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Orbital Bombardment Discussion

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Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#61 - 2012-03-26 20:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
I have a mechanics question.

I'm an avid Halo player. Lag is a straight up killer. I don't even want to play a laggy game... at all. EvE is different so it's not really as big an issue in big fleet fights, and time dilation is just awesome. Truely... so nice work there. Now for the question:

What happens if you are sitting in siege in your dread above a planet getting ready to nuke the surface and 2000 of your closest friends warp in and the system goes into time dilation? What happens on the ground in DUST? Are the DUST players on the same tranquility node?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
eliorra
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2012-03-26 20:55:34 UTC
quickshot89 wrote:
Just thought of another feature, and it would help give some love to under-used ships,

Let EW frigs help boost the effectiveness of the strike, by fitting something like a target painter but a planet version


And also give them the ability to destabilize the OB for a moment.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#63 - 2012-03-26 21:52:38 UTC
Another thing to possibly suggest.

Specialzied ammo just for orbital bombardment thats generally useless for anything else.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#64 - 2012-03-26 22:11:46 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
I want the properties of the weapons I am using to have a visible effect on the bombardment FX.

So I can use a rainbow tachyon abaddon to nuke people.

A rainbow barrage of death would indeed increase morale on the side using it on their enemies.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#65 - 2012-03-26 22:16:55 UTC
One thing is also that accuracy of the hit should depend on your gunnery skills, with poor skills you shoot all over the place and with good skills you actually hit where you're supposed to.

This would :
a) Tie orbital bombardment to EVE skill system
b) Would mean that DUSTies would have to consider when and where they should call in the strike and whether the caller might get his ass in line as well, exactly like when calling artillery/air craft support fire in RL.

Also there should be possibility that if EVE side isn't on the ball they might shoot too late ... or too soon or even shoot the wrong target.
This would make it so that EVE and DUST players would have to really communicate with each other and it would also give EVE players a feeling that it does matter where and when they are shooting.
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2012-03-26 22:17:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Camios
The "only battleships and bigger" thing

From a "common sense" standing point, OB should be restricted to the longest range guns, that is only L and XL long range guns should be able to do OB.

On the other side anyway it would be cool if even frigates were able to shoot at the surface, while dealing little damage.

Perhaps, the damage should be calculated as if you were shooting to a ship in space at the same distance.
You should be near enough to acquire lock, so frigates should go really near the surface while battleships could saty far.

The planet rotation problem

Planet rotation will move the battlefield under the ships, but that is not a great concern (fleet will just have to warp in and out). The biggest inconsistency I see is that the "orbital command center" should stay above his district, and so it should move because of planet rotation... that thing will move faster than a Dramiel... don't know if that is something CCP wants to be in the game, it just breaks immersion.

=> The easiest thing is to just stop planet rotation, and have a random planet rotation happen during downtimes in order to have artificial day/night cycles on Dust maps.
Ibn Taymiyyah
eM' Roid Extraction Services
#67 - 2012-03-26 22:22:06 UTC
There's two key points missing in all this. Where and why!

I'm assuming OB will only be possible in Low/null/wh space.

TL;DR; PI isn't all that valuable to justify all this conflict. There wont be that much fighting unless they open it up to highsec and it's legion of griefers! :D



Where? Nullsec (except WH and NPC space) is heavily regulated in access, and it's more than likely that the guys on the same planets you're in are in your alliance. You're not going to attack your alliance mates, unless you're trolling and just want to nuke everyone from orbit! :D Lowsec might have something going except the fact that it's deserted, and having people constantly attacking you will put alot of people off, leading to more highsec crowding.

The point I'm getting at, is that the conflict will be minimal due to the fact that the people that operate in that space (null and lowsec) are probably the same occupying the planet and not likely to attack their neighbour.

Why? Is the PI reward actually worth all this trouble? Sure, it's expanding PI, but honestly, if PI can one shot a BS, I'm not even going to deal with that crap. Even more so, if you're attacked in null, it's likely that you just had you ass handed to you and/or your alliance fail cascaded, in which case, you don't really (really! :P) want those planets anymore!

Sure, it's all fun to start with and everyone will be killing dust pawns from orbit ... but what for? :| I think CCP is giving way to much credit to PI as a conflict driver in all of this.

My idea of a perfect conflict driver in all of this? Have dust crews invade outposts so you can actually destroy them. Destructable outposts with the need for Dust! I'm sure there's tons of alliances that would hire tons of dusties for this purpose :D


Not trying to rain on anyones parade with all this, but my guess is that PI will not compensate all the work you have to put in just to be able to nuke someone :|


Anyway, on the meta gaming frame of this, please allow the EVE pilot to target either the intended target, or the "ally" that is painting the target, making it easier to back stab merc clans! :D Make it fair and allow them to shoot your ass out of the sky while being friendly! I love the blue on blue fire kind of grief :D
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#68 - 2012-03-26 22:27:38 UTC
Well, the platform is likely on stationary orbit just like the satellites on earth so considering that your ship is on the same orbit it would seem to be staying in fixed position while rotating with the planet.

