
I'm actually against the idea. There was a This American Life episode that talked about a judge that had shoplifters wear signs that said "I stole" out in front of the store they stole from. The results weren't as positive or corrective as one would think. The people that were the worst offenders simply didn't care. Those that had stolen things for fairly understandable reasons (think baby formula) were put through even more shame than necessary.

While this might work most times in real life, it's probably more trouble than it's worth in an MMO. People who are caught and shamed are probably more likely to just quit than to try to "become a better person". That or biomass the character.
Revii Lagoon
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2012-03-27 02:47:43 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Andski wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Being familiar with how things work you know I'd just make a corp and publish the info using some really cool API app. :(

I agree with the spirit but the devil is in the implementation.


I don't get it - who would shotgun apply to every corp in sight if their account was flagged for botting?


So the flag would only be available upon application and not just generally to all CEOs? I may have missed that and this intrigues me.


If CEO's are doing recruitment then they probably need to delegate roles a bit better. Anyone with roles to accept applications should be able to see it. But that isn't enough, most of the time people who apply have already been accepted because they went through the recrutiment process and were already accepted. The actual application is just there because it is necessary, but holds no substance in terms of the recruitment process.

This info being avaliable through the API would be ideal because any sane corp who does recruitment uses the API to check things.
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-03-27 02:49:11 UTC
OfBalance wrote:
Sisohiv wrote:
The only benefit that could come from this would be the resale value.

Three stars is bann so when selling a Char you look for no star chars.


Hi, welcome to over a week ago when it was announced that characters flagged for botting were bound to their account and unable to be sold.

Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:
Sreegs, I'd like to put my support behind the scarlet letter idea.

Why? Because it feels like Eve. No other reason.

In Eve's fictional background, AI research is strictly frowned upon due to its tendency to spontaneously assert sentience, mutilate its creators, and fly off to nowhere. It stands to reason that CONCORD would look very un-kindly upon attempting to automate not a simple drone, but a fully functional and tactically terrifying capsuleer warship. As such, CONCORD flags these individuals who irresponsibly surrender their ship controls to crude AI, and flags them for capsuleer termination in the name of maximum efficiency.


Good post.


You will understand if people miss things on the tickertape forum.
If they are making Bot chars account locked, the motive for flagging them with stars is kind of not there.

Bot bann gets you -10.00 makes more sense.
I wouldn't even bann them. Just run Sec -10.00 and all 4 empires -10.00 on third offence.
Callic Veratar
#55 - 2012-03-27 02:50:16 UTC
I don't think there should be a Scarlet Letter for the first strike. The first strike is a warning design to scare off botting and a message that you guys are watching.

That being said, a large red flashy warning, once the ban is lifted, saying your character will be publicly flagged if you're ever caught again, I see as fully justified.
Tcar
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2012-03-27 02:50:18 UTC

CCP Sreegs wrote:

Yeah this now makes a buttload (sorry for the foul language) more sense. BUT LET'S NOT STOP HERE FOLKS


I still think a list of the permabanned botters would be great. That and the permabanned RMT characters.
Ohh Yeah
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#57 - 2012-03-27 02:50:26 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
BUT LET'S NOT STOP HERE FOLKS


Where else would you envision seeing Scarlet Letters? I'm full of creativity and exceptionally thin semen this evening

The only thing I can think of (as seems to be the general consensus) is allowing CEOs to realize that a botter has applied to their corp.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#58 - 2012-03-27 02:51:24 UTC
Revii Lagoon wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Andski wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Being familiar with how things work you know I'd just make a corp and publish the info using some really cool API app. :(

I agree with the spirit but the devil is in the implementation.


I don't get it - who would shotgun apply to every corp in sight if their account was flagged for botting?


So the flag would only be available upon application and not just generally to all CEOs? I may have missed that and this intrigues me.


If CEO's are doing recruitment then they probably need to delegate roles a bit better. Anyone with roles to accept applications should be able to see it. But that isn't enough, most of the time people who apply have already been accepted because they went through the recrutiment process and were already accepted. The actual application is just there because it is necessary, but holds no substance in terms of the recruitment process.

This info being avaliable through the API would be ideal because any sane corp who does recruitment uses the API to check things.


Every alliance isn't a mega-alliance and the structures can be different. I think you'll find that most corps are actually fairly small.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Revii Lagoon
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2012-03-27 02:51:58 UTC
Sisohiv wrote:

You will understand if people miss things on the tickertape forum.
If they are making Bot chars account locked, the motive for flagging them with stars is kind of not there.

Bot bann gets you -10.00 makes more sense.
I wouldn't even bann them. Just run Sec -10.00 and all 4 empires -10.00 on third offence.


Terrible idea, most bots operate in 0.0 anyways so it would do nothing.
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2012-03-27 02:52:03 UTC
As a CEO, I'd much rather have a Corp Thief tag if we're gonna have any at all.