As far as tracking formula goes there could be a random transversal velocity rolled for each hit and otherwise use a standard tracking formula, this would of c. mean that missiles would be very pin point weapons but with very slow traveling time (think of moon probing ...).
Damage should scale as usual so that if you hit the planet for 1000 it should obviously hit with bigger force then a hit with only a 100 damage (saying 10x as big might be too big for the scope of DUST).
Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#69 - 2012-03-26 22:48:11 UTC
Ibn Taymiyyah wrote:
There's two key points missing in all this. Where and why!

I'm assuming OB will only be possible in Low/null/wh space.

TL;DR; PI isn't all that valuable to justify all this conflict. There wont be that much fighting unless they open it up to highsec and it's legion of griefers! :D



I would suggest making PI a bit more profitable (than it currently is) in low sec which will draw more people into low sec and provide more opportunities for fights between the attackers and defenders. The sov restrictions in null are an issue, and well it sucks shooting stuff in high sec.

The POCOs in low sec have been a decent source of fights, and I could see orbital bombardment adding some great small fleet conflict opportunities.

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon
Akai Kvaesir
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
#70 - 2012-03-26 23:11:38 UTC
Y'all are forgetting FW. Inferno is (from what I've read/seen) centered on expanding faction warfare, and since it (and Escalation) are also both lead-ups to DUST, I think it's safe to assume there will be a decent FW connection.

That said, it'll depend on what they will end up doing to FW, in terms of making it suck less. I can see a decent amount of DUST matches played on planets along the empire borders, which incidentally is mostly losec.

In terms of OB, I think that the idea of a siege module that was not necessarily ship-restricted (but heavily CPU dependant, forcing a ship to be geared for either space OR ground war, so you can't have blob OB's. The idea of FX for the spool-up, shot, and target cam is also a great one, especially considering the DX11 tech video from FanFest...Also, ION CANNON FTW. Just like Titan OB should be a game-ending shot, the Ion Cannon, if present, is the ultimate ship killer. That way EVE can end a match, and DUST can give an EVE player a really bad day...just an idea on the balancing.

I think restricting OB to battleships only weakens the link you want between EVE and DUST, but there should be restrictions within reason. There should be a variety of roles to play in the OB meta-game, such as Destroyers being capable of close air-support/resupply (like in the video from FanFest), or T3 strat cruisers capable of logistic support/fire support/cov-ops support (ie dropping Dusties behind enemy lines), depending on the subsystems used. Unless frigates can go sub-orbital (which would be too cool for words), I would think only Stealth Bombers would be capable of OB bombing runs, or torpedoing heavy vehicles like tanks or MTACs. Battlecruisers and Battleships should be the main focus of raining death from above, ie providing the main fire support of Orbital Bombardment. Dreads... Dreads and other Caps should be like mobile deathstars, supplying logistics support and the ultimate in fire support. But again, high risk, high reward....

Just a thought.

Frogblast the Vent Core! When the W'rkncacnter came, Pthia was killed, and Yrro in anger, flung the W'rkncacnter into the sun. The sun burned them, but they swam on its surface.
Ibn Taymiyyah
eM' Roid Extraction Services
#71 - 2012-03-26 23:14:01 UTC
Yeah, PI will have to turn into a real ISK faucet to drive the type of conflict I think they're expecting. Anyway, as long as I can nuke anyone (including my own guys), I'm a happy camper :D

Damn, I'd sacrifice a couple of Megas just to see the tears on that chat when I nuked my team back to orbit! :D
Sturmwolke
#72 - 2012-03-26 23:53:47 UTC
Have some tangible/persistent planetary impact for orbital bombardments, not just the battlefield. A resource depletion or some sort of economic impact.
You can probably split orbital bombardments into tactical and strategic elements - whereas the latter will "glass" large swaths of the planet.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#73 - 2012-03-27 00:08:02 UTC
Ibn Taymiyyah wrote:
Yeah, PI will have to turn into a real ISK faucet to drive the type of conflict I think they're expecting. Anyway, as long as I can nuke anyone (including my own guys), I'm a happy camper :D

Damn, I'd sacrifice a couple of Megas just to see the tears on that chat when I nuked my team back to orbit! :D


Lets take the e3 2011 trailer as a rough example of price point.
Infantry assault armor 375,000 isk
Heavy Gunnlogi tank 1,400,000 isk
ROV Drone 4,400,000 isk.
Installation Railgun turret, 1,000,000 isk
MCC 120,000,000 isk

Yet they wont be seeded to EVE market for a long time tell DUST gets properly interwoven as FW Dust seems to be very disconnected from the universe for launch.
Some game types will always have a MCC at the brink of destruction. And we will likely see these products being much cheaper.

Plus it seems you can only nuke your own guys if the guy on the ground targets his own people currently. Betrayal of this sort will likely be saved for sov 0.0 Dust and FW will be the "highsec" of Dust.
Celestine Polel
Without the Daystar
#74 - 2012-03-27 00:19:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Celestine Polel
Perhaps just have permanent warp-ins above every planetary district, potentially on the overview? let any old ship turn up their any time of day to have a look. I guess in a fairly abstract sense, moons are a warp-ins on a planet too.

Having dust players broadcasting the warp-ins to their support fleets (both defence and offence) seems a bit forced. Pilots should know where the major districts on planets are (or it should be in their computer systems). I mean, its not like finding New York or LA from orbit would be that hard.

An idea just occurred to me though: further down the track covert-ops locations in Dust that eve pilots do need a broadcast warp-in for... things like secret research outposts etc.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#75 - 2012-03-27 00:39:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Celestine Polel wrote:
Perhaps just have permanent warp-ins above every planetary district, potentially on the overview? let any old ship turn up their any time of day to have a look. I guess in a fairly abstract sense, moons are a warp-ins on a planet too.

Having dust players broadcasting the warp-ins to their support fleets (both defence and offence) seems a bit forced. Pilots should know where the major districts on planets are (or it should be in their computer systems). I mean, its not like finding New York or LA from orbit would be that hard.

An idea just occurred to me though: further down the track covert-ops locations in Dust that eve pilots do need a broadcast warp-in for... things like secret research outposts etc.



The problem is the potential number is districts per planet and the fact they revolve. The real question is a solution without a ton of overhead.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#76 - 2012-03-27 00:49:42 UTC
Fidelium Mortis wrote:
A few things I would like to see with Orbital Bombardment:

1. Bombardment seige module - 2-5 minute cooldown - don't make it ship specific but rather have a fairly high CPU requirement, so you could have some novelty fits with stacked Co-Processors or something.
2. Bombardment specific weapons and ammo - only operational in siege mode
3. Sub-optimal surface to air defenses that are optimized by Dust/EVE player cooperation - basically a reverse of the orbital bombardment mechanic.
4. ECM or ECCM deploy-able structures for Dust players that would jam the link for orbital bombardment


Bombardment Badger Anyone? Pirate

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#77 - 2012-03-27 02:24:56 UTC
If you go with the module for disctrics idea.

Armor plates protect the facility better against orbital strikes. (thus not as damaged and easier to repair)

Shields protect everyone on the district from orbital strikes.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#78 - 2012-03-27 02:26:05 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Ibn Taymiyyah wrote:
Yeah, PI will have to turn into a real ISK faucet to drive the type of conflict I think they're expecting. Anyway, as long as I can nuke anyone (including my own guys), I'm a happy camper :D

Damn, I'd sacrifice a couple of Megas just to see the tears on that chat when I nuked my team back to orbit! :D


Lets take the e3 2011 trailer as a rough example of price point.
Infantry assault armor 375,000 isk
Heavy Gunnlogi tank 1,400,000 isk
ROV Drone 4,400,000 isk.
Installation Railgun turret, 1,000,000 isk
MCC 120,000,000 isk

Yet they wont be seeded to EVE market for a long time tell DUST gets properly interwoven as FW Dust seems to be very disconnected from the universe for launch.
Some game types will always have a MCC at the brink of destruction. And we will likely see these products being much cheaper.

Plus it seems you can only nuke your own guys if the guy on the ground targets his own people currently. Betrayal of this sort will likely be saved for sov 0.0 Dust and FW will be the "highsec" of Dust.


Goal 1 Stabelize the game
Goal 2 After game stability THEN open the flood gates.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Logan LaMort
Screaming Hayabusa
#79 - 2012-03-27 03:13:30 UTC
  • Stealth Bombers - With a paper tank and devastating bomb launchers I think SBs should be able to deliver a small scale nuke, or ECM type bomb.
    • Think the OB power of between a battleship and a dread that could easily be shot out of the sky before delivering an OB. Of course the SB would need to decloak and stay uncloaked for a certain amount of time to keep things balanced, but if that bomb gets launched... well...

    it's the only way to make sureCool

  • Missiles? - I would love to see a Raven or Typhoon launch a bay of missiles directly down to a planet.

  • Killmails - If an EVE pilot kills a Duster via OB I'd like to see that EVE pilot get a killmail. Likewise if a Duster shoots down a Capsuleer via ground defences.

    • Imagine looking up a player's killmails to see just how many Dusters they've nuked from orbit. Obviously these would be displayed separately to EVE ship/pod kills.

  • Scorch marks - If a planet receives a heavy amount of OB it would be cool to see some kind of mark left behind on the planet, or maybe see the large scale weapons produce a mini mushroom cloud.

  • ECM OB - Like I mentioned with SB, an OB doesn't have to be purely lethal. Imagine an area effect ECM, like disabling deployed structures and vehicles (Dropships falling out of the sky anyone?).

  • Racial OB - Artillery, rail slugs, missiles and laser effects please.

Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#80 - 2012-03-27 03:20:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Logan LaMort wrote:

  • ECM OB - Like I mentioned with SB, an OB doesn't have to be purely lethal. Imagine an area effect ECM, like disabling deployed structures and vehicles (Dropships falling out of the sky anyone?).


ECM would be keeping planetary turrets from getting us in EVE.
EMP would be stalling most ground equipment. Drone dropships are iffy on this, as lore wise because of their over throttled magnetic tractor to haul heavy combat units, its AI and flight controls are heavily shielded. Perhaps if a Drone dropship was under 50% health it would succumb to a EMP attack